Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi All,
I've had a pair of pyros down in the mid-high 40's since early Dec. Can I pull them up now or should I keep them down a little longer? I've heard that better fertile results can be had if this species is kept in brumation longer than the standard 12-14 weeks. Last year, the pair was seen breeding, but no eggs came of it, although it was the first year that the female could have possibly gotten gravid.
Best...
Jim

>>Hi All,
>>I've had a pair of pyros down in the mid-high 40's since early Dec. Can I pull them up now or should I keep them down a little longer? I've heard that better fertile results can be had if this species is kept in brumation longer than the standard 12-14 weeks. Last year, the pair was seen breeding, but no eggs came of it, although it was the first year that the female could have possibly gotten gravid.
>>Best...
>>Jim

Here's an opinion based on moderate experience and extensive conversations with others more experienced: The longer the brumation, the better.

fwiw, i kept mine down for 17-21 weeks and all of the males i used (two albinos, a hypo het/albino, and an "anery" or hypoerythristic) produced high sperm-count samples on at least a couple of occasions (it's diff to express the samples from pyros, compared to hondos, i suspect that the occasions that don't yield good samples are the result of "operator error" (my collection methods) rather than the snakes'--in other words, the males are probably always doing THEIR jobs--if several of a male's samples show high counts then he's probably always depositing good sperm, i'm just not finding/seeing it. )

i've also learned from others to keep a pair together longer than with hondos (with hondos, i might put them together, observe mating behavior, copulation, and separation, all in as little as half an hour or an hour or two, and then return them to separate cages; with the pyros there may be no apparent interest or activity for many hours, but in the middle of the night or the next morning or afternoon i may find them lying together or breeding. Give them time together.

Oh, and start putting them together shortly after you've taken them out of brumation. One experienced breeder said he's even seen breeding IN brumation. I began putting them together immediately, and saw copulations beginning about 3 weeks later: all but one of my females bred before their first sheds--that is, their first sheds will be their pre-laying sheds.

Hope that helps. Take your time, and let us know how it goes.

peace
terry dunham
albino tricolors

I bred Pyros years ago before most folks succeeded. My early success was entirely due to the breeding vigor of the animals I was lucky enough to work with, not my own talent, but I did get a start, and with more breeders to work with, I produced over 100 pyros in the 80's and early 90's.

I like to brumate mine for as long as I can just to get a break from maintenance, but I take them out by the end of Feb. I put them together pretty soon, after the females have eaten maybe three times, sooner if they look well-fleshed. My pyros enthusiasm ranged from immediate to taking several days to copulate. I have sometimes re-introduced a female after removing her for a few days, but after I got into the groove, I'd just observe one or two copulations, or leave them together for two or three days, and separate them--that does it if you have healthy animals.

Pyros lay small clutches--six was my largest, although knoblocki lay more--I got 12 last year from my oldest girl. Pyro babies are larger than knob babies, but more of a pain to feed, sometimes. With all the babies I had, I got the habit of holding back only those that ate pinks from the start--too much bother feeding baby lizards and scenting the food. If you get one that you just have to hold back and it refuses all food, try force-feeding it mouse tails--they have a trace of calcium as well as a bit of meat, and they go down pretty smooth--the right shape, and all. Insert the section of mouse tail into the snake with the hair pointing the correct direction to facilitate smooth passage. Hopefully, after half a dozen fedings, the little snake will get hungry on its own and start eating something less hassle-ichious (I'm sure it's a word!).

Pyro eggs shouldn't be incubated much over 79-80 degrees, IMO. My early incubations produced some spinal deformities that wound up as food for snake-eating snakes--most heartbreaking. Be patient, let the eggs take their time at 78-80, and you should do well.

I started doing this years ago on the theory that in the wild pyros spend most of their time and lay their eggs in underground crevice systems where the temp is a pretty constant 72F. Also the prefered body temp for pyros has been found by several researchers to be 73F. At this temp the eggs take almost 90 days to hatch but the babies are much bigger and fatter than babies incubated at 80F. Those that do not feed for me in a months time are simply put into a 4/12 Mo. hibernation along with my adults and they do just fine. Most also feed right away after coming out in the spring. Interestingly I found this works the same for all mountain kings (alterna, ruthveni, mexicana complex), but when I tried it with warmer climate snakes such as triaspis and sinaloans I got stunted babies.

>>I started doing this years ago on the theory that in the wild pyros spend most of their time and lay their eggs in underground crevice systems where the temp is a pretty constant 72F. Also the prefered body temp for pyros has been found by several researchers to be 73F.

Interesting, Rich, maybe i'll try something in that direction with some of my clutches (I'm in florida, so it'd be real hard to find 73 degrees, but the house is at 78 compared to 80 or 81 in the snake room, so couldn't hurt to keep some of them in the house temps).

any chance you could refer me to any of that research showing 73 to be a preferred temp for pyros?

thanks for the info, always good to hear another way of doing things, keeps the brain working!

terry