Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know that some people have the attitude that the snakes belong to them, so they feel they have the right to hybridize them if they wish. I don't support their stance on the issue, in fact, i'm against it. I am even against breeding siblings together. However, I do support their right (in general) to hybridize if they wish.
But, as old herper said below, these animals are endangered & there is NO reason to own one unless you plan to breed them. I do not believe they should be owned souly as pets. I have purchased my 2 easterns intra-state & have not had to worry about the federal permit process, so I am unfamiliar with it.
Is there a section on the permit pertaining to the intentions of the permitee? If not, do you guys think it should be added or do you feel this is just more needless government intrusiveness?

Eric

There's not really a section on what you plan to do with the snake, and I really don't think there should be. They are more concened what you DO NOT do.

I actually see a lot of better reasons for having the snakes other than breeding them.

They want to make sure that you are not going to release the animals, and you are going to keep records, to prevent people fom catching wild snakes and passing them off as captive bred. They did put in a question about how you plan to keep the genetics diversified if you do breed them. Which I guess eludes to the fact that they may one day rely on breeders for re-populating stock.

I think the general feeling among the feds is that they are not really going to gain anything by having the private sector work with these snakes. Therefore they just want ot make sure you are not going to HURT anything by working with them. I'm not saying I agree with that, but, I think it's fair to say that as a general rule, the USFW folks do not have a lot of faith or confidence in private keepers. After all, they are the ones who catch all the low lifes who black market protected species.

I think keeping a single indigo and teaching people the beauty of these snakes is as valuable as breeding them if not more so in some cases. People need exposure to animals in order to care about them.

I don't feel that everyone needs to be breeding them. More power to them if they want to...but I don't think it should be required by any stretch.

As long as there are a dedicated few...we'll have the data and hopefully the stock we need to keep doing it.

I completely agree....in fact, I am much more willing to donate an indigo to someone who will use it for educational purposes than sell it to a person whose sole intention is for captive breeding. Even though these are endangered species, none of these captively produced animals from the private sector will ever be released; and shouldn't for many reasons....but, the private sector has much to offer and developing sound breeding protocols will serve as valuable tools should a re-introduction effort be necessary in the future. Unless we can adequately trace gene pools and ensure a solid genetic diversity of this species, I am not a big fan of breeding endangered species just because they are endangered and in some way, we feel that we are saving a species. Don't get me wrong, knowing that I am keeping one of our nation's most prized and rare snakes is a humbling experience, but I also know that my efforts are not contributing a lot to their survival (with the exception that I contribute a percentage of my proceeds to couperi research). But, it wouldn't surprise me if a day comes when the only "wild" indigos you see are those kept in captivity; kind of a sad thought. To keep an indigo as a pet is a true honor and I can't think of a better snake to keep as a pet than an indigo....very few snakes make the kind of impression than an indigo does. Even though I am a breeder of eastern indigos, and in some way am coming off a bit hypocritical, I am not a big propoenent of mass breeding efforts of this species because of the temptation for hybridizing; hopefully, the permitting process will weed out those who are not committed 100%.

Rob

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
1401 Middlefork Drive
Lake Forest, IL 60045

Dean, Rob et al...

you are correct, I didn't mean to leave out educational purposes. That is definately as important as breeding.

Eric

Indigo is for EDUCATIONAL purposes. I DO feel privileged to have this magnificent animal as part of my small collection. But taking THIS animal and showing it to kids of all ages in all kinds of different schools will hopefully get at least a few to remember why this magnificent animal needs our protection AND some land in FL & S.GA. AFTER all, the Indigo in my opinion is what the bald eagle is to the bird world!!! A VERY UNIQUE AND BEAUTIFUL ANIMAL! So, instead of breeding - I'd rather spend some of my time doing FREE shows during the year from Elementary schools to High schools!!! I want the world to know. . . . . . . . . . . . . . (snakes ARE good)

(oh by the way: sibling breeding does occur in the wild - more than we like to admit, especially nowadays with all the roads we have)

My 2.5 cents,

Zee

Actually what I said was not that breeding is THE only reason for keeping endangered animals...here's what I said:

"To me, one of the only really valid reasons for having a Threatened or Endangered animal in captivity is to try to propagate that animal in it's pure form in captivity so that one day we may be able to help to preserve the wild populations, especially in cases where the animal is endangered in the wild largely by man's encroachment on it's habitat."

Certainly education is another valid reason to keep them and nobody can deny that many of the things that we know about husbandry and breeding of couperi, as well as many other Threatened and Endangered species came from the experiences of private keepers and breeders. Many may disagree with me and that's the beauty of living in a place where we are all entitled to our own opinions. I do not believe that keeping an animal such as couperi strictly as a pet is a valid reason to keep them. That doesn't mean that I don't think anyone should be allowed to keep one as a pet, just that I don't think it's a valid reason to have it. We do lots of things without valid reasons and as long as it's not HURTING the future of couperi's existence then it's OK. It's just that I think that if we are going to keep them then we have a responsibility to do SOMETHING to contribute to efforts to preserve the species. That could be something as simple as donating money, or something more significant like donating captive bred offspring to the agencies conducting the research or to zoos for public display.

I also don't think that we can say that the Government agencies will never call on the private sector for animals to use for repatriation projects. I think it could well happen at some point in the future, if it can be shown that the genetic purity has been preserved and the animals are pathogen-free.

At this point, Dean is absolutely correct. The Government agencies in charge of preserving and governing these species do not have an abundance of faith in private keepers and breeders. But, we have historically not given them much reason to have any faith in us. I think that if we show them that we are sincere in our desire to insure the future of these species and do everything we can to assist them in whatever way we can, AND police our own ranks, eventually that attitude will change and we could see a great deal of cooperation between these agencies and the private sector. After all, we do have a common goal.

Hybridization, especially in regards to a critically endangered species is very real and has been addressed in the "real world" on more then one occasion.
Okay, I know this is a forum for Drymarchon fanatics, but if anyone needs actual proof of the problems associated with hybrids, one only needs to take a look at Cyclura nublia lewisi (Grand Cayman Iguanas.)
Zoos began acquiring captive-bred specimens of GC iguanas in 1990 in order to develop a managed captive population. Unfortunately, a hybrid problem was discovered in this captive gene pool. Genetic markers for each subspecies, developed by Dr. Scott Davis at Texas A&M University, were used to identify and "weed out" hybrid iguanas, which allowed the program to start over with new stock from known, pure GC iguanas. The remaining gene pool, however, was severely limited, with only three males and one female as potential breeders-not the optimal founder number from which to build a population. Further analysis revealed that this population was descended from one pair of iguanas.
Dr. Ronald L. Carter or Loma Linda University continues the studies initiated in 1990, by Texas A&M, but very few specimens have met the genetic requirements, since the four founder specimens were identified.
If you take a look, you will find a host of people offering hybrid Cyclura. Several have been hybridized to beat USF&W regulations concerning inter-state commerce requirements; others hybridized them simply because there was nothing else to mate them with.
The reintroduction of a species, from captivity into the wild, is not as simple as it may sound. Specimens are not simply rounded up from the ranks and set forth to go free. Suitable habitat must be identified, and then surveyed to ascertain it is conducive for the species to be introduced. Genetical markers must be determined to set criteria for specimens to be considered for such release, and all possible candidates must be tested to ensure they meet these criteria.
Well, I for one have had enough of this hybrid, integrate, intergrades or whatever you prefer to call them discussion. I can only hope the “good fight” has begun soon enough, to ensure that Drymarchon do not meet the same demise as Cyclura iguanids.

Jeff

Jeff Snodgres
University of Arkansdas
snodgresjeffreys@uams.edu
501.526.4856

Jeff,
I'm right with you. Yes, I understand all of the problems associated with releasing captive animals into the wild. However, we know it can be done. For some species it may be the ONLY chance they have for survival. There is no reason that some of these animals can't come from the private sector. The more of them we have in captivity, both in institutions and in private collections, the better chance we have of coming up with viable colonies that are genetically diverse enough to have a chance or re-establishing themselves.

I believe that some of the concern over private breeding is grounded on legitimate issues. It's nothing that cannot be overcome, though. I do believe that a large part of it is, for lack of a better word, grounded on ego. Those people who work in the institutions and Government agencies sometimes have a tendency to dismiss private breeders and keepers out-of-hand as "unqualified amateurs", therefore they cannot possibly have anything to offer. This is a serious mistake, and a large part of the confrontational relationship between these institutions and agencies and the private sector. I'm not saying that the problems are all the fault of the agencies and institutions...far from it. But, the private sector has as much to offer in practical knowledge as the institutions have to offer in academic knowledge. Both are necessary for success. There are some people in the institutions and agencies that do realize the value of working with the private sector, and some people in the private sector that recognize the value of working with the agencies. I think that our collective chances for success depend in no small part on those people.