Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted on talktothefrog as well so I am hoping for some more help.
I have a big eye tree frog that I found this morning in his tank laying on his back. I thought he was dead but he was still breathing. I picked him up and he squirmed a little bit so I put him in some warm water. I now have him setup in a little tank with moist paper towels and a red heat bulb a few inches away. He is just kind of sitting there. Is eyes are wide open and they look fine. Lately I noticed that he is skinnier then his tank mates, so I started hand feeding him with tweezers and he has eaten. He is in with 3 other frogs in a 30xh with bed-a-beast fake plants, uv and an incadescent bulb his humidity and temps are fine. I am worried about him and I don't know what to do for him. I want to try to make him better. He was having some problems breathing at first but I think that was just from shock or something b/c he is breathing fine now. He moves a little but not much and like I said his eyes are wide open. He does look like he is bloated or something. Please help me make my frog better.

Christina
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1.1 Russian Tortoise (Willy & Mikey)
0.1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1.0 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
0.0.2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
0.0.1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
0.0.2 Big Eyed Tree Frog
0.0.2 Bubbling Frog
0.0.2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
0.0.3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
0.0.1 Dwarf Megophrys
0.0.2 Rainbow Burrowing Frog/Ornate Hopper
0.0.3 Asian Blue Webbed Gliding Tree Frogs
0.1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
0.2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
0.4 mice (Gabby and friends)
0.1 dog (Holly)
2.0 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband

Sounds like he is on the way out, a humane euthanasia would be to use some orajel. Otherwise, don't post here without going to the vet first. You will need to keep an eye on the others.
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...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

It sounds like he may have eaten some substrate possibly. What was the temperature, lighting, etc? They are nocturnal frogs, and if he's awake during the day, there is a problem. Bloating means there can be a number of things wrong, eating substrate is only one possibility. If he has eaten, then that is a good sign. Many big eyed treefrogs, Leptopelis vermiculatus, are wild caught. Wild caught animals can have parasites. If I were you, I'd leave him alone and make sure he eats. Keep him seperate from his tank mates. If he continues to have problems, a way to euthanize any frog is put them in the freezer for a while. Being cold blooded, they will fall asleep and die.

pitcherplant7

2 clawed frogs
2 firebellied toads
1 dart frog (D. tinctorius)
1 goldfish, 2 parakeets, 1 cockatiel, guppies, and lots of carnivorus plants

Pitcherplant7- thank you very much for your help. Unfortunately he did pass a way in teh night peacefully. It just looks like he went to sleep he was in the same spot I left him. I took him to the vet for an autopsy to make sure I don't have to worry about hte other frogs. If you would like to know personally what happens you can message me b/c I REFUSE to post on this forum again. I feel that everybody here is VERY inconsiderate of feelings etc. Not only from reading my own posts but from some of the other posts that I recently read.
But I digress and I thank you again.
Christina
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1.1 Russian Tortoise (Willy & Mikey)
0.1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1.0 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
0.0.2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
0.0.1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
0.0.2 Big Eyed Tree Frog
0.0.2 Bubbling Frog
0.0.2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
0.0.3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
0.0.1 Dwarf Megophrys
0.0.2 Rainbow Burrowing Frog/Ornate Hopper
0.0.3 Asian Blue Webbed Gliding Tree Frogs
0.1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
0.2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
0.4 mice (Gabby and friends)
0.1 dog (Holly)
2.0 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband

I can only assume that you are referring to my remark about not taking the frog to the vet. Tell me, why exactly did you post here instead of taking it to the vet? In hindsight of course, this was a serious condition that was probably the end result of an infection. No home remedies here would have been able to save your frog. With your large collection, hesitation in getting veterinary care will likely result in shortened lifespans in some of those animals.

I truly am sorry that you think that people here are inconsiderate of your feelings, but if that is what you are most worried about, perhaps you are not ready for the reality of keeping live animals and excepting that you may be personally responsible for the occasional death. You have many live animals that are depending upon you for every single need to keep them alive, don't you think it is important to hear it like it really is rather than it being candy coated? The vast majority of deaths of reptiles and amphibians in captivity are directly related to the husbandry.

If many people on these forms did not use this medium as a replacement for proper veterinary care at the expense of suffering animals, then there wouldn't have been the remark I made. In your original post you commented that you want to try to make him better, but you mentioned absolutely nothing about taking it to a veterinarian as if it were not an option.

The symptoms you described are very general and can be the result of many things, I would consider impaction to be the least likeliest cause. You should consider that animal as diseased and that any other animals that have been exposed to it to be carriers. Keep a close eye on the other frogs, if they stop eating or go lethargic, take them to be vet!

Despite the frequent criticisms I get, apparently my strong animal and conservation ethic does not go unappreciated...
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=409455,409974
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Wildlife dies without a sound, the only voice it has... is yours.

...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Yes colchicine I was referring to your remark. And I turned to this forum for some advise on some emergency treatment on what I could do while I was waiting to either get in touch with the vet or see the vet. Not in place of hte vet. I do not trust anybody here any more then my vet. I was looking for that immediate information. Kind of like calling for an ambulance where you get an emt. You get advise and some treatment from him while waiting to see a dr. Don't you.

And not for nothing... you don't know me, who don't know anything about my knowledge of frogs or wildlife. To be completely honest I actulaly MAY know more then you. I work with animals for a living. I take care of them, and I am not just talking about little frogs or farm animals. I am talking about wildlife, owls, hawks, eagles and many reptiles. In fact I am licenscend wildlife rehabilitator. So don't tell me that I have poor husbandry skills and that the death of my frog was my fault b/c you are dead wrong... It is not fully determined yet what the final necropsy results are but it looks like he had an infection. That could have come from anywhere. Just like you or I would get the flu, don't always know where you get it from. And yes my frog is going for a necropsy, have you done that? And yes my other frogs are being treated for the same infection b/c more then likely they contracted from him. Not that I really think you care.
So have a nice day and I hope that one day your knowlege will be brought to use as opposed to criticism.

Christina
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1.1 Russian Tortoise (Willy & Mikey)
0.1 Ornate Box Turtle (Lily)
1.0 Red Eared Slider (Chester)
0.0.2 White's Tree Frog (Kermit & Phil)
0.0.1 Red eyed Tree Frog (Justin)
0.0.1 Big Eyed Tree Frog
0.0.2 Bubbling Frog
0.0.2 Tiger Leg Tree Frogs (Akari & Shiro)
0.0.3 Amazonian Milky Tree Frogs
0.0.1 Dwarf Megophrys
0.0.2 Rainbow Burrowing Frog/Ornate Hopper
0.0.3 Asian Blue Webbed Gliding Tree Frogs
0.1 Praire Dog (Timmy)
0.2 Chinchillas (Layla & Snickers)
0.3 mice
0.1 dog (Holly)
2.0 Cats (Champ & Bear)

Oh and a husband

Is freezing really an accepted form of euthanasia? I have a real need to know this (long story involving an animal I don't own). I've heard people talk about it both ways. I guess we can't really know if the animal feels pain or not. Perhaps if you have to do it you should put the herp in the fridge first but I'm still not sure I feel good about it.
(given that I'm brumating some snakes at 50 degrees and they're still concious)
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

Yes, I have used the freezing technique several times. The animal slows down. Freezing is a gradual process, but still quick. Its not like the animal is immediately plunged in freezing water or boiling water. Being gradual the animal adjusts and feels nothing, much like when you adjust to temperature of a bath when its slowly raised. I know it sounds attrocious, but it really isn't. I have left amphibians in a small amount of water in a jar. When the water freezes totally, the animal has passed on. Now, there might be better ways for large lizards or snakes. I don't think that is a good idea to euthanize snakes or lizards, but for amphibians and fish, it works well.

Freezing is NOT a professionally accepted method of euthanasia. ESPECIALLY when there are other really cheap methods that do the job humanely which is why I recommended orajel. The bottom line is that there is no credible evidence to support that the animal dies without pain. It has been reasoned however, that it is possible that the animal experiences the freezing of extremities, but is too cold to react to the assumingly painful stimuli. As Dr Frye says in his book, Self-Assessment Color Review of Amphibians and Reptiles, lowering the body temp doesn't make it insensitive to painful stimuli, it only makes it impossible to react to those stimuli. I hope you will reconsider your methods in the future. The only time I use freezing is when a reptile is unconscious, or in obvious agony and a vet is not accessible.
Link

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Wildlife dies without a sound, the only voice it has... is yours.

...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

By the way, how is orajel administered to animals? Is it oral or actually injected? I will definitely keep it in mind now. About how much is it?

A tube of orajel cost almost 5 dollars, but it will last a very long time obviously if you never have to use it! There are a couple of methods that you can administer this, depending upon the situation but it is always topical. In general, amphibians have what is called a pelvic patch, an area on their stomach that is heavily vascularized that is used for the uptake of water when they are soaking in it. This is the best place to administer it since the frog's body is already set up to absorb things from the area. I've also seen it recommended in the literature that you can dab a small amount just behind the eyes where the brain is with the assumption that the close approximation would cause the quickest rate of unconsciousness. All it takes is enough to cover the area you are applying it to. It will usually turn a thick white color and will take anywhere from 10 to 40 minutes to work depending upon the size of the animal. Obviously the larger the animal the more it will require to be euthanized. After this procedure is done and the animal no longer responds to painful stimuli, it is THEN advisable to freeze the amphibian to make sure it is not just in a anesthesized state.
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Wildlife dies without a sound, the only voice it has... is yours.

...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Sorry you lost your frog. I'm also sorry that you feel you can't post on this forum. On behalf of the people on this forum who are interested in the experiences of others, please continue to post here! I have had a run in with some of the same people on this forum, don't take it personally. If you know you do everything you can for your pets, keep up the good work. Some people get a kick out of talking out of their anal region. Funny thing about that is I actually have snakes that are older than a few of them! Must be my "husbandry"! Good luck with the other frogs, hope they are healthy & happy for years to come!