Reptile & Amphibian Forums

a boy to take herping?Oh well,I love all my girls very much and they all love herping.
p.s.heres a pic of a hypo bullsnake we collected last week in black gap(brewster county) Texas.

shannon

Shannon,

That looks just like the male I've got from down there, but I'd consider it a Sonoran Gophersnake instead of a bullsnake.

Congrats on the daughter! I'm still hoping I'm sterile (as are most people that know me).
KJ

LOL! I'm picturing little KJs running around arguing about localities and gene pools. How could you not want that??? Little chips off the old block .

kj,
I have seen several differant books that have the cut off just south and east of EL PASO and others that say around sanderson?????????????Whatever they are they are very hypo down there.Not all of them mind you.

Did that one from study butte have red transperant checkers on his belly?

shannon

Thanks, everyone. I love the snake, too. Too bad I can't takecredit for producing it - I just possess it now....lol.

Shannon, the ventral patter

I've seen some of the older books that put Sonorans in El Paso, the intergrades in Brewster on up, and then everything else east of that bullsnakes, too. However, my current field guides, Dixon (2000), and Tennant (1998) all put Sonorans somewhere around Brewster, Jeff Davis, and Culberson Counties and to the west. The Intergrades are basically in the counties around the Pecos River. Everything east of that is bullsnake area. I need to double check what is in Werler and Dixon (2000) - I don't remember off of the top of my head. John Cherry and I had a long talk about this. He says he had numerous discussions with Andy Price on Pituophis. According to John, Andy seems to agree mostly with Dixon (2000).

I think Dixon (2000) is probably ourr best reference for this kind of stuff. I don't trust Tennant's "facts" as far as I could throw him unless he agrees with Dixon...lol. Still, to be honest, I had trouble accepting it until I saw some of these guys in person. They are definitely Sonorans and not bullsnakes - not a doubt left in my mind! It gave me a little more faith in Dixon's conclusions. It also means that the Pecos serves as an "inefficient" geographical inhibitor to gene flow. That makes sence since it would slow gene flow, but not stop it, between the eastern and western bank populations. That's why the Pecos turns out to be the intergrade line with different subspecies to the east and west for Pituophis in that area.

KJ

Makes since to me.
The pecos it is.Come to think of it several snake change at about that point?The eastern to western black neck garter comes to mind.
That would also explain the reason they don't find the monsters(8 footers)out in the bend area.About the biggest I have seen is a road kill in the x-mas that was about seven even.

shannon

Shannon,

great to hear about the little one, one bright spot is the old saying " a son is a son till he takes a wife and daughter is a daughter for Life". I have found it to true with my three. So if you can interest one or more of them you will have a herping partner for life. Tell your wife congrats for Cindy and I also.

As far as the sonoran and bull deal, I talked a long time with Dr. Andy Price is the Texas State herptoligist who is a really good guy and has spent considerable time looking at the range. His findings are much the same as mine from haviong looked at, and/or collectted over 400 bulls/sonorans from the areas around the bend in the last 30 years. To me the divison line runs in the band from around just south of sanderson for bulls and just north of Alpine for the sonorans with the intergrade line running in between. Of course this is a mandatory line and that never works. In regards to your animal the sonorans from around the river road on over to persidio lean greatly to the hypo side with beautiful purple blotches in the tail many times. Anyway a beautiful snake to say the least.

Again good and luck and stay in touch.

John

Cherryville Farms

Will you be going to IRBA in July to hang out?

Take Care!

.

Here's a photo of my male. He is a recent adult WC from Brewster County, too. He was from nearer to Study Butte.

Recently killed Sonoran Gophersnake from Brewster County south of Alpine, TX. Photo taken by Daryl Camby. Snake founbd by John and Cindy Cherry, Daryl Camby, and myself.

n/t

Hi KJ
Thats bad as hell . Looks like a Sonoran to me too.
Jason

Great looking snake KJ, really great looking colors. You sure you don't want a few little KJ's running around helping find herps? hahaha, thanks for the great pics, really amazing looking animals.

Have a good weekend,

Gregg F.

Hey Shannon
Congrats . all right, I hope I get to see the little one soon . Nice bull as well .

on your new baby girl. I'm actually awaiting a new baby sister any day now. That is a very nice looking bull too, congrats on a great find.

Have a good weekend and once again congrats on the new baby.

Gregg F.

He decided that his girls could do anything his boys would have done... thus "Snake woman" was born... hehehehehe...

Congrats, but make sure those girls get outside, get dirty, and know how to catch a snake!!

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Bonnie Keller
PH Scales
Kingsnake.com Site Coordinator