Reptile & Amphibian Forums

when i go to mix up my turky do i just add my calcium and vitamins to the turkey for say,,srinkle it all over the turkey and mix it all in, then im good to go ,does that sound like a good idea or is there some secret way that im missing

You have to mix it up exactly the way it's supposed to be mixed or it will cause loose stools.If you have the true recipe,stick to it.Those who say it causes loose stools are making it incorrectly.FR is right though,stick to mice ,rats.chicks.

i do stick to mice rats and chicks i was just want ting to give them somthing for a treat somthing different ...thanks for the replys.

JODY T

If you could please explain to me the meaning of "treat". I do not mean to offend and I truly do not understand it.

When I first started keeping and breeding monitors, I would feed lots of natural prey items, from insects to lizards. With ackies, they would eat lots of different prey types. But preferred lizards and crickets. With one major exception, they loved scorpions, I mean they loved them. Is that a treat. Or Kimberlys, they really loved lizards, but moths, oh man.

But to consider turkey a treat, is odd to me. When I tried it, they ate it because they were really hungry, but did not show any special attraction to it. Am I wrong again? Thanks FR

i have a few monitors and tegus and one of my tegus is the one who i found out who loves turkey he will kill himself trying to get at a dish of it he just seems to go nuts over it , dont get me wrong i completly agree with you for the most part,but like i say he loves turkey his main diet is fruit,mice ,and chicks ,and as a treat i give him turkey and i was curious of how to mix up the sdz diet ...thanks for the replys

JODY T

So then I should develop, scorpion scented monitor popable's, to give as a treat. They can be used to intice Tuby the sav, to situp and beg. Or your saying turkey diet is just included in the monitors diet. Are you including it because you feel the diet is lacking, either mentally or physically? Or simply because you want to?(that is a very good reason, no one can argue that one) Or are you adding it because, you have no idea what diet is sufficent and are hoping it will be of some good?

I have nothing against turkey, but surely I feel whole prey items are a thousand times better. I also have not seen turkey or the turkey diet, produce results that or better or even close to what a rodent or whole prey items, have produced. I have not seen it even show a benefit. With the possible exception of cost and convience.

Its really no big thing, but I get the feeling, it would be better to approach monitors for what they are, and not confuse yourself or others, that monitors are a domesticated pet. I would also think to use what is proven and reliable is better then to add things you(people) hope are helpful. Please remember, this is just conversation.

My last question and I know I should not go here, but I am curious, Why is it called SDZ turkey diet. As far as I know, SDZ has never claimed it, or published it. When Mr. Lemm first exposed it here, he claimed it was going to be published, that was many years ago. Also, Mr. Lemm is not with the SDZ, hes with CRESS. I would imagine a publication would include actual results and applications. But that has not appeared. So all these years we have been going on heresay. For instance why is it Turkey diet, and not Chicken or beefheart or pork, or any other meat? Is one really better then the other? Or even answer the basic question, why was it developed in the first place? What was the context and intent? Oh well, I guess I will keep waiting. Thanks FR

Wow, I'm impressed, I'm actually Mr. Lemm now - cool. I do work for the SDZ, the research and conservation branch known as CRES. The SDZ did come up with the diet (the nutrition division, with our input) and we have been working to publish it for years now. In fact, it was just accepted at Zoo Biology and has already been peer reviewed and received. I will be posting very soon on which issue it will appear in, I'm waiting myself. You see Frank, research takes many years even after the work is finished. As for your other questions (same ones as 6 or 7 years ago), you can read the paper and see from there. I think you'll be interested in seeing the biochemistry of the diet (hint: its basically a mouse and that is why it was developed). Thanks,
Jeff

Hi Jeff, I used, Mr. Lemm, because your so easily offended, see even old guys can learn. Should I have said, Sir, Mr. Lemm?? j/k

Yes I truly understand what time and testing means, thats why I often wonder how you can have animals for very short times and publish about them, but thats another subject all together and really its none of my business.

Yes, I have been waiting for years to see this publication, as you have also said it would be out soon many times before. But seriously, I really do have a question, If its like a mouse, then whats wrong with mice????????????? Does similiar mean, better then, almost as good as, equal too? Never mind, I will wait for the paper(horses mouth, you know) Are you an author on the paper?? co-author? mentioned?

Maybe i would feel better if you shaved mice and included the hair for roughage, I do feel thats one of the benefits of whole food items, hair, feathers, scales, etc. Clean out the gut, you know. Once I had published, what was important was not so much the protein, but all the other junk contained in whole prey items.

Hey, whats the differences between, prey and food items???

I guess if your family does not like rodents in the home freezer and you cannot get a small(less then $100) freezer from one of the many freezer sources, then turkey(almost mouselike) would have some benefit. Maybe you could tie a string on it(turkey) and move it around a cage so the monitors can chase it(enrichment) or bury it, so a monitor can dig it up(ewwwwwwwwww, nasty enrichment) oh well, I must be old, I surely don't get it, go figure. Thanks for responding. Cheers FR

I hate to be the one to say this, being new to monitors and all, but I see alot of replies to the original question but no answer. You could have saved alot of time and just printed out the turkey recipe. I myself am sticking to mice , crickets and roaches.

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

I was just playing with the Mr. Lemm thing - when did I get so easily offended? And when you're referring to having animals a short time and then publishing...I think you're talking about ackies? I had them four years and bred them a number of times before I wrote that article. And Reptiles isn't a major scientific poublication - I think some people (or so I was told) actually learned something there. You really have to see the publication (I am the senior author) to answer your questions. But to answer one - nothing is wrong with mice. Some places like to mix in alternatives - even if they cannot be hunted like prey. Some animals do very well on it and will take it before mice (finicky - and not just monitors which are rarely finicky, but things like Dracaena, Tegus, etc). Hope I answered some questions. And on the timeline thing - peer review seems like a never-ending process! Thanks,
Jeff

Are Dracaenas tough to switch? They're sort of my dream lizard, which sounds kind of pathetic in a forum filled with big lizard owners, but anyway they're currently beyond my means. But someday I will have the ultimate Dracaena setup so I'm trying to gather info. Then I will endeavor not to be bitten by them.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

I'am confused, what exactly is a number of times(one clutch, several, raise a couple generations, etc), and what year did you publish your articule? I getting old and forget, as somehow, those numbers(4yrs) do not make sense, it seems you bred red ackies before I did(it was red ackies wasn't it?) and I thought I was the first.

Also, again I forget, what was in your articule that was not in Pete Kuhns and my interviews, both came out before yours and contained the exact same information. Did you site any of these Sorry I am so confused. FR

You must be getting old. Your interview was a long time ago and did not cover that much. Pete's article came out the same month mine did. You should compare them before making statements about what they covered. His only covered reds, I covered both and some wild stuff. And I bred yellows before I bred reds. I believe it was around Nov 99 that I sold them, so I would have gotten them as babies around 95. It really does not matter - where are you going with this?

I'am sorry Jeff, I was just trying to remember how all that went. Besides you brought up the breeding thing, not me. I guess you must of thought a clutch or two was very meaningful, at the time.

Actually I am going nowhere with this, I merely figured I could be the one to ask questions, as its almost always me doing the answering. Sadly, I can't think of anything important to ask. Seeya FR

I believe you asked me the questions and it was roughly 7-10 clutches between the two subspecies (if I recall correctly and if thats what you're after. No big deal in my mind, sorry you can't come up with anything meaningful - oh well, nothing new, nothing gained. Regards,
Jeff

bing, bong, bing, bong, bing, bong, bing, bong. hahahahahahahaha. FR

Please Frank, stay out of the sun, I really have no idea what that means.

You just did it. No matter what I say, you add a (dumbarse) remark and bounce it back. You know like, stay out of the sun or to bad you cannot think of anything meaningful. or like this, "how childish"

The truth was, there was nothing I could think of, that you could share of value. Or that you would answer accurately and not defensively, so why ask. Is that clear?

So I will end this with, Thanks Jeff, FR

Okay, still not quite sure what you're talking about - I believe I answered all the questions accurately, so I will end too. I'm sorry I could not help you out with what you were looking for. Thanks,
Jeff

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It would sure make some people much easier to understand.

Now that your here, isn't it weird that an author of many articules and such only comes here to defend a turkey, and not actually help. I mean, it totally keeps up on whats being posted, and hes always popping up on our site, just to run and hide. hmmmmmmmm Wheres the toad? I need the toad, here toady toady. FR

I have helped many times and through my "many articles". See anyone hiding? Also, I post when someone asks me a question, thats about it - just so I don't have to listen to your nonsense. I like how its "your forum" - isn't that your other little place on the net? As long as its public, I'll be here. Hope thats easy enough for you to understand. Enjoy your toad.

My understanding of a treat is a food item that the animal particularly enjoys but which isn't especially good for it. For example my bearded dragon goes crazy for waxworms but they are very fatty so I hardly ever feed them to him.

Or a food item which it particularly enjoys but which is hard to come by for whatever reason.

Yes, thats what a treat is for people, but what about monitors. Monitors being reptiles, can and do change their food perferences with temperature and conditions(husbandry) Also by need, growth, egg development, post partum, etc.

So, whos to say what is need or requirement and what is a treat.

To add something to a diet to make the diet more complete, surely should not be considered a treat. It should be considered a part of a diet.

It also seems to me, most people who talk about giving treats to monitors, are beginers and really do not know what is really needed. As if any of us really do.

I guess in my opinion, a treat to a well adjusted monitor with good support(husbandry) is simply a full stomach and the ability to digest it. Cheers FR

Ah, I see your point now.
Maybe a monitor treat would be something that isn't required in its diet but is fun to watch it eat, but then the treat is for the owner not the monitor.
To what extent does the environmental conditions affect the eating habits of monitors? I was under the impression that they ate whatever and whenever food was available although most of my research has been into savs.
Thanks

First, enviornmental conditions play a huge part, at different temps their feeding responce is different. From not eating at all, to eating everything in sight. Inbetween they may only pick certain items.

Next, hydration, if a reptile is dehydrated, they indeed feed differently. They can become very picky.

Both of the above occur in both nature and captivity.

Next behaviorally, monitors often are prey source specific, that is, is something is abundant, they focus on that. An old used example is Nile monitors, seeking out and consuming Nile croc eggs. When they know of a large source of food, they attend that until its exhausted. This happens with all sorts of prey, such as Nestling birds or eggs. A friend of mine in Oz, knows of a place where swallows(martins) nest, and every year when the nests are ready, he finds V.tristis, eating the contents of the nests. This is very normal. The larger monitors, seem to know when and where this will happen and be there at the right time. You know, like Chimps on a figtree.

Reading literature can be confusing. If you read stomach contents, one study will see, a high percentage of one thing, less of others. Then another study, will say more of the other and none of what was common in the first one. Yet, its the same species of monitor. For instance, we have been told that Savs, were snail specialist, yet the most current studys do not show that. Is it a case of timing, do they specialize on snails during the wet season and other prey items at other times of the year. Do they specialize in one prey item as hatchlings, such as Daniel Bennett, sugguests on his site, Or do different populations specialize of different prey items that are particular to their area?

Also, no one has done any long term studies, so who knows what they eat, year in and year out. Heck, there is nothing on what the functioning lifespan of wild monitors. Much less what they eat, from season to season and year to year. FR

That makes sense. Thanks.