Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm from Ohio and I've only been in the Bay Area for a little over two years. In that time I've become familiar with a lot of places to find herps, and I'm having great success finding animals I'd only seen on this forum.

What I find distressing is that someone is destroying habitat, probably in search of zonata (which I surmise from exposure, elevation, terrain, etc., of the plundered areas.) This is happening even in the roadside spots I fleetingly mentioned in an earlier post, which makes me think that nobody should ever divulge even general locality info. IMHO, whoever's doing this is a real boink.

Sadly, there was a little crotalus I've been watching grow up under the same board for the last two seasons. Somebody else discovered him last week and beat him to death with a stick, which they left laying across his shattered, lifeless form. In that same area, years-old artificial cover has been dislodged and left awry. Luckily, they're in too big a hurry to wander far enough off the trail to find the really good spots. Probably drunken teenagers.

Granted, we're talking snakes here so who really cares in the great scheme of things, what with brave young men being blown out of their boots, but still...

That said:

2 Charina bottae. One in Santa Clara County, the other in Santa Cruz County. (Is that too specific, or not specific enough?)

2 Crotalus virdis. (Santa Clara Co.)

4 juvenile L. getulus, coastal phase. (San Mateo County)

1 juvenile P. catenifer. (Santa Clara Co.)

1 adult zonata, dor. (Belly up, squashed so flat he could have been airbrushed onto the road.) (Santa Cruz Co.)

2 Uta stansburiana.

1 Thamnophis atratus. Tiny, shorter than my pinkie and could fit easily down a Bic ink-tube thingy. I was going to feed him to my diadophis, but thought better after seeing the nerve he displayed in trying to bite me.

TMTC skinks, alligator, and fence lizards. One of the cool things about this area is that you can see a northern and a southern in a two hour stretch. The eumeces males are coming into breeding color, and there are some enormous Elgaria males wandering around.

I've noticed a real difference in coloration in the Diadophis. Those on Skyline ridge are jet black with a very coral underside--beautiful animals. On the other side of the valley they are dusty slate gray with bright orange underneath. Here's a question for the pros: are these separate ssp., or variant locality morphs?

Things are drying up so there are fewer Batrachoseps or Ensatinas in the oak woodlands, but MANY baby Aneides lugubris. Northern exposure Redwood groves in San Mateo County are still crawling with ensatina and taricha (and banana slugs.)

I had my digicam stolen, but I'm planning to get another by the time things really get rolling.

BAH:
Along highway 35 (Skyline Rd. or Dr. or Hwy.) you can find both species of alligator lizards within yards of one another. And the NALs get large in tht region. Here in NW Oregon, they are generally 1/2 to 2/3rds the size of the NALs in various regions of Calif. such as the Santa Cruz Mts.

And by the way, you have two species of Sharp-tailed Snakes also in that region and also to be found along Hwy. 35.

Sorry to hear about the unthinking clods but that is par for the course everywhere--there is just more of them in your neck of the woods.

Richard F. Hoyer

RE the alligator lizards: you can say that again. There are some HUGE males out cruising for ladies. Too bad they like to drowze in the middle of the road...on Highland Rd. I saw three DOR in just a few minutes of traveling and chased one absolute monster into the sage.

Your knowledge of the area is commendable! True to what you say, I have indeed found the two in very close proximity, seems to me especially true along 35 where it runs into Summit Rd. Found a C. bottae there as well, which I wasn't looking for.

And yes, I had heard that there are two ssp. of C. tenuis, but I've never taken the time to distinguish. If you would tell me the salient characteristics, I'd perhaps take the trouble.

Hey

Sorry to hear about your horrible experience. Mr. Hoyer is right. There's seems to be more knuckleheads here in the bay since me have a dense population of people here. Another example is Curt's post at the other forum with people taking BB guns and shooting animals. It was horrendous. Sadly, not everybody is an animal lover not to mention herp enthusiast. Even the herp enthusiast, like you mentioned, can prove deadly to the animals with people who destroy the habitat to find, for example, zonatas. I remember hiking with a friend in the Sta. Cruz Mts. and finding what would have been an excellent habitat for z's looking like a rock quarry because of collectors. It was a very sad sight. I don't blame you for deciding not to ever divulge even general locality info. A lot of people have decided to do so.

With that said. Could you guys need help with the ID on some of my finds? They are mainly the animals that Mr. Hoyer mentioned (AL’s and Sharp-tails). I just need confirmation of the proper common and scientific names. Since these animals have two species that can live very close to each other I’m somewhat iffy with my IDs. If it’s any help, I found the following at the "site" (wink, wink, Mr. Hoyer). I'll post the pics below. Thanks in advance.

Jonel

my site

is this the correct ID?

my site

is this the correct ID?

my site

I also did some hiking for about an hour this afternoon. I did not really find a lot of animals but did find a pair of Nothern Pacific Rattlesnakes mating in a tunnel under a rock I flipped. I was in awe and took some in-situ pics and gently placed back the rock to keep my disturbance to a minimal. Love is definitely in the air in the wild and this is also true in my personal snake collection. I love this time of year! This find rivaled the time that I saw 2 male Atrox having their breeding battles in the middle of the road while we were night driving in AZ.

I also got a nice work-out getting chased by a band of bulls grazing nearby. LOL. It’s just one of those things that everytime you think about it, you just can’t stop to laugh at yourself.

Take care guys!

Jonel

my site.

Lonel:
I am not an authority on alligator lizards. I first scanned the photos on your web site and all of the adult photos appear to be the Calif. All. Lizard. Note the yellow or gold eyes of all specimens. The juvenile is iffy though I believe it is also the same species. And by the way, the genus name has been changed to Elgaria.

Each species tends to have different habitat preferences with the NALs mainly being found in more shaded and damper habitats at the edge of forested areas with the SALs being found in more open and dryer habitats. There is a lot of overlap however as to where one finds the two species in the Santa Cruz Mt. area I believe.

Not enough of the Sharp-tailed Snake's tail is exposed to indicate for certain which species it is. If it was an adult, with the basic overall red dorsal coloration and what little I can see of the tail, it appears to be the new species which I call the Forest Sharp-tailed Snake. I recently sent a draft of a manuscript that formally describes this species, to the individual with whom I am cooperating on this discovery.

Your photo shows the specimen on leaf litter (bay and/or oak leaves) suggesting the specimen was found in or near wooded habitat which if true, would reinforce the notion that is was the Forest Sharptail. The Common Sharp-tailed Snake (Contia tenuis) is found more often in open type grassland habitats. As adults, some individuals do retain the reddish overall dorsal coloration but more frequently, the juvenile reddish color is replaced by a basic grayish pink or browning pink that makes the pink dorso-lateral stripes more prominant rather than blending in to the dorsal red as is the case with the specimen in your photo.

Next time you find a sharptail, all you need to do is count the caudals on one side of the tail (caudals split in these species). If your count is 42 or less, the specimen is Contia tenuis. If the count is 44 or more, the specimen is the Forest Sharp-tailed Snake.

Richard F. Hoyer

First, thanks to Dr, Hoyer for answering my question without even knowing I'd asked. I guess I should take the time to read all the posts first.

Second, Jonel, I got your e-mail but I'm slow to respond. I notice you don't have any red-sided garter pics, which you'll trip over if you visit Grant Lake area on Mt. Hamilton. I hope to find a T. tetraenia this year.

Interesting story: I was at a herp show last Sept and met a lady who said she had a lot of snakes crawling around her neighborhood after some nearby lots were graded. I went up to take a look and sure enough, her sons had 2 boas and 3 zonatas in a ten gallon aquarium. The boys said they found the snakes "crawling out of a hole in the ground" where hours before had been coastal scrub. I gave them the standard line about needing to get fishing licenses and all that, and gave her advice about tank setup and brumation issues, but my point is that her neighbors all had the same problem and most of them had no idea what to do. I didn't either. She asked if I could relocate them to other habitat, but this would only have caused trouble elsewhere--a reptilian voyage of the dammned.

This whole episode brings up a couple of points. First, I don't believe that zonata populations are as low as some would have you think. They just don't happen to hang out where they're easy to find, (which explains the "popularity" of known, and easily accessible, habitat.) Dozens of homeless snakes roaming the streets--at least to hear her tell it--suggests a booming population. This is unfortunate for the animals thus affected, but the graded area was merely a tiny part of the whole. And by that I don't mean to condone developers' plowing wholesale into delicate habitat, but rather that the overall vastness of identical, and even rougher, georgaphy means that there are many thousands remaining where nobody will EVER bother them.

You lose some, and you win some.

Hello

Thanks for the input and you're right haven't gotten any red-sided pics yet. I have found them a couple of times but unfortunately without a camera. A friend of mine just emailed me to call him to go herping sometime soon so I'll defintely try to check out Mt. Hamilton. There's a lot more places I wanted to check out herping since my list of photographed animals is still very short. I would atleast like to get pics of the local herps here in our area. Just finding time from a busy schedule is somewhat hard. Anyway, just watch out for my post in the future. Hope to hear from you. Take care.

Jonel
my site.

Just Mr. and not Dr.

Richard F. Hoyer

Hi Richard

Thank you very much for the clarification of the species mention. Since most of my IDs are from the Stebbin's Field guide, the animal could look like or described as the other sub-species so it really helps to ask and reconfirm with other herpers. It's a very useful book but since there have been recent changes and my own interpretations of the descriptions. I could easily make some minor mistakes.

Re: the adult alligator lizard. They were found in a shaded/wooded area so they are more likely to be northerns. I'm not sure about the hatchling myself sinceit was honestly found inside a friends kitchen here in the san jose/milpitas area. He called me and offered to give him to be released. I released it in a nearby state/county park where we hike and jog.

Re: the contia. The animal pictured was found in the same habitat as the adult alligator lizard. So I would presume that it's the forest type. I would defintely count the caudals when I find one again. Btw, is there a proper scientific name for the forest type yet? Btw, is there anyway I could get a copy of your Contia study? Thanks again and send my regards to Ryan.

Jonel
my site

Jonel:

My email address is charinabottae@earthlink.net
If you send me your mailing address I will send you a reprint of the paper in which I discribe the discovery of the overlooked species of Sharptail. I gave the species a common name (Forest Sharp-tailed Snake) pending the publication of the formal description in which a scientific name is proposed. Until our paper is accepted, the new species is simply referred to as
'Contia sp.'

Re the alligator lizards, NALs invariably have dark eyes whereas the SAL group have yellow /gold color eyes as your photo shows. As mentioned, there is overlap in the types of habitat where both species occur. I found a NAL along the west side of highway 35 in open grassland habitat so habitat association is not alway the best indicator.

Richard F. Hoyer

Between this guy killing a rattler and you feeding that garter to your animal? Glad you did'nt.You would have been no better than the people who kill them for fun.
Tom

As I'm fond of saying, "baby snake" is euphemistic for "bird food." (In place of the word 'bird,' you could insert a great many other species of snake, lizard, frog, insect, etc.) The fact is that mortality rates among neonate snakes is staggeringly high, due in large part to the cruel truth of sentence #1.

Here's en ecology lesson:

Years ago, birdwatchers began to complain that there were ever fewer birds visiting the flyway wetlands in the environs south of Mt. San Bruno. Turns out that the "birdfood" was gone, that food item being the S.F. Gartersnake. SF gartersnakes are very fecund, the females clutching numerous times in a single season, and they relied on the equally numerous red-legged frogs/tadpoles to support their numbers. In the process they were (as were the froglets) a valuable attraction for birds.

So, when the frogs went away so went the snakes--and then the birds.

(Interestingly, our little forbidden gartersnake is a candidate for the most widely captive-bred snake around, but you'd never know it because the breeders are foreign repatariums who house and breed other snake-eating species, such as cobras. This was discovered quite by accident. A European zoo that wanted to expand its threatened species inventory requested live specimens of tetraenia after it went on the US endangered species list. Much to their dismay, after a short time they had more gartersnakes than they knew what to do with, while on the other hand they had hungry cobras. Naturally, one thing led to another.

So,one could make the argument that baby gartersnakes have at least helped to facilitate captive breeding programs for other, and more direly threatened, species.)

Anyway, I get what you're saying, but you're wrong. I dont ENJOY killing snakes--and that's what separates me, and you, from trolls who do. Assuming that you keep reptiles, what do YOU feed yours?

You know, this may seem like a non-sequitur, but it's something that has amazed me ever since I had kids: my daughter can fall in love with one mouse, and yet she can watch its sibling go down the gullet of a pet colubrid, in NO way glad to see it suffer but instead recognizing its part in the 'circle of life' (thanks, Disney). Go figure.

Regards.