Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've had my female hog for about a month now, and really enjoy her. I got her from a online dealer in Saint Louis, and she is captive bred and about 8 months old. The breeder said she was on F/T pinks, but I had not been able to get her to eat...... however.... My wife is a fish keeper and has feeder fish. I took one out for the heck of it and dropped it in front of the hog. A few flicks of the tongue and she attacked it with gusto. She has just ate five of them and is looking for more.

My question is, is there anything wrong with not feeding them mice? I have mice for my Peublan Milk Snake so I have no problem with mice, but if the animal likes fish then why not make fish and frogs her diet? We always have tons of feeder fish. I know in the wild they do not eat mice so it can't be a nutrition issue. Thanks for any advice!

What sorts of feeders? Some feeders make very poor choices for a regular diet due to thiaminase which basically causes Vit. B deficiency. I would feed mostly mice and alternate with fish every once in a while.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

does the 'polo' in Poloboy refer to the store or the sport?
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Sue Barnett
1.0 Florida King (Vega)
0.1 Western hognose (Sola)
0.1 Egyptian spiny mouse (Mia)
4.2 mini rex rabbits (Basil, Pippin, Reggie, Hayden, Jackie and Peek-a-boo)
0.1 Plott hound (Molly)
1.0 half Arab (Zarr)
1.0 Betta (Flash)

I guess the clothing. This girl a while back just started calling me poloboy, and I took it on for the email address. I don't wear polo or play polo though. More of a surfer/hippie kind of guy
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

As far as I know, thiaminase is only a problem if frozen fish are used and can easily be counter acted with vitamin supplements.
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Wildlife dies without a sound, the only voice it has... is yours.

...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

As far as I know, it is in high quantities in the fish in the Carp family (I believe Cyprinidae or something of the sort) which includes certain minnows, tuffies (rosy reds), comets, goldfish, carp, etc. Freezing just makes it worse.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

My understanding was that an animal fed exclusively goldfish, frozen or not, will evenutally get B1 deficiency. But freezing does intensify the effects.
I thought tuffies were ok for thiminase, so now I'm sad. It's hard to get any other sorts of fish for cheap in the winter around here.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

Feeder guppies? I know, those are hard to find these days, too. And I wouldn't trust minnows from a bait store due to parasite risk.

Katrina

The ones she ate today are "Ruby Reds". But I can get several different kinds, and have access to frogs (I live on a lake). I do not understand how an animal that does not eat rodents in the wild would require them in captivity......

It is not a requirement. But why take wild amphibians when the snake does not require them? Amphibians are, on a world-wide scale, on the decline. Mice are specifically bred to be feeders, and hognose can be quite opportunistic and have been found to take mice before in the wild. Amphibians and fish can also have quite significant parasite loads. And despite popular belied, hognose do not require amphibians to stay healthy.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I would be very cautious about an all fish diet. Contrary to what you have heard, 20 percent of the Eastern hognoses can consist of rodents. To make the claim that they do not eat mice in the wild is incorrect. What they do in the wild is completely different than what they do in captivity, otherwise I could easily argue that keeping them in four glass walls is not natural! In fact, hognoses eat far less fish than they do mice (fish were not even listed in the food items found in the stomachs of hognoses in the paper that I have), so the logic about using fish instead of mice is simply not valid.

The benefits to using mice is that they are a nutritionally complete food item that usually do not have any issues with too little or too much vitamins. That is why they make an ideal captive diet and it suits Eastern hognoses just fine.

Please read the long thread below for information on amphibian feeders and how to use them. Please only use them as a scenting source.
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Wildlife dies without a sound, the only voice it has... is yours.

...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

They DON'T require mice in captivity. If you want to feed your hog its natural diet, which consists almost EXCLUSIVELY OF TOADS, go right ahead.

Hognosed snakes are superbly adapted to toad-eating. They're immune to toad toxins, and they have two specially adapted long teeth that are NOT grooved to deliver venom--they're there for the sole purpose of letting the air out of toads, which puff themselves up to try to avoid being swallowed.

You'll have to deparasitize it often, though, if you do. Wild animals all have a load of internal parasites, which they are able to handle due to a low re-infection rate. Those build to lethal levels in captivity (reinfection rate is massive), so parasites must be treated promptly.

The common feeder fish we use are bad for herps...there's no getting around that, sorry. Even if the thiaminase didn't kill the snake, the horrible lungworms would--those fish transmit parasites! Mice are the safest thing to feed a captive snake--they provide complete nutrition, and f/t mice do not transmit parasites.

if you have a picky feeder, just dip the head of a rodent in an egg white or yolk out of your fridg.

A friend of mine had a breeding pr. of W. Hogs together, and never separated them, when the female started laying, dad was there to clean up. He managed to save a couple of the eggs, but who knows how many were lost, as dad was so full it looked like he just ate mom.

Just an idea for scenting,
Chad

Thanks, good advice by all. I have decided to feed fish and rodents. I can use the fish to scent the rodents if need be. I just have never seen a snake eat with such gusto as that little hog on the feeder fish. (I have kept snakes??reptiles for 10 years) The fish would flop around and Mahogany would chase it down and quickly eat it. I also like the egg idea, will try that as well. Where I live I often find bird eggs on the ground. I will avoid "wild" frogs for feeding but may use a tadpole from time to time..... Thanks again....

maybe your hog was excited by the fish's movements? if you have tweezers/tongs maybe wiggling a pinkie would cause your hog to chase it? Mine will only eat if I leave them sitting for her but my king likes nothing better than to pretend he just chased down his F/T mouse and is holding on for dear life! (or rather, dear dinner)
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Sue Barnett
1.0 Florida King (Vega)
0.1 Western hognose (Sola)
0.1 Egyptian spiny mouse (Mia)
4.2 mini rex rabbits (Basil, Pippin, Reggie, Hayden, Jackie and Peek-a-boo)
0.1 Plott hound (Molly)
1.0 half Arab (Zarr)
1.0 Betta (Flash)

I woul just use a chicken egg out of your frig, it would be much safer for the snake.

Good luck,
Chad

I have a female 100% het/Albino western that will only eat the pinks if I scent it with trout skin. I keep a bag of skin in the freezer and rub the pink on it to get her to eat. As soon as I get her to eat unscented that will be it for scenting. A mouse diet is very complete and healthy.

I still encourage you NOT to feed fish. If you insist on doing so, you MUST take your snake to a vet at least twice a year for a parasite check. Lungworms can be deadly.

Good idea, hognoses have been observed eating painted turtle eggs.
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Wildlife dies without a sound, the only voice it has is yours.

...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

FYI, I just took a fish, rubbed it all over a pinky and threw both in with the hog. Walked by five minutes later and both the pink and the fish were gone

Thanks again for all your help.....

Many good points have been brought up here. It is always a good idea to feed a variety of prey items. Being a very balanced diet, mice are great however and variety can be replaced with consistency.
As far as feeding fish, it is not much more of a leap than feeding your hognose mice, however the thiaminase is a problem if you don't research specifically the fish used (go beyond the rambling of a forum) and/or use a good variety of fish.
Food from the wild is definetly a backstep due to parasites. It sounds like you've taken a lot of care to ensure you've bought a high quality captive-bred snake. Introducing parasite bound food would negate much of your efforts.
Simulating a natural diet would be awesome although a lot of work and a little bit of risk. A diet of captive bred frogs (hard to get started but worth it in the long run)would do a great benefit, but it is important to keep in mind that hognose do eat more than just frogs in the wild. Research studies done on the subject of hognose diets in the wild and make sure you include slugs, worms ect if that is the path you'd like to follow.
Good luck and enjoy your snake!

I don't have too much experience with snakes, but years ago I used to keep a few snakes, including a western and southern hog for a museum in college - both were wild-caught. Herp knowledge was little and far between, especially out in BFE New Mexico on the plains 12 years ago. So, you can understand that I ended up experimenting quite a bit. I tried mice (pink and up to small adults as the snakes aged), frogs, toads, tadpoles, goldfish, and baby quail. The hogs went ape for everything but the birds - wouldn't go near them. I wouldn't recommend anything wild-caught to feed to the snakes, due to parasites, but back then, I figured wild-caught snakes, so wild-caught food wouldn't hurt. I've learned since then and wouldn't do the same today.

If your snake is not eating, try placing the pinkies in the water, maybe even having a live fish or two in the water with a pinkie. In the frenzy trying to capture the fish, the hognose will likely encounter the pinkie and not even notice the difference. I've gotten garter snakes started on pinkies this way.

As for mice in the wild, the old farmers swore to me that hognosed ate mice, and one farmer had a mouse colony living in a dirt pile on his property. He said one day he found a hognosed stuffed in one of the mouse holes, apparently just sucking them down as he found them. Again, this was in NM, with western hognosed.

Katrina

In my experience western hogs will eat almost anything. My adults will eat frozen thawed adult mice sometimes as many as 3 at a time. They will also eat nestling birds, small snakes like baby garters, rat pups, fence lizards and even balls of dog food. I had one try to eat a leather glove once when I set him down. The glove shouldn't have had any scent since it was a work glove not usually near any food items.