Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I come onto the board today and see a long string of crackbacks on the subject. I dont want to cause any arguments but everyone is entitled to their opinion and just because someones opinion is not that of your own does not make it wrong. What is wrong with SUPPLEMENTING a diet with mice? Do you eat eggs??? Do you eat bacon??? Could they not cause health problems if that was all you ever ate??? If I was to eat too much bacon or too many eggs and that was all I ever ate, I would be lookin like fast bastard right now. Does that mean that you dont eat them??? No, you just eat them in moderation. It has been proven that eggs in moderation are actually healthy for you. Also, it has been stated many many times that fish are fatty and should not be fed. Does that mean that we should stop eating fish and ignore all the studies that say having fish as a part of your diet is good for you??? I have posted this point before and it has met with criticism. Genivive, I'm not arguing against your point, Im sure that a diet of just mice led to your frogs death because of all the fat. But I just dont see anything wrong with supplementing your frogs diet with and occasional mouse for variety and nutrients that you just cant get from inverts alone. The key part in every healthy diet is variety. I am sure I am going to get grilled for this from some but I am sure that there are also others who agree with me. Sorry for the long post and again, I am not trying to start any argument or hold any ill will toward anyone here. We are all here because we share a love for herps. CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG???? =)

That is a bad example. You can not compare humans to frogs in most cases. I don't eat eggs. Nor bacon. Never been a big breakfast fan. Now on to some other points. Fish can not be metabolized by frogs (as has been stated on the boards before). For people, if prepared right, fish is a very skim meat. We also do not eat goldfish as a major part of our diet, which is quite likely all the frogs are getting. Frogs can not metabolize mice either. The fats are not the same kind as are found in their natural prey. Another concern...fish contain too much calcium. They are already loaded with the stuff...bones, scales, etc. Then you toss in the fish food which just increases the amount of calcium, and frogs can actually OD from eating fish. And what can a frog get from mice that it can not get elsewhere? I would love to hear, especially considering that most frogs only eat other frogs and may never encounter mice in the wild.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Do you not dust your inverts occasionally when you feed your pacman? If yes, why is that??? Because they need some calcium. Do you dust them every feeding??? No, you MODERATE it just as you would moderate feeding them fish. Sure, if you fed them fish all the time then they would OD on calcium but they would do the same thing if you dusted every time. No where in my post did I say feed just fish or even just mice for that matter. I said supplement just as you would supplement your normal diet of inverts with an occasional dusting.

Also, Name one habitual place on this earth other than maybe under water where you will not find mice? That place I would love to hear, especially considering that other than maybe roaches or ants, mice are at the top of the list for being widespread and adaptable. They can and do thrive in almost every habitat. And pacmans, being as oppurtunistic as they are, will eat anything that moves in front of them, including the mice that wander that same habitat.

Frogs cannot metabolize mice??? What kind of BS is that??? I know I'm not as scientifically gifted as you seem to be so the following is a little technical for me but I get the gist of what this report is saying.

HORNED FROG METABOLISM
M. K. Powell et al. [1999, Copeia (3):710-717] note that animals exhibit an increase in resting metabolic rate after feeding while they process the ingested food, a response that has been termed the specific dynamic effect. This postprandial rise in metabolism is due in part to the cost of processing absorbed nutrients, especially amino acids, and is particularly pronounced in animals such as large snakes that consume large prey on an infrequent basis. To increase their understanding of the specific dynamic effect in amphibians, the authors measured the metabolic rates of horned frogs, Ceratophrys cranwelli, before and after they consumed mice or an amino acid solution. After the frogs consumed mice at 20, 25, and 30_C, their oxygen consumption increased within 48 h to a peak that was two- to fivefold greater than the fasting level. The total energy expended depended on the mass of the mice consumed and was not significantly related to variation in frog mass or temperature. Of the energy ingested, 9-15% was expended during the processing of the food. These frogs were as efficient in processing a meal as other vertebrates. After the frogs consumed an amino acid solution, their excess postprandial energy expenditure was less than 25% of the value when they consumed mice of the equivalent amino acid composition. The cost of processing absorbed amino acids cannot be responsible for the majority of the specific dynamic effect in these frogs.

Again, "These frogs were as efficient in processing a meal as other vertebrates" (see above)

Again,as previously stated, I do not wish to argue with you being a fellow herp lover and Texan myself, I think you are a great asset to this board, but I do not wish to be attacked for my opinions because they are not that of your own.

I will have to find my sources. I mean, of course they can digest the mice perfectly well, but I seem to remember that there is something in mice that makes the lipids harder to metabolize by the frogs. Therefore, the lipids stockpile much quicker than when the frog eats invertebrates.

As for frogs not eating mice...these frogs are probably above ground a month or two out of the year, depending on the rains. During that time, they are pretty much breeding and congregating around vernal pools. Their main, and pretty much only, food source is other frogs. Invertebrates are probably taken as well. I am sure some frogs come across mice, but chances are that most don't, considering their diet consists almost exclusively of other frogs.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I honestly do not have a problem with using mice as a supplement. Okay there you have it! BUT, I know how people work. If we were to advertise that mice would be okay as a supplement, I can definitely imagine people thinking that if mice can be used as a supplement, then won't be bad to feed mice to my frogs twice a month. I DO think that is too much. Even with supplements, which are not perfect, captive amphibians can still develop nutritional deficiencies if fed the incorrect foods in the first place.. It is not a cure-all. I have no problems making statements about how mice should not be fed to amphibians because as I have said many times before, as long as there are so many other alternative sources of invertebrate prey that are cheap and easy to raise, I don't see why a mouse ever needs to cross the lips of a frog.

Keep in mind that this anti-mouse claim is supported by scientific literature as summarized in the "Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry " book.

PS- the analogy of amphibian and human diets has no validity.
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Wildlife dies without a sound, the only voice it has... is yours.

...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

I was simply using the analogy to express the fact and it is valid in this case. "Too much is definitely bad." I am not as scientifically gifted as you and I never will claim to be. I was simply trying to state that supplementing in moderation was not a bad thing as you have just agreed. Also, I am not trying to be smart or anything as I have never read this literature but I would like to know for personal knowledge. What were the parameters of its studies? Were the negative findings based on an all mouse diet or did it also pertain to occasional supplementation with various foods such as mice and fish.

I do not even feed my bullfrog mice--and we are talking about a bullfrog. I give him nothing but crickets, and, for a treat, an occasional superworm. He's doing fine. But even without ever having had a mouse/pinkie, he's too fat. So imagine how big he would be if I did give him an occasional pinkie!

I think bullfrog and the lives of human beings are identical in that they like to eat too much. Please look around at the people in the stores and malls and see all of the big fat people out there, and chances are they are stuffing their faces with food. Is obesity healthy in people? No. It kills people. Gives them heart disease, diabetes, etc. Is obesity healthy in bullfrogs or any other frogs? No. It kills frogs.

So a frog can do quite nicely without a single pinkie.

JadeFox

That is not a valid analogy at all. Frogs are not at all conditioned to eat on a social basis, like humans are. Many humans have been conditioned so they will eat even when not hungry. For a frog, it is eat or be eaten. A frog's instincts say to eat as much as they can as quick as they can so they can grow their potential size in the smallest amount of time. It has nothing to do with wanting or liking to eat. But I do agree that a frog can live a perfectly healthy life without mice, just like people can live without fast food. It is an unhealthy choice to eat fast food, as there is nothing in fast food you can not receive from other foods. This does hold somewhat with the issue of mice. If you feed a frog all mice, it will die prematurely. If you feed your frog all insects, it can live an extremely healthy life. And if you choose to feed mice, there is not point to it other than your choice to do it as you can give the frog the same nutrients from other healthier sources.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I just can't see any good reason why you should give a mouse to a horned frog. I have a huge male Cranwelli who is the picture of health, and he eats strictly nightcrawlers and large crickets (dusted occasionally.)
Frogs are not like humans, who usually get overweight due to psychological addictions to fatty foods (using "comfort food" as a means to relieve stress, etc.)
Fish is a very good food for humans, but I doubt that HFs eat many fish in the wild. And even if they do, in captivity, they need not eat such things; we as humans should be intelligent enough to feed only the healthiest things to our captives!
I am sure that horned frogs cannot digest mice efficiently. Whenever I fed mice, the frog's wastes had a very distinct mouse-shape to them. I am sure that most of the mouse was expelled as wastes, and any energy gleaned from eating the mouse was probably expended as the frog was defecating the huge thing out!
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And humans are supposed to be the world's most intelligent, civilized, and refined species, eh? Have you ever been in a crowded discount store?

I usually don't get involved in these disputes but I feel strongly about people who put their own personal ethics over the needs of the animals under their care (PETA suggests a vegan diet for dogs and cats--WACKOS!)

I not only suggest feeding pinkies, mice and day old chicks to amphibians but would recomend it. Large frogs and toads both in the wild and in captivity have demonstrated the benifits of a varied diet that includes mammals. Sorry if this offends some people but its time to put your animals needs over your personal objections...

This does not necessarily have anything to do with a personal value system, other than providing the best possible captive care for your pets. I don't even see where this came from. Apparently you completely missed my post and others discussing the nutritional problems associated with using mice for food in amphibians. I have scientific evidence supporting my claim, do you know of any studies that showed that a long-term rodent diet is not detrimental to amphibians???? Please provide citations for literature that shows that wild amphibian's diets include a significant portion of mammals. In other words, what is your recommendation based upon?
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Wildlife dies without a sound, the only voice it has... is yours.

...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

Being in captivity the pet generally exercises a lot less than in the wild. Too high fat diet, just like with people, is bad.

like I said my bullfrog does perfectly well with bugs alone, and we all know how big and huge bullfrogs get.

And I sincerely believe eating gives my bullfrog a lot of pleasure because he begs for food everytime I see him. He croaks more after feeding him. I find his beg stares quite irresistable so I tend to overfeed him bugs and he has become very fat. He's really quite a doll

He only has a 100 gallon container though questionably "enough" space for a single frog, it's not the same as outdoors. so less exercise, and everything is given to him without having to hunt.

JadeFox

Sure, I'd like to see your citations stating that a high fat diet in frogs, _from feeding mice_, leads to premature death or decrease in body condition. I have never heard of or read of that suggestion in any Journal so if its true it should be of concern to anyone keeping large frogs. I did notice you didn't mention the study that links vision and eye degredation with feeding a restrictive diet. My diet plan used for African bullfrogs, Cane toads, and Conrauas come from the Metro Toronto Zoo, ON and the San Diego Zoo, CA, both zoos vet staff feed and suggest feeding large frogs and toads a mix of insect and non-insect prey, as they do in the wild.

You wanted a citation supporting a mamalian diet:

Sabater-Pi, Jordi (1985). "Contribution to the biology of the Giant Frog (Conraua goliath, Boulenger)." Amphibia-Reptilia, 6(2), 143-153.

And a citation stating they eat mice in the wild:

Zahl, Paul A. "In Quest of the World's Largest Frog," National Geographic (July 1967), 146-52.

1967...and 1985...Really recent! Check any of Bartlett's literature. Bartlett is well-known herp expert. Check most modern recources. Most will tell you (if the people know what they are talking about) that vertebrates are not an acceptable food source.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I have books at home as recent as 98 that still recomend mice

I doubt Conrauas have changed their diet in the wild since 1967.

It is nice to be able to converse with someone on these forms who can cite scientific literature too! I made no claims about mice being too fatty for amphibians. I have only stated that domestic mice are too high and vitamin A. which will lead to metabolic bone disease. I get all of this information from the Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry book, by Kevin Wright and Brent Whitaker. On page 74 the authors discuss hypervitamintosis and cites the article by Douglas et al, 1994, vitamins E & A, and proximate composition of whole mice and rats used as feed. Comp Biochem Physiol. 107A(2): 419 -- 424. Since this seems to be a pretty influential article, I will put in for an interlibrary loan for this article as soon as I can. I will report back on this forum a review of the article.

In the book, the authors even mentioned that hypervitamintosis A has been suspected as the underlying etiology of metabolic bone disease in HORNED FROGS. Yep, you read that right! They specifically mention horned frogs maintained on a rodent based diet at the Philadelphia Zoo. I want to stress that the authors suggest that feeding rodents to amphibians should only be done with proper supplementation of vitamin D 3 to offset the high levels of vitamin A, but admits that the supplementation has yet to be tested for long-term safety and efficacy in amphibians and mentions that it may even result in toxicities from the fat-soluble vitamins. For these reasons, "Feeding of Rodents to Amphibians Should Be Minimized".

Since this book is a relatively recent release, hopefully most of the zoos and aquariums around the world are coming up to some level of standards for amphibians husbandry. I would like to emphasize that since the Toronto Zoo and the San Diego Zoo are accredited by the American Zoological Association, they should avail themselves to the highest standards of animal keeping and would heed the concerns of this author and seriously limit feeding rodents to amphibians.

In general, I do not use what an animal does in the wild as a guideline for what to do in captivity. I have seen this line of reasoning to be consistently incorrect for captive animals. It seems when you throw an animal in four glass walls, all bets are off.
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Wildlife dies without a sound, the only voice it has is yours.

...the oldest task in human history: to live on a piece of land without spoiling it."
Aldo Leopold (1938)

"Sometimes I think the surest sign that intelligent life exists elsewhere in the universe is that none of it has tried to contact us."
Calvin and Hobbes (Scientific Progress Goes 'Boink', 1991)

My first horned-frog's situation is living proof that a diet high in mice equals lipid-buildup, blindness and death. I have posted about it a million times thus far. And I am not lying.
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And humans are supposed to be the world's most intelligent, civilized, and refined species, eh? Have you ever been in a crowded discount store?

double sigh....
A case study of one, leads to conclusive proof that all rodent diets are bad........

Commercially reared insects (crickets and mealworms) also have excessive levels of cholesterol and there are multiple cases of corneal lipidosis occuring in anurans fed an all insect diet. I have seen this occcur in multiple genera. (I believe the reference for this is by Susan Donoghue (but I have the actual reference at work).
Overfeeding regardless of the food item is probably the most common cause of obesity in amphibians.
See my post above under a different thread discussing vitamin A and SECONDARY HYPERPARATHYROIDISM which is often confused with "MBD".

Ed

feeding mice or killing animals. I hunt, fish, work at an animal clinic where we use euthanasia, hit mice against the wall for snakes, and what not. And please, show me where it says that a frog can not be healthy without mice or chicks. The point is that there is NO NEED for mice or chicks. There are tons of invertebrates that are just as healthy or healthier then mammals/birds/other vertebrates. I am sure there are tons of chickens running out on llanos for the horned frogs to eat. That was the most retarded post I have ever seen. PETA? Hardly...I kill most of what I eat on the weekends. Put my animal's care over my ethics...dumbest thing I have ever heard. All mice, chicks, and fish have shown is that long term use can cause obesity, organ failure, blindness due to lipid build up, and premature death. I think you should wake up, as you are obviously totally out of it...I still can't get over it...PETA?
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

I have no ethical objection to feeding mice. it is not an ethical thing; I feed rats to my snakes every week. The issue here, is proper diet.
When people start posting about how their frogs are getting lipid-buildup in the eyes, and going blind, and getting MBD in a few months, I will ask them if they're feeding mice. if they are, I am leaving.
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And humans are supposed to be the world's most intelligent, civilized, and refined species, eh? Have you ever been in a crowded discount store?