Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know that I am beating a dead horse to death, and that this topic has been convered repeatedly below, but decided to put this up here anyway. I have listened to the pros and cons of selling individual captive bred Eastern Indigos, and TexasIndigos to people that are going to keep them only as "pets", heard the persuasive arguemnt that these people, if they own them and maintain them in a responsible manner can EDUCATE the public.

Frankly I was most moved by Jeffs post and the comparision to the Cayman Iguanas and the purity of said captive iguana populations.

Since Eastern Indigos are so rare, it behooves the breeders of these snakes, the ones that produce them on a consistant or semi consistant basis, to sell seemingly unrelated offspring to potential would be future breeders. cetainly, selling them to people that always wanted one, since they were young, as a "pet" is not a crime, but I seriously doubt if these individuals will impact the public in a P.R. and awareness manner UNLESS they opt to do classroom and university presentations, as I have, throughout the year. I don't think that people should be denied that which they so much dessire, but my opinion is that selling one to someone who doesnt demonstrate an advanceced ability at keeping other snakes or that isnt going to breed it, potentially takes that snake outof the spectrum of ever becoming a)A future breeder or b)A tool for increased awareness to save the habitat of these beautifull creatures. Its nice to have a pet, but there arent alot of these left, not at all. Think about it.

Sincerely,

Fred Albury

(I don't think that people should be denied that which they so much dessire, but my opinion is that selling one to someone who doesnt demonstrate an advanceced ability at keeping other snakes or that isnt going to breed it, potentially takes that snake outof the spectrum of ever becoming a)A future breeder or b)A tool for increased awareness to save the habitat of these beautifull creatures. Its nice to have a pet, but there arent alot of these left, not at all. Think about it.)

Fred, I am curious to know what constitutes an "advanced ability" at keeping any snakes. I think that with all the information and availability of such on this forum and elsewhere, compounded by the willingness of concerned Indigo keepers to help in general, that someone with little knowledge could care for an Indigo with just a conscientious effort and a little study. It's not rocket science we're talking about here. Any information a "newbie" might need is here for the taking. How much did you or others here know before owning their first Indigo(poll?)? Did you study for years before acquiring your first? Please don't take this the wrong way Fred, but your statements here seem a bit pretentious. I certainly wouldn't put your Indigo knowledge to the test, but I wouldn't put down anyone's ability to learn what others here know or to successfully raise an Indigo without the experience that you or others have. We all have to start somewhere.

I think the "spectrum" has plenty of Indigos to breed and keep the fire burning. To give the impression that a person should stay away from owning one unless they are in it for the sole purpose of breeding or education is wrong. Just my opinion.

Hi Fred,
I know where you're coming from with this...my rubidus are such rare critters that it would bother me to no end to know that I released one to someone that was not going to breed it. That's a dead-end snake that is not going to benefit the captive populations in the US in any way. I have a waiting list for them that I can't possibly fill for the next 3 or 4 years. The only people I'm releasing them to are people that will breed them, and I'm only releasing them in pairs as much as possible.

I've said many times (and stand by it) that Drymarchon keepers have several responsibilities. They are (in order of importance):

1. Provide the absolute best care you can for the animals in your care. If you can't afford that, let someone who can have the animals.
2. Use them to benefit the species. Breed them and ensure that the bloodlines will be carried forth in their pure state.
3. If possible, use them to educate the public.
4. Never, ever sell to anyone a sub-standard or sick animal. Always provide the absolute best quality stock possible.
5. Never do anything to harm wild populations, and don't tolerate anyone else doing that. Contribute something to the conservation efforts, be it money, time and work, or both.

I don't think that it's necessarily wrong to keep an Indigo for a pet, and in some small ways that may even be beneficial to the species. People can be educated without realizing it. If someone who doesn't know anything at all about snakes meets an Indigo that is someone's pet, they are likely to be favorably impressed. Now, at least they know that not all snakes are dangerous, and they will likely recognize an Indigo if they happen to see one in the wild and will leave it alone and maybe even keep someone else from harassing or killing it. I don't necessarily think that keeping a Threatened or Endangered animal for a pet is a completely valid reason for having it, but I don't think it is something that should be prevented at all costs...we do lots of things without valid reasons and, as I said, some good can come of it. Who knows? Maybe one day I can produce enough rubidus to let a few go to good homes as pets...they certainly would make a good pet.

I agree with the idea that high-end specimens are more desirable for breeding purposes, and I agree that with this snake there is more of a desire to see your charges propagate the species. But don't let your desire to 'help God out' with this species overshadow the real beauty of the indigo, and by blocking out pet owners you would be doing just that.

I am not a school presenter, don't have a nature center, but ALL of my friends know what an indigo is and most have seen one, and know of their rarity.

What it boils down to is this: I am not obligated to educate the public (although I do) and you as breeders are not obligated to sell to me as such. I appreciate the fact that I have been able to acquire a few outstanding specimens of various snakes from breeders such as you; I do make it known when purchasing that I do not plan to breed.

As a 'pet snake' owner, not a breeder, I am not as concerned bout breedability as I am about attitude, looks, and personality. However, I am not in the market for a kink-tailed snake or a 15-year old breeder.

Here's another suggestion - why not make like cat and dog owners and sell your 'pet quality' or surplus snakes as just that? Perhaps at a slightly reduced price? That way us pet people can have what we want and the breeders can have the top end - and pay for it.

I am hoping to be able to afford another Eastern this year - I had a BEAUTIFUL animal from Steve Binnig that I had to sell when we had our daughter and bought our house.

Just my $0.02

Landon
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Landon Johnson

dorkdog@suscom.net

You have some valid points. My point with the rubidus is that there are very, very few in the United States. Fewer than Easterns or Texans. At this point there aren't enough to be had for breeding stock, much less for the pet trade. If we can breed enough to get enough other people breeding them without inbreeding too much, maybe someday in the next 10 or 15 years there will be enough for some pet animals.

I'm lucky enough to have a pair that produced eggs for me this year. I will release some of those to breeders, keep some and trade some for new bloodline (assuming good luck in the incubating process). At this point I can't see releasing any of those for pets that will not be bred.

With the Easterns and Texans, it's a little different story. There are several people across the country breeding them relatively consistently and successfully and they are not quite as rare. I can't see a problem with a few of those being sold as pets.

And, as I said before, pet owners also educate people without even trying.

Can you all elaborate on where breeding is taking the species as a whole? If you can't release them into the wild, then what is the goal? I don't mean to sound insulting, but I have a "pet" indigo and there is alot to benefit from owning one. I am a native Floridian who is lucky enough to obtain a permit. I think the proper statement is no matter why you have an indigo you owe it to the species to educate everyone about the species and the why their demise is happening. I focus on kids and young adults which is the future (for me, my communtity and indigos).

In return if it wasn't for the breeders I wouldn't have one myself. You all do a wonderful thing in being able to produce more indigos, and understand where you are coming from. Just don't be so closed minded, we all love indigos!
Sincerely,
Roly
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