Reptile & Amphibian Forums

O.K. folks whatya thunk about this? Last summer I met a fellow indy enthusiast who lives in Florida and has been keeping them for many, many years. He keeps multiple females in the same cage on display at the Orlando Serpentarium. He said it's even O.K. to leave a male in there as well. Just not more than one. When I questioned him about this, he told me that females are generaly fine with it as long as they are fairly close to the same size, and of course well fed. Normaly I would still not even consider this, but I am about to aquire some cash to expand my collection, and as I stood in my snake room today, I pondered where I would put all the cages. I am rapidly running out of space!

So I am wondering if anyone out there has any experience to share on this subject. Given the dietary diversity of this species, and a reputation for voracity I am very cautious to say the least. Also I am aware of the cleanliness issue, but my cages are very easy to keep clean and sterile. O.K. guys lemmy have it. But be gentle. My ego bruises easily.lol Thanks,
Tony.

i ran into the same problem tony, too many dry's and not enough space. i experimented around w/ different set ups but settled on 1.2 adults [uni's, bt's, yt's] in very large cages i made and have never ever had a single incident in 5 years......just alot of baby drys. i can't speak definitively for the other subs however. on the other hand though, i never put my kingsnakes together unattended for any length of time. that would be a definite death sentence for one of them. the king snake reputation is actually very well deserved but i think w/ dry's it has been somewhat overstated. in my house at least, unhungry dry's have never attacked each other but quite the opposite and are always coiled up together in the same hide though they have other choices. just my 2 cents.......

I guess what works good for one person may not work well for others. I personally could never see keeping more than one couperi in the same enclosure/exhibit (unless it was a room sized exhibit; something most dry owners would never consider). Even more so, I couldn't imagine keeping a male with a female or multiple females knowing just how rough they are with the "gals" during courtship and mating. One of my prized females, during a typical courting period, received quite a "nip" from my big male that sent her to the vet and came home with over 25 stitches (and that was under my watchful eye!...time to get new glasses). But, if well fed, given LOTS of hiding areas and lots of room, along with proper thermoregulatory opportunities, I suppose it could be done and obviously, it has been accomplished at other facilities...and is probably quite an impressive exhibit! Rob

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation (IL)

I asked the same question many times...and actually tried it with some success for a while in a big cage with 2 large adult YT's,
Until one of them ended up with a bite mark /cut on the back of her neck. I ended the trial there.
I would never even consider it with couperi or erebennus. Not necessarily that they'd EAT each other, but

- males will pester the hell out of females...and may get aggressive if they "are not in the mood"
_ multiple males together would likely fight to the DEATH.

...so the only combination left is multiple females. I asked the reseachers in FL and GA if female couperi ever co-habitated in the same retreat, and it has NEVER been documented.

Bottom line: They don't like it. They don't do it in the wild...they avoid one another other than "ships crossing in the night" in the season of romance.

So, I can only assume that forcing them together is going to seriously stress them.

I can't speak for the central and S american cribos, but I'm assuming what's true for couperi is probably true for erebennus at least...
Dan has had a lot of luck doing this with his cribos. I wish like hell I could do it to preserve space, but I'm not going to risk it anymore.

first off......thanks for not flaming me too bad guys. i kinda expected rougher treatment. lol! interestingly i too have been under the impression for a # of years that couperi were more vicious lovers than cribos based on what i read and what i see 24/7 here. either my males are very well mannered or just plain whipped. they only chase the girls at one time of the year, beginning here [philadelphia] promptly at the stroke of labor day more or less. this will continue off and on [but not persistently] till say Christmas and then drops way off. they just stop. and even the actual mating itself is very tame by comparison to what i sometimes read here. quick recap: he chases briefly, he catches quickly, she accepts him immediately and they'll lie pretty much motionless together w/ no thrashing or biting whatsoever. weird huh?......but dean, as far as the stress thing goes, possibly very initially?.....dunno. but i do know that these animals are absolutely NOT stressed in the least by their accomodations. almost all of mine have been together for years and actually seem to like each other, there's just no other way to describe it. they did stress out however when i decided not to breed this year and separated them back in july. they were visibly upset and would not settle down for weeks afterwards, remaining restless seemingly forever which is exactly opposite of how they normally are......quiet and content it'll be interesting to see their reaction this september when i put them back but i expect no real problems. ......anyway, that's what i've seen so far from my animals but i know that what works here doesn't necessarily work elsewhere.....but that's my report and i'm sticking to it. haha.......happy Easter everyone and let's keep discussing!!

I have had similar instances where there were to many snakes and not enough room. And I doubled several of them up in cages. Most were females.

Then I realized that I had overextended myself, and not gotten proper cageing for ALL the snakes in my collection.

So, I sold three of them, and used the proceeds to get more cages for the remaining colony.

The San Diego Zoo used to keep Eastern Indigos on display in cages with one male to two females. I was always fascinated by that. Never had the guts to try it. I keep them singly.

Thanks,

Fred Albury

as I had BOTH my adult females Couperi together outta their cages last night & saw absolutely nothing. I am SO tempted to try this but living in Canada where it's usually next to impossible to get Indigos & I wouldn't wanna chance it... I DO admire those of you with the balls to try this & I know of several other Indigo keepers that do....... I'll just have to be more comfortable before I try it as BAD as I need the cage space.......

As for Kingsnakes I always find Cal-Kings to be the worst for trying to eat each other. I keep trios of Goini, Brooksi & pairs of Outerbanks together without incident. Of course I feed & burmate them seperately..... now I may get on here next week & be cryin the blues how something got ate... you have my full permission to say "I told you so"

But is there anyone else in here keeping Couperi paired up??? I have mine in HUGE display cages 4'W X 6'L.... any of you regulars wanna comment..... Dean? Fred? Doug? Rob?

Have a great Easter guys....

Dean

Dean,

Currently I am not keeping any Easterns paired up. I HAVE left males in cages with females for extended periods of time dureing breeding season.Mainly because of over extending myself animal wise. Live and learn. The results with the males varied, some are VERY agressive and nearly rub the dorsal scales off the females back. Other, aside from breeding, seem disinclined to even pay attention to the female. Of course feeding is and was a nightmare when caging multiple Easterns. They smell the scent of the rats/mice/chicks when you bring them in the room. Then, if you go to transfer one or both of them out to feed them in separate containers, you invariably take chance on getting bitten, or them biting each other.
Personally...I would err on the side of caution, Indigos are too hard to come by to gamble.Just my opinion and there are many opnions here, all of them pretty darn good if you ask me.
Like the band THE OFFSPRING said in there hit song"You gotta keep them separated" eh'?

*Cheers*

Fred Albury

Although your 6' x 4' cage seems "huge", it is really probably only large enough to accommodate one adult eastern indigo. I can tell you from personal experience, that, couperi will do much better if kept singly. When the males have their mind made up to breed, there's no stopping them...and if the female is non receptive, things can get quite violent in a hurry.

appreciate the response...... I would NEVER leave a male & female unattended period.... waaay to much at stake.... just mulling the possiblilty of housing 2 equal sized girls together of course feeding separate & everything other precaution to be taken. Was thinking of have a huge 'love shack' cage for the male & introducing the females to his cage but thats gonna be awhile yet.

Thanx again guys

Dean

I don't leave my girls and boys together even when breeding for more than 12 hours unless hooked up...I'd be scared to keep 2 together on a permanent basis for any reason...Just my opinion..
-----
Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas

I keep Indigos in separate cages for a couple reasons:

It's crazy enough having 1 set of jaws flying at you mistaking you for a rat... I don't like having to deal with 2 at once.

I have also had a female Texas Indigo get the holy doodle bitten out of her by an overly aggressive male.

If someone else is making it work, well that's pretty darn cool.

I do keep a couple of species together all the time, but not Indigos or mussuranas.

Doug T

Others have said it, but I'll add an opinion. I keep all indigos and cribos in separate cages for ease in feeding, easier cleaning, and individual's well being. I believe that captive snakes may act differently over time because of restrictions of caging. Snakes housed together for months or years might be fine until one harms or attempts to eat the other.