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About GA kings

Tony D Apr 08, 2004 09:23 AM

Keith just to clarify, I wasn’t questioning whether your GA animals were deliberately crossed into gioni but was wondering if there was the chance that the actual geographic locality that produced the founder stock would indicate influence.

After a little bit of searching I would have to say that it isn’t beyond the realm of possibility. Statenville GA is in Echols County which boarders Florida’s panhandle and though Tift County does not directly boarder the panhandle, it is from what I can tell almost due north of ANF.

If we can accept the fact that gene flow occurs between goini and easterns to the point that “pure” goini are becoming increasingly hard to find then we should logically be able to accept that this gene flow goes both ways.

In the late 80’s I picked up 1.2 gioni from Mark Bell. 1.1 were typical oval phased gioni and the other female was a partially striped animal. Through selective breeding I was producing high numbers of pure “looking” patternless animals in 3 short generations. I bring this up because I think a similar thing is happening with these GA animals. It appears to me that what is happening is that the line is being selectively bred for traits we find attractive. In short to look similar to goini. Whether this is possible because of the natural diversity of kings or as a result of genetic influence from an adjacent subspecific I can’t say for sure but I would tend to credit gene flow given the proximity of the founder stock to ANF.

In any case this is a great example of how inarticulate our notions of locality and “purity” are. Here we have locality snakes that, in the course of two generations, have been selectively bred and now express features, greatly exaggerated from those of the founding individuals. It isn’t much of a stretch to say that captivity is the locality because we aren’t striving for a phenotype that would likely have been selected for within the initial founding populations.

All that said they are awesome and unique kingsnakes. Put me on the list!!

Replies (14)

Keith Hillson Apr 08, 2004 10:12 AM

I knew what you meant I just wanted to show what the animals are and yes they do come awfully close to the FLA border so yes Im guessing that there is some relic influence that back breeding is bringing back up. Another good example is the Darien GA male that John Hays owns. It looks like a cross between a Florida King an Eastern and an Outer Banks. Quite unusual and its a F1 I believe.

Another from that area and its a wildcaught. It looks like a wide banded Floridana !

Keith
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sk8r009 Apr 08, 2004 11:22 AM

well, Cyclops is from florida, and looks very similar to some of those S. Ga kings. the chocolate brown and goldenyellow chains is certainly reminiscent of some of those on the eastern king page. and yet, in a way, it also resembles a goini. so, i would say that it seems that getula, floridana, and "goini" are very integradeable and as we can see, it only takes a couple generations to have what is an integrade appear to be a variation of one subspecies. interesting stuff.

haddachoose1 Apr 08, 2004 11:51 AM

I like Cyclops more every time I see a new photo. He's too cool.
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Tim

sk8r009 Apr 08, 2004 01:30 PM

..the evil eye

haddachoose1 Apr 08, 2004 03:19 PM

He'd look good with a patch and a parrot. Arghh, ye swabbies!
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Tim

LamproMan Apr 08, 2004 04:01 PM

He's a sweet looking snake man! How large is he?! Your snake looks like what they used to/still call the Suwannee River King, at least from what I've seen - and I like those yellow-gold crossbars; again, that snake could be found 20 miles into Florida or 20 miles north of the FL/GA line.

This is Philo, a 57" 4.1 lb wc snake from McIntosh Co., GA. Ironically enough, the pic Keith put up of my snake, Augustus to start this thread came from Darien, which is in McIntosh Co!

McIntosh Co. is about 35 miles as a crow flies from Nassau Co, FL (extreme NE Florida). Not the prettiest snake, but he's an old man with some serious battle scars, cataracts (if you look close you can see them - it's not the flash), and a big head - bigger than any of my cb kings with more weight and length. This snake had to be close to 10 years old when I caught him, at least judging from his wc size, his head size, the cataracts, and the battle scars (scratches, healed-bite marks, etc.). The scars aren't that noticeable until you really start to look, but this snake has been around the wild block a few times and no doubt has sown his seed in many a female!

You can also see my 61" 3.8 lbs Brooks, Loco sticking his
freakin' head out of his hide box to see if it's chow time!

-John

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-Keeper of the Beasts from the East.

sk8r009 Apr 08, 2004 04:11 PM

cyclops averaged 67" on serp widget(actual average was 66.98808, lol). he is long, but could be a little heavier. the previous owner fed him small rats weekly. im going to start giving him med. rats every 5 days because he can pound 2 small rats in one sitting and 5 days later hes ready for more.

i have a NC local male right now with a really big head. hes 58" and his head is bigger than Cyclops's. i think i have a pic...

haddachoose1 Apr 08, 2004 05:08 PM

He does have quite the head on him. That is a very nice snake.
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Tim

LamproMan Apr 08, 2004 05:08 PM

>>cyclops averaged 67" on serp widget(actual average was 66.98808, lol). he is long, but could be a little heavier. the previous owner fed him small rats weekly. im going to start giving him med. rats every 5 days because he can pound 2 small rats in one sitting and 5 days later hes ready for more.
>>
>>i have a NC local male right now with a really big head. hes 58" and his head is bigger than Cyclops's. i think i have a pic...
>>

I know T.Davis had that shot of a 75" Eastern, but until we see something we can all use to verify it, you've got the largest Eastern I've seen on this site unless I've missed one. My big GA boy is 66.234" LOL and weighs 4.77 lbs so you've got me by an inch!

Cyclops' seems well proportioned though...if he's like any Eastern I've had to reach this length, they start to really put on the girth after 5-5.5' I know that's what's happening to Augustus.

To save yourself money, you might consider giving him 3-4 jumbo (breeders) mice every 5 days - they weigh about 10-15 grams less than a small rat but are half as much in cost; that's what I do and every now and again I introduce mine to a medium rat to get him used to snarfing down larger prey. The nutritional value can't be that much different but it's sure as hell much cheaper!

-John
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-Keeper of the Beasts from the East.

sk8r009 Apr 08, 2004 05:12 PM

yea, Augustus has Cyclops beat in the wieght dept.

i was trying to breed mice for a while, and they quite producing for me, so i gave them to cyclops. ate em like popcorn.lol!

ill probably try to breed some rats, but i will also try that jumbo mice idea. mine where pretty huge for mice- bigger than the average small rat. might want to breed jumbo mice just for my pine and black pine im about to get until they get bigger.

thomas davis Apr 09, 2004 08:55 PM

im real sick of you insuating im lying about the length of my snake,,,as i have 1000;s of times before ANYONE is welcome to come see him for yourselves even you and again, i will be displaying him at me ETHS expo table this year in sept,,,,plleeeeeeeeze come see him and bring your own camera and tape measures,,,,,thomas

Tigergenesis Apr 09, 2004 07:53 PM

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LamproMan Apr 08, 2004 02:12 PM

First, thanks for putting up a pic of my Mack Daddy Eastern (66" and 4.77 lbs) Augustus Keith - he just tossed back 3 average rats yesterday and is fat as my forearm right now! Keith sold this beauty to me via a friend of his...I think he wishes he kept him since he'll be a freakin' beast and crossed with my '00 K.Enge female they should produce some interesting patterns and big snakes (they'll be bred next spring).

Let's remember, Tallahassee proper - depending on where you live in the city - is only 10 or so aerial miles from the Georgia line and there is, despite all the construction, plenty of habitat remaining for these snakes in the northern counties of Florida and extreme southern Georiga...thankfully.

I've spent much of my botanical career - some 13 years now - pounded it out in north Florida, and especially from Baldwin Co., Al to Jefferson Co, Florida and north ito the first couple of counties deep into Georgia. I know the area well and in terms of ecology, there are subtle changes but floristically, that is the plant life, it's very, very similar in most areas and the soils are similar as a whole (they change quickly as you get two or so counties north into GA though).

I've also spent much of my life in the panhandle and for folks that don't know it or only have seen parts of it, you have to understand how rural much of this area still is; people get an image of Florida and forget that there's more to it than the beaches and the Glades.

The point being that when you say GA/FL Eastern with some lineages of snakes you are talking about the same snake ecologically. There are exceptions like the Apalachicola area, but there are even blotched specimens from Leon Co. (Tallahassee) and extreme southern Georgia (Thomas and Grady Cos.). So, along that bordering area of each state 10 to 20 miles deep the habitat is ecologically very similar, and these snakes are being given "political" names for an area that is ecologically the "same" and intergrades are to be expected - it's basic biogeography really.

Well, enough of that. I just love the Easterns from that area the most - my favs. by far!

-John
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-Keeper of the Beasts from the East.

Aaron Apr 10, 2004 02:32 AM

Tony I would just like to ad to your post. Dealing with my species of primary intrest, alterna, I would point out that while we could say that with selective breeding in a few generations offspring no longer match the wild founders a 3rd generation River Rd. alterna is still going to look very different from a 3rd generation Hwy. 277 alterna.

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