Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello forum,

Crocodilian inteligence seems to be a topic of discussion among crocophiles the world over. So what exactly constitutes intelligence? How would these animals rank among other species? What are the limits of their biology? These are all very good questions which we may not have solid answers to yet.

In laymans terms the crocodilian has a very small brain. VERY small. It is also not a very complex brain in relation to other 'higher' animals. It is more advanced than other reptile species but still is less complex than birds and mammals. It has been mentioned to have a high neuron density for it's size.

Having said all of that the animal has been around for millions of years and has perfected the lifestyle it needs to survive.

Can they learn? This has been shown to be true. They are very good at learning routines and procedures. Are they on the level with mammals? perhaps some lower ones on a good day. But the mammalian brain is a much more complex organ. We have no idea it's potential, oh I guess we kinda do it put a man on the moon.

Crocodilians can be quick learners. But are their behaviours the result of actual 'learning' or millions of years of instinct. Is it really teamwork when a group of Nile crocodiles gather around a kill? They are helping each other as they hold and pull but it is not a 'pack' similiar to wolves or a pride of lions. Each crocodile is trying to get his own. Crocodiles are more individuals brought together by a common cause that receive a mutual benefit. Now have they learned this or stumbled upon it?

It is far easier to imagine a crocodile making a kill only to have is assaulted by neighboring crocs than to imagine a 'pack' of crocodilians consciously hunting prey ala wolves or lions.

Are they conscious? Well considering they have yet to truly figure out what makes humans conscious who can rightfully say.

What are the limits of their Biology?
The brain is small. The cerebral cortex is primitive. We know conscious thought and an entire assortment of functions originate from this area. This alone predicates against them having a huge ability to think. If other parts of the brain had these functions have evolved these functions our brain would look very different.

Where would they rank among species?
Above everything but birds and mammals. What they can learn and be taught from that position is open to a wide variety of opinion and debate. I'm sure in some tests they may prove to be almost mammalian in rudimentary activities and others inferior. I would be suprised to have them ever 'outsolve' a mammal of any type. Such skills are simply a waste of their brain space and energy. They don't need to outthink anyone, there weapons for survival are in other areas.

They are not 'dumb' they cannot be, it's an irresponsible use of the word. But nor can they be 'smart' either. What they are is trainable to the upper limits of their natural biology and thats about all that can truly be said at this time.

IMHO

CD

Nice thinking

Thier not dumb animals, and there not geniuses either...like all animals, they are as smart as they have to be to survive.

Raven -

So many people misunderstand the concepts of intelligence and brain power, primarily because they try to compare apples and oranges - or in this case, crocodiles and humans.

Humans are highly social animals where the ability to solve problems and outwit social competitors has a high selective value - do it well, and you'll pass on your genes. Crocodilians are predators where "higher reasoning" has a much lower selective value compared with other traits such as size and growth. Being "smart" in a crocodilian sense can in no way be compared to being smart in a human sense, although crocodilians still display the ability to learn, recognise signals and individuals, and have a relatively sophisticated social system compared with other reptiles (and indeed some birds and mammals).

The brain of a crocodilian can no more be compared with the brain of a dog than the brain of an ant can be compared with the brain of a squid - they are quite different organs that are adapted to different organisms and lifestyles, and they are extremely effective for what they do. Can you imagine an ant endowed with the intelligence of Einstein? Where would that get it? Absolutely nowhere. Crocs also would not benefit from being able to put a croc on the moon. So we need to get away from these pointless comparisons.

The croc brain does have some remarkable properties, and indeed preliminary studies do suggest they have a higher neurone density than the brain of mouse. That doesn't mean that crocs are smarter than mice, nor would it mean anything if they were, but perhaps the brain's size is constrained by the need to protect it within the skull - nobody really knows.

Crocs can learn, but why? Look at their natural behaviour - they benefit from prey animals that exhibit routines, and use this to their advantage when they ambush them. Does that make them smart? We'd like to think so, but ultimately it makes them more efficient predators, which increases their chances of survival. And that's where crocs come into their own. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Adam

Nicely worded and it makes perfect sense. I especially like the part below about the neuron density. Particularly because it is something that I didn't know. I love learning new information. Now, let me ask you for your professional opinion on something based on the information below,.... even though crocodilians don't ordinarily need to "think" in their natural environment and their instinctual, preditory skills are more than adequate for basic survival and to thrive as a species,.... doesn't the existence of a high neuron density imply that there is a great capacity to expand in areas of comprehension that may be generally untapped for lack of need? That the ability is there, even if not commonly utilized? And what can possibly be achieved in an environment, an existance, that lacks stress and basic survival is not an issue? (>The croc brain does have some remarkable properties, and indeed preliminary studies do suggest they have a higher neurone density than the brain of mouse. That doesn't mean that crocs are smarter than mice, nor would it mean anything if they were, but perhaps the brain's size is constrained by the need to protect it within the skull - nobody really knows.
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Believe in yourself and your abilities and you can accomplish anything.

"crocodilians still display the ability to learn, recognise signals and individuals, and have a relatively sophisticated social system compared with other reptiles (and indeed some birds and mammals)."

Compared to what species of bird ?

Raven -