Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recieved a reply from dfr a few post's back about pine wood potentially being toxic(after being heated). Have any of you heard that? would 4 coats of polyurethane enamel be an adequate barrier against any toxins? I've kept large reptiles in or around pine(heated) for a number of years and haven't seen anything negative. I mean negative like the time many years ago when I put my Baja kngsnake in a tank with cedar shavings for a substrate.
No offense dfr. Just wanted more input. Kelly?

i know dfr is pretty knowledgable but i hate all that talk of which woods are toxic...its so confusing and does seem to change...i dont know why 4 coat of enamal wouldnt be sufficient if done properly...but i know glass is only a problem if it comes in contact with the ground or flourine ; )

` Herpetoculture is a young hobby. Much of what is "known" is opinion, speculation, and dogmatic preconception as well. Prejudice against some small ( or large ) fact can spawn a new belief, or denial system.
` There's a lot of conjecture, and anecdotal story-telling. "The fish usually gets bigger, each time the story is told."
` Then, there are the folks who find something easily deniable because it is too inconvenient, if it's true. And visa-versa.
`
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` The truth is that many things which are mildly noxious can become a big problem when the critter is trapped inside a cage with it, or in a cage made from it. Add a little heat, a chemical oxidant, or an abrasive situation, and you've got a sick critter and you're suddenly trying to find out what went wrong. Coating, and trying to seal a noxious/toxic substance with enamel, or anything else is ridiculous.
` Also, it ain't just wood. Many plants, and man made materials, when in the confines of a cage, become noxious, and eventually toxic. The can simply suppress the snake's immune system. Then, nature takes it course.
`
` I think the critter's well-being is worth getting over "hating it", and "being confused" by it. You've got them in your power, so keep your eye on the ball.
`
` I'm full of opinion, and I love to speculate. When I state something as a fact however, I like to be sure I can back it up.
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`
www.anapsid.org/cedar2.html
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www.anapsid.org/cedar.html
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i believe the hateing comment was directed at me...my point in that was that it was not worth it to me to take the risk since we are finding more and more things to be toxic and things that harm snakes and other animals. ALL of my cages are glass because no matter how expensive it gets...i know it is safe unless it is broken. i work extremely hard to keep my cages sanitary (i spend most of yesterday lining cages with new astroturf..since i think it looks nice and is cheap and clean, and chaniging and disinfecting water bowls). I also stated that you were a good person to listen to. I consider myself a pretty sharp with snake (especially anaconda) knowledge, however (like other people probably do also) i choose to dumb myself up when asking questions because it gets a better response if you dont play the know it all..or else you shouldnt be asking. also i think it is well known in the forum that kelly is usually quick to help with her advice and she probably has more experience with greens than the average bear. I think some people do however...just wait for kelly's advice and i hope others are not offended by this. it should be a better practice in here of listening to other people because im sure there are a lot of people who have experienced many different things. I have noticed many of your posts and agree with about everything you had to say...which is why my intent of saying "i know dfr is pretty knowledgable" meant he should probably listen...maybe the thoughts about confusing wood should have been separated with a comma. i did not spend near enough time completing my thoughts on that post and i will be sure to do so from now on (like now). I totally agree with your point of not taking the risk...i also know that his cage probably wasnt cheap so im sure he wants a way to still use it...i did not want to post on that message because i did not feel established enough in this forum (like kelly..hence the "kelly"? at the end of arik's post) to feel like my opinion would be taken too heavy...i do feel though that i saw a post that had no response and there is no such thing as too much response to a question so i chose to write a quick note saying basically...dfr knows stuff...i am with you that this stuff can get confusing...im sure you can make this cage safe (notice in my post i said if done correctly...this leaves it up to his own conscience whether his snake is safe since i have not gone to visit and see it myself)...i personally dont take the risk with dangerous wood and pay the extra dollar for glass....hope things are clear now : )

` Thanks for the reply. It all makes sense, and I agree with everything except one thing.

` Kelly is a HE. LOL

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hmm guess you cant make assumptions based on a name and photos...i guess when i saw the pics of 2 females carrying the large male green about a page back...it just stuck in my head that way that kelly would be one of the 2...must have been kelly behind the camera LOL. oh well....sorry kelly for the mistake.

No problem at all about being mislead by the name, it has happened many times before. Although the other photos in the series were taken by myself, I must correct you about the photo you are referring to. It was taken by Jud and that is his wife and daughter holding his large breeder male. I apologize if I confused anyone in my post about it's origin.

Kelly

` I know what you mean about posting feeling more comfortable when you're well established.

` I've got to the point where I may feel too well established.
`
` You shouldn't let that slow you down. In my opinion, this will be a better forum if you keep on posting your experiences, and opinions. And pix, too!
`
`

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Rich is correct in that pine oil is a toxic substance. I would never expose a snake to uncoated pine, or use pine shavings as a substrate. I have used a fair number of three-quarter inch plywood cages in the past to house a small colony of burmese pythons. This was before the plastic cages were readily available and more affordable. I did however make certain that the wood was well cured (dry with no strong pine smell or sap) and was well sealed with four coats of a commercial grade heavy enamel. I allowed the cages to set for several weeks before coating and then for a month or two after coating, before using them. I did not notice any problems with them during their use. I raised several consecutive generations of burmese, with highly successful reproduction, in those cages. I think in a properly cured and sealed cage, with decent ventilation, you should be all right. This however, this is just my opinion.

Kelly