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This is a decent photo of Jude, my '02 blotched that's the sister of the same '02s Sean got from Krysko. She's starting to turn more and more light quickly...seems like every month it's noticeable. She shed about 6 hours before I took this shot.

-John
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-Keeper of the Beasts from the East.

Just curious, why do you call her blotched? She looks more like an aberrantly patterned striped individual. And I noticed your comments on the N FL/S GA getula below. Can you define what "blotched" means to you? I always thought of blotched specimens as having oval shaped interbands (dark areas) with very wide bands.

A lot of people refer to Goini or Apalachicola kings as Blotched. My guess is that is what he is refering to. Just like not all "Rosy" Boas are "Rosy" in appearance, not all blotched kings are blotchy in appearance. Some are patternless some striped, some blotched. I'm thinking that must be the interpretation here. INTERESTING snake too! My blotched female (Apalachicola king) was bred this year but is showing no signs of being gravid, and has no interest in the male either. darnitall! She herself is Apalachicola and her mate is (for want of a better term) Goini.... he's a natural integrade between the Apalachicola and the Eastern or Florida king (always forget the exacts on these)

Here's a picture of Pandora when I got her in early '02... she hatched in '01

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~Sasheena

Sasheena,

Pretty snake there!

I agree with you...it's all about how you interpret the word and associate it with the myriad of patterns of the kings of the Apalachicola area. Like I said in my post to Sean, the taxonomy and systematics of this snake are far from smoothed out to the extent that we can say that one word is synonymous with all of the differently patterned snakes of the area.

-John
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-Keeper of the Beasts from the East.

Just curious, why do you call her blotched? She looks more like an aberrantly patterned striped individual. And I noticed your comments on the N FL/S GA getula below. Can you define what "blotched" means to you? I always thought of blotched specimens as having oval shaped interbands (dark areas) with very wide bands.

Sean,

I just used the word "blotched" to refer to those snakes in the Apalachicola area that have different patterns (the ones presumed to be L.g.g backcross with the "blotched" or AK, or whatever people want to call them). This includes the ones with wide bands as well as the ones less banded and less patternless than the presumed "true" AK.

I'm a plant taxonomist (you think crosses are hard to work out in vertebrates!) so what I do understand is that the population genetics and species delimitations for the kings in the Apalachicloa area is far from a settled issue...even in the often fuzzy world of taxonomy. Hell, Bruce Means has been working on them for over 30 years and it's still not a settled issue even with Kenny Krysko's diss. Kenny's diss. is great I think but even he recognized the taxonomic difficulties that still exist with this awesome snake in the Apalachicola area.

I'll be back in Tally in two weeks and this time I'm going to some areas where I've seen DORs and other spots to find some Easterns one, and two, to find some "blotched" of my own. I am forbiddin to catch any snake while on the job but I do remember where I saw them.

That's why when you asked "How many kings have I seen that got away" based on the stories I told I said because I can't catch them although I see them in the field a fair deal. Working for the state of Florida is a good gig and I love wetlands work, so I see snakes out of the kazoo - all types - but if I jumped on every snake I saw I'd never lay a wetland line down...I have to remember what I get paid to do.

I got spoiled in Tally before because I saw Easterns enough so I didn't go out on my own often off the job...not this time around - I know I took it for granted last time. You've been there long enough to know what I mean...if you like kingsnakes, the Tallahassee area is hard to beat for kingsnakes.

In short, I treat the specimens from that area as a "species matrix," to borrow a term from another taxonomist...that is, a species that is/are closely related in anatomy, morphologhy, habitat, and genetic makeup.

So until the issue is resolved to the point where most herpetologist agree on the species delimitations of this entity, "blotched," "goini," "AK," etc. are the same to me (although goini is not a valid taxonomic name at the moment). I know that specimens from different drainages in the Chipola/A.River etc. can have different patterns but it's still a taxonomic mystery in some regards.

I'll tell you an area for kings that could use some serious, focused, herpin' for kings - the area from Perry in Taylor Co. to Hernando and Pasco Cos. north of Tampa - so much land, so little time. Those intergrades there really fascinate me.

-John
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-Keeper of the Beasts from the East.

There are exceptions like the Apalachicola area, but there are even blotched specimens from Leon Co. (Tallahassee) and extreme southern Georgia (Thomas and Grady Cos.). So, along that bordering area of each state 10 to 20 miles deep the habitat is ecologically very similar, and these snakes are being given "political" names for an area that is ecologically the "same" and intergrades are to be expected - it's basic biogeography really.

You said there are blotched specimens from S. GA. So if we're saying blotched, AKs, "goini", as the common names for these kings, I'm curious as to why you said they are found in S. GA. I've yet to see anything from GA that looked like an AK...except for the ones Will produced...but they look more like the AK X Eastern intergrades.

Part of Leon County is in the ANF so AK X Eastern intergrades are expected to be found there.

A post of mine from the other day, not my last message:

There are exceptions like the Apalachicola area, but there are even blotched specimens from Leon Co. (Tallahassee) and extreme southern Georgia (Thomas and Grady Cos.). So, along that bordering area of each state 10 to 20 miles deep the habitat is ecologically very similar, and these snakes are being given "political" names for an area that is ecologically the "same" and intergrades are to be expected - it's basic biogeography really.

Sean's response:

You said there are blotched specimens from S. GA. So if we're saying blotched, AKs, "goini", as the common names for these kings, I'm curious as to why you said they are found in S. GA. I've yet to see anything from GA that looked like an AK...except for the ones Will produced...but they look more like the AK X Eastern intergrades.

Part of Leon County is in the ANF so AK X Eastern intergrades are expected to be found there.

Sean,

Look in Perlowin, page 52 where there is a pic of one by Bill Love where it is referred to as a "blotched king" from S. Georgia. In fact, there are at least two photos of Bill Love's called "blotched," once CB and the one from S. Georgia that says "An intergrade from southern Georgia." I don't know the story behind the pic but contact Bill Love to find out if it's correct...otherwise I'll accept it. More to the point, remember that Leon County borders the GA state line - why would the snakes "stop" there? AGAIN, this is basic biogeography!

And I don't follow you at all. You should have read my message more carefully regarding taxonomy. What are you calling an Apalachicola King? From the literature and persons I've read and know/talked with (who know this subject better than the both of us put together 5 times over) the jury is still out on what the "real" AK is.

There are theories about the extent of the land mass in the Gulf, how the ancestral snakes of what presumably crossed with L.g.g., and how that ancestral snake of what is now represented by most of the snakes we call "blotched" is a relict or extinct etc. But like I said it's not a resolved taxonomic issue by any means unless there is some literature out there I'm not aware of (which is easily possible, it's hard to keep up with everything that comes out in various books/journals) as of late.

And Sean, please spare me the geography lesson...I realize that part of ANF is in Leon County, I've only lived in and near it/the panhandle for years and years.

There's a reason why the taxonomy of these snakes hasn't been worked out yet...because nature doesn't care what we want to call anything and the intergradations are so vast as to defy simple conclusions - sound science sometimes takes years and years. I have to deal with this very issue with endemic plant species I work with, and have worked with for a decade now...it's a real bitc# at times but sometimes it takes years to work out a sound taxonomic decision.
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-Keeper of the Beasts from the East.

John, You and I need to get together and talk when you get back here. I've explained what the AKs are here on this forum several times...with pictures. It's too late tonight for me to do it all again.

BTW, I'm eager for you to show me ALL these spots in Tallahassee where you find/found getula.

"...it's not a resolved taxonomic issue by any MEANS..."
That's just Shakespearean, man!
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Martin Whalin
My Email

Quotes from guys named Carl:

"Science stops at the frontier of logic. Nature does not, she thrives on ground as yet untrodden by theory."
-Carl Jung

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld

>>This is a decent photo of Jude, my '02 blotched that's the sister of the same '02s Sean got from Krysko. She's starting to turn more and more light quickly...seems like every month it's noticeable. She shed about 6 hours before I took this shot.
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>>-John
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>>-Keeper of the Beasts from the East.
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You've been working with the Eastern site for a while now and have been working on your page with Sean regarding AK...maybe you've talked with some folks or have sources that can add clarity to this.

As I said, the taxonomy of "blotched" kings or AK is confusing and when it is resolved (soon, I hope!) you can bet it won't come down to simple difference in color or patterns. As I said in my post to Sean, there's a reason why Bruce Means and others have been working on the taxonomy of this animal for decades...nature's throwing us some curves we can't hit yet! In fact, I'd say in regards to this snake we're being brushed back from the plate or even beaned in the head with all the differences in the specimens we see.

-John

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-Keeper of the Beasts from the East.

I believe Means and Krysko are going to release their full research in to these Kings with genetic info as well. I call them Apalachicola Kings and to me the Blotched animals are the one like Shasheena posted. I mean you wouldnt call a Striped Aplachicola King a blotched right ? So what would you call it then ? Its a very confusing area that Im sure wont give up its secrets easily. I agree with you on biogeography and particular tracts or types of habitat not stopping because of political boundaries and Im sure Sean agree's as well. This type of conversation unfortunatley is hard to talk about in a forum and is best discussed verbally IMHO.

Keith
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nice snake, shes look a lil mean tho,keep her happy for me, shes gonna be gorgeous, thnx for the pic mike.S (love her bands)

"...shes look a lil MEAN(si) ..."
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Martin Whalin
My Email

Quotes from guys named Carl:

"Science stops at the frontier of logic. Nature does not, she thrives on ground as yet untrodden by theory."
-Carl Jung

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld

nah no pun intended mabey its just the individual.