Reptile & Amphibian Forums

If I read right Pastels and Spiders are Dominant genes. So you can breed a Super pastel to a normal and get all pastels/ co-dominant animals. Or if you breed a pastel to a normal you get half pastel and half normal. If all of this is true would there be a lot of spiders and a hole lot of pastels out there. Because you don't have to wait for two or more generations like the simle recessive gene like albinos. Why are the prices high?

That's like saying why do mercedes cost $80K when you see them everywhere....cuz everyone wants to drive one and they will pay whatever price they are offered at.

Like is has been stated before, it's all about "supply and demand". Since the demand is still high on Pastels, spiders, etc, the price will remain high. As the demand tampers off, or as the supply out numbers the demand (think baby albino burms for example) you will see the prices fall. There has been alot of talk saying the price of Pastels will fall greatly in '04.
This is a false statement! Most if not all female pastels will be held onto by the breeders (think BumbleBee Ball, cross of a spider and a pastel). Only a few females will be on the market in 2004. Males will be sold, but the demand for them will still be high. For alot of start up hobbyist will want them to start their own Pastel breeding projects.
So, to re-cap, just think Supply and Demand. As long as there is a demand for co-dom. animals, the price will be at current levels. Only when supply out sources demand, will you see a lowering of prices.
All this comes up usually for one reason....
And I'm not trying to be mean...
But there are alot of hobbyists that would love to have Pastels and Spiders... but can not afford to do so at their current prices. They want the price to fall... so they can buy them.
But in all honesty... you do not want the price to fall that low, that you would see them sold in the local pet store.. Why??
Cause you to want a pieace of the pie... the day you buy your pair and breed them... it's full circle.. think about it...
Happy herping...

Exactly.. that's what keeps this exciting - finally managing to get one of your own and breeding.

Its like my 4000.00 Male breeder Albino that is a 10K snake why? he is 100% VPI Axanthic.. and the off spring

is worth ???? Snow.

Same in dom or co-dom Who has what & who needs what & when..
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0.1 Pastel Col Red Tail Boa - Phoebe
0.1 Normal Ball Python - Barbie
1.0 Normal Ball Python - Ken
0.1 Brz Rainbow Boa - Bonnie
1.0 Brz Rainbow Boa - Clyde
0.1 Green Anaconda -
0.1 Yellow Anaconda -
0.1 Yellow Head Retic - Pandora
0.1 Granite Burm Python - Bella
1.0 Normal Ball Python - Jack
1.0 Normal Ball Python - Jake
0.1 Normal Ball Python - Chrissy
0.1 African Rock Python -Sissy
1.0 100% Het Black Black Red Axanthic Ball Python - Raven
0.1 Red Axanthic Ball Python - Bourbon
1.0 Yellow Ghost Hypo Ball Python - Sunny
0.1 Normal Ball Python HUGE over 8lbs - Scarlet
1.0 100% Het Albino Ball Python - Adam
0.1 100% Het Albino Ball Python - Eve
1.0 66% Het Albino Ball Python -
2.0 66 % Het Axanthic Ball Pythons - "Twins" Ding, Dong
1.0 Albino Ball Python -
0.1 100% Het Albino Ball Python -
0.4 High Yellow Ball Pythons -
0.4 Normal w.c. Ball Pythons - Mistakes
0.1 Jungle Ball Python -
0.8 Normal Ball Pythons -

0.1 Rottweiler - Shadow
1.0 Rottweiler - Reese

Now to expand on why supply and demand stop thinking of only pastels and spiders. Think of how we can use these dom/co dom morphs in breeding new and exciting morphs..IE Albino Spiders. The fact is that the dom and co dom genes have only just begun when it comes to the future. The Albino still holds a pretty good price because of it's versatility in future morphs. Herping is not only about what I can get now. Alot of the true breeders are out to explore new horizons.
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

While YOU may think that the prices for spiders and pastels are high, its all relative.What about when pastels first came on the market for $7500 and even female spiders were $25000? The people who`ve been it this a while may ask "why are the prices for these morphs so LOW. I think male dom/co-dom morphs are dramatically underpriced when you realize the investment potential each one has.For example, lets say you spent $15,000 on a male spider. You breed him to 5 normal females and get 6 eggs per clutch.You should produce 15 spiders and 15 normals.Even if spiders drop to $5000,you will be producing $75000 worth of animals.With breeding your male to some ghosts,pastels,albinos etc, the value of your clutches increases dramatically.Right now ball pythons are the best legal return on your money,period! Remember,lots of people know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Best wishes,Mark Petros

Bryan

I agree with you 100% and what your saying agrees with what I said. However we all know that the average person does not have 7,000-25,000 dollars around to invest(especially in todays economy). Now supply and demand goes both way. If you own 5 $15,000 snakes but people are more worried about getting laid off from their job at the factory or spending 2-3 dollars on gas than purchasing a snake than your still just sitting there with 5 expensive snakes. I agree that some morphs especcially the new ground breaking stuff should be worth way more than what people feel as expensive. There was a time in history when people would pay major dollars for comics. It was not just something for kids to read they became major investments ...and now well just look at how many comic book stores yu see and see how many $5,000 comic books they are selling. I know its to seperate things and a stretch but you get my point . I think too many poeple dont want to take the time or make the investment they want a really cool looking snake cheap and that they can turn around and sell high wich is not possible. If poeple want inexpensive morphs and pretty snakes than then they she get a corn snake.
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

Earthpig,

I will have spiders this season. I have invested quite a bit of money to get were I am today in this project. I also cannot understand the rapid decline on price that many of the breeders are asking. I feel a few just want to get a quick return and disregarding current prices because of poor financial planning.

You made a point on economic changes effecting the supply and demand of ball python sales as it does your example (ie. comic book sales). I do understand where your concerns are on this issue but comic books cannot breed and reproduce themselves. Personally, I hope that I don't sell all my spider hatchlings at the current prices. Don't get me wrong I will offer them for sale but I will not panic if they don't sell. I have many years to make back my investment. How many other businesses do you invest a specific dollar amount and expect to get the same on return per sale? I know of no other.I know I'll be fine sitting on all the unsold hatchlings, hopefully male. So, I may then add all of those males into my breeding program next season. Trust me I'll have no problem finding females to breed those males too.
Do the math. Lets say I pass at getting the "quick return". Lets project that I produce 32 eggs from spider breedings. Statistically, 16 will be spiders (8.8 average). Poor me gets stuck with (6.4). I put those in my program. At some point next season all those males will be mature. Now I have 6 more males to breed 5 adult females each atleast (normals, pastels, albinos etc.). See where I am going? next season I may very well produce 180 additional eggs from spider-???? pairings. As the price then falls I have put myself in a good place to keep up with "big breeders". 90 additional spiders next year just because this poor breeder couldn't sell a few this year. HOLD ONTO YOUR INVESTMENTS!! DON'T GIVE THEM AWAY!! Honor the breeders that bring the morph to market. They did all the hard work!! They made it easy for the rest of us. Make sure you thank them for the snakes you sell and thank them twice for the ones that don't.

Mike King
MK Reptiles

I totally agree. Besides..and this is a big what if..... the worst case scenerio is you get to take care of an incredible animal for a few years before making a profit. Truth is I think most breeders who actually have made it and are making it do it not only for profit but because they love what they do. In my opinion investing in BP's go beyond just a smart business plan..wich the avg person cant see...it is a hobby and passion as well..at least for most.And you can't exactly take your old comics and combine them to back another ground breaking and profitable new morph. My first step was a small one with a pastel ...soon I will save and trade to get another project I really wantwich is a spider(you lucky dog. I hope that new breeders getting into the trade and those looking to purchase dont drive prices down it would be a shame to short change someones hard work and dedication.
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

New breeders looking to buy should help, not hurt the price.

As far as holding back babies vs. reducing prices to sell them all - I would also be tempted to hold them just because I think the potential profit will be better with more at a lower price later. However I'm not sure this practice would really help the long-term health of the market for any particular morph. In the example above you might have hundreds of spiders in a few years. At some point you will want to sell these. I think this hording could result in a sudden drop when the point comes that the hoarders start panicking where as a slower steadier drop might happen in a more open market where people weren’t trying to hold a given high price longer than natural. Good producers should do fine with slow steady drops but the sudden drops could be a lot harder to take. It probably doesn't matter much as there are too many spiders in too many different hands for an artificially high price to be set now anyway. Maybe there are some morphs held by small enough groups to get into trouble but natural market pricing should make spiders relatively safe for anyone with the skill and good fortune to get them to breed.

Ball pythons have small clutch sizes and that makes the demand stay higher than say burmese. Burmese can have as many as 40 babies at a time when Balls can only have about 6-10. This also keeps demand high and prices high.

Yes, with small ball clutches the long-term price of an attractive morph like pastel should be higher than albino Burmese pythons. It will be interesting to see what this price is but since it's still a lot of work to produce large numbers of captive bred ball pythons (even if easier with dominant type mutations than with recessive) I would not be surprised if the price at which supply stops increasing is still pretty high ($300?). I’m also not sure how many years it will take pastel to reach that stabilization price at which the number of breeders stops increasing beyond market growth but it’s probably still a few years off.

Also, more often than not the female ball doesn't have begin producing until after 3 years of age. If she does, then the clutch is normal less than 6. There are exceptions of course, but this is the most likely result in a large sample.

Also, balls don't always produce every year.