Reptile & Amphibian Forums

HI,
I HAVE A 16" BOSC MONITOR WHICH I HAVE HAD FOR ABOUT 3 MONTHS, I HANDLE IT FOR ABOUT 3 HOURS A WEEK AND HAVE DONE SINCE I GOT HIM, BUT HE DOES NOT SEEM TO BE TAMING AS MUCH AS I HAD HOPED, HE SPENDS ALL DAY HIDING AND IS ACTIVE AT NIGHT WHEN THERE IS NOBODY ABOUT.
HAS ANYONE GOT ANY SUGGESTIONS OR PROCEDURES THAT I CAN DO TO CALM HIM DOWN BECAUSE I WOULD HATE TO HAVE TO REHOME HIM WHEN HE IS TOO BIG FOR ME TOO HANDLE

It takes time, and three hours a week isn't much. I suspect if you're reaching in, picking him up, and holding him, you're scaring him. I don't know what kind of enclosure he's in, but if it's not front opening, that may be part of the problem. Most lizards, especially young ones, do not like to be descended upon from above. If it's floor level, so much the better. You can open it, sit and wait, and let him come to you. Try letting him approach you or just touching him. My Sav was about 7 months old when I got him and had been through 4 different owners, including spending time in a horrible pet shop (where he lost the end of his tail because he didn't have water to soak in). He did not at all care for people, so when I first got him, I'd simply open the cage and place my hand in it where he could see it, but it wasn't close enough to threaten him. When he stopped acting suspicious of that, I'd open the cage, wait a little while, then stroke his head or shoulders for a little while, then feed him. I think at first he tolerated the touching because he learned breakfast was next on the agenda. After a while, he relaxed and seemed to like his head being rubbed. After a few weeks of that, he would come and check me out, climbing all over me as I sat outside his cage. I never really did try to get him used to being held, but he didn't mind my touching him and did no more than puff up when I did have to pick him up. You do have to interact with them daily in the beginning to build up that trust.

HI MADELINE.
MY CAGE IS TOP OPENING AND I HAVE BEEN LEANING OVER THE TOP OF HIM TO PICK HIM UP, HE HAS SEVERAL HIDING PLACES SO SOME TIMES I HAVE BEEN DISTURBING HIS CAGE TO FIND HIM.
SHOULD I ALTER HIS CAGE AND LEAVE HIM WITH JUST THE ONE?
THANKS FOR YOUR TIME AND QUICK RESPONSE.

Don't take out the extra hide spots, and stop disturbing him when he's in one of his hide spots. That's their little spot in which to destress and feel secure. It sounds to me like your little sav is very scared and stressed right now. You need to backtrack from here a little bit to gain his trust. In other words, don't try to handle him at all for a week or two (as if he were a new lizard you just acquired). That he's hiding in the day and coming out at night concerns me, as that's not typical Sav behavior. I have a couple of other questions. How is his eating? Is he eating during the day or at night? By at night, do you mean after the cage is dark? Or do you keep the lights on 24/7? Is he basking? Might he be coming out during the day when you're not home?

Because he seems to already be stressed, I wouldn't make any cage changes just yet. It's not critical to have a front-opening cage, just helpful. I'd say back off until he's been coming out during the daytime instead of at night, give him another week, then take it more slowly. Get him used to being touched first, then start picking him up and handling him. Also, handle him for very short periods. I don't remember how you worded your original post...if you meant you handle him for an hour 3 times a week or if you have him out for a little while each day for a total of three hours a week. If it's the former, you're expectations are too high. You'll find very few, if any, monitors that will tolerate being held for an hour at a time. Handle him for a few minutes, then let him get back to where he feels safe. Good luck!

I HAVE BEEN HANDLING HIM FOR ABOUT 20 - 30 MINS PER DAY.
HE FEEDS WELL ON LOCUSTS AND FUZZIES (3 FUZZIES AND ABOUT 10 - 15 LOCUSTS A WEEK) HE DOES COME OUT DURING THE DAY TO BASK BUT AS SOON AS SOMEONE WALKS INTO THE ROOM HE RACES OFF TO HIDE.
I USE A RED BULB AND CERAMIC HEATER AT NIGHT AND WHITE BULB AND CERAMIC HEATER IN THE DAY, I KNOW THAT HE IS STILL MORE ACTIVE AT NIGHT BECAUSE OF THE DIGGING HE DOES AND THE DECOR HE DISTURBS.
THANKYOU FOR YOUR HELP SO FAR IM STARTING TO GET A GOOD IDEA OF WHAT IM DOING WRONG.

Good luck with him! I'm getting a new tegu hatchling delivered on Wednesday, so I'm about to go through the whole "taming" thing again with a new lizard.

THANKS AGAIN MADELINE,
GOOD LUCK WITH THE TEGU, AS I UNDERSTAND THEY CAN BE DIFFICULT TO TAME A CHALLENGE THAT IM NOT READY FOR YET.

Thanks! I'm excitd about it. I've never had a tegu before. He's a Chacoan White Headed tegu hatchling (a variant of the Argentine Black and White). They're supposed to be easier to calm than the Colombian ones that you usually see in pet stores. Keeping my fingers crossed! Good luck with your Sav. Let us know how it goes.

I've been dealing with monitors as "pets only", for 17 years now and I've only had 2 that couldn't be tamed (tolerant is more like it).A Nile and a large wild caught Sav.Don't leave it alone for a couple weeks(unless you bought it yesterday).No interaction = No acceptance by your monitor.Look at most zoo monitors,no interaction and they are untouchable.If your cage is on the ground,raise it up 3'.The lower the cage,the bigger the giant human appears.My 12" Blackthroat was terrified of me(most are).Gradually she stopped hissing,tail whipping and actually seeks me out to climb up on and lay.She will follow me around when I move until I allow her to climb up my leg and sit on my shoulder.i put her in the tub with a little warm water every morning and sat there with my arms in the water and just watched her.After a couple weeks she would swim to me and sit on my arms(to get out of the water).Now she climbs on me and tears my clothes just from her weight(she's almost 5'),but it's okay with me.Just thought i would share.Sorry so long

I still work with her at least 30-90 minutes daily.If I don't interact for several days,she gets more uneasy with me.Still Blackthroats are GREAT tail whippers.Any sudden moves result in a tail lashing!It hurts on bare arms too.

She's pretty! I think I did say in one of my posts that once you start interacting with them you need to do it daily. Do you actually hold yours that long every day? (If so, I'm suitably impressed!) Thankfully, mine was pretty good about forgiving me when I had been out of town and had someone else (who wouldn't even touch the lizards)staying in the house to take care of my animals. I don't travel often at all, but once when I was out of town for a week, my Sav actually came running over to me when I got home, waiting by the cage door and watching me. When I reached in his cage he nuzzled my hand with his nose and head (one of his favorite ways to interact) when I opened the cage then climbed out on my lap. I'm not attributing Hallmark sentimentality to his actions, but I was amazed that he was so forgiving and seemed eager to interact.

Hold NO,interact yes(first thing in the morning,she is good being held for 30 minutes.I use a ceramic heat bulb at night so she doesn't get too cooled down(helps with those big rat meals).She doesn't like to be restained but loves to just sit on my shoulders for up to an hour.That gets pretty heavy and I have wear a sweatshirt to avoid ripped clothes and skin.

I've heard the tub thing is a good way to calm them down. My Sav was the opposite of yours. He was about 8 months old when I got him and had been through 4 owners. He was pretty wild. When I moved him to a front-opening, floor-level cage that I could lie or sit in front of and got around eye-level with him, he calmed down quickly and started approaching me and allowing me to touch him. Then he started coming out of the cage on his own and climbing on me to explore. I recommended not messing with his Sav for a while because it sounds very stressed and frightened to me, and I felt like it needed some stress reduction before he could make progress. Then again, they're very smart and fascinating creatures, and mileage varies. It's certainly good to learn about as many people's experiences as you can when you're working with them.

The sit on the floor at eye level is equal to the raise the cage approach(very smart of you).That's why the tub thing works,you are sitting on the floor and you are'nt so scarey.I wasn't trying to criticize your advice,just add some insight.You seem to have done well.How is your several owner Sav doing?(thats rough on them)

Yes, you're right. Basically the relative height to the lizard would be similar with both our techniques.

Sadly, my Sav had to be euthanized in March at the age of four. The original diagnosis (and later, necropsy result) was cancer, but the labs indicated a long-standing, unidentified inflammatory process that resulted in nodules of scar tissue so extensive they literally invaded every organ. There had been no noticeable symptoms until five days before his death (when he became lethargic, lost his appetite, and quit defecating), and his vet checks had always come back fine. By the time his labs came back so he could have exploratory surgery, he was too weak to survive surgery, and I had him euthanized. The three reptile vets at the clinic were perplexed by his necropsy, saying they had never seen anything like it. They felt it was an autoimmune disease (his kidneys seem to have suffered the worst), but allowed that it might have been some type of unusual parasitic infestation that wouldn't show up on fecal or respond to the oral administration of meds.

The only monitor I have at the moment is a yellow ackie. He's quite the entertaining little clown, though. He seems to think he's arboreal.

That is a beautiful Ackie!!

I recently purchased my first Ackie, she's an adult female who apparently has had multiple owners, even lost a few toes, but she seemed in perfect health otherwise. i'd only had (as far as monitors) timors, who are notoriously skittish.

so far this ackie has been a whole new experience as far as monitors go. we were so tentative with her in the beginning, but she always just seemed so... smart... and SO layed back. she explored all over her cage, even dug and climbed a little. she's fine being held and, we have recently discovered, LOVES to climb up on our shoulders while we walk around the apartment. she has also, on multiple occasions, climbed up on top of my head from this position. i keep forgetting to take a picture of it, it's so cute (picture a little old lady behind a big steering wheel, that's what she looks like).

once we have a bigger living situation (not an apartment!!) we're definitely thinking of branching out into bigger monitors. it's nice to know that there are dwarf monitors who are so friendly!! i highly recommend ackies to anybody, as pets and as fascinating monitors.
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"no time for the old in-and-out love, i've just come to read the meter"

Emily
npoh.egomantra.com

What was the final diagnosis?

The final diagnosis was inconclusive. I don't have a copy of the necropsy report, but I have to return to the vet with one of my dogs this week, and I'm going to ask her for a copy. Anyway, what I was told was that he had extensive infiltration of scar tissue into his organs, including his heart (which seemed to surprise the vets). His kidneys were so enlarged with nodules that they filled almost his entire abdomen and had completely crushed his digestive tract (the reason he was no longer able to eat or defecate). The vet thought it was probably some final exacerbation in which his kidneys enlarged greatly, crushing his digestive system that killed him, but by then the damage was so extensive his days were numbered anyway. The cytology labs indicated that the nodules were scar tissue formed in response to inflammation. Cause of the inflammation was unknown, but the vets suggested a genetic autoimmune problem, as the extensive nature of the damage indicated the process had likely been ongoing during most of his life.

It breaks my heart to think of how much pain he must have been in and for how long, but his behavior didn't seem to indicate anything wrong. He ate normally and regularly, never regurgitated, defecated normally and regularly, remained active, and never seemed to have the sort of temperament problems you would expect from an animal in discomfort or pain. The only thing we've wondered about all along was that he seemed to stop growing in length at about 38 inches, but that was still within the norm, and his weight was okay (he was a little butterball). After he was initially treated for parasites when I got him, he fecals came back clear, and the vet never noticed anything unusual in him (but we never did the sort of bloodwork that might have shown a response to inflammation because they never seemed to be a reason). I always fed him on crickets, prekilled/frozen mice, and occasionally cooked meat, but one of his previous owners fed him almost exclusively on goldfish (leading me to wonder about parasitic infection). I'd would be very interested to hear if anyone has ever seen anything like this in other monitors, and I know his vet would, too.

I feel for your loss, especially since my Sav met a similar end.
Abdominally Localized Malignant Carsonoma unfortunatley killed Mongo, and to compound matters treatment has not been considered for any herp diagnosed with aggressive or malignant cancers.
My vet is going to write a paper on the subject of my case, but what she told me is that she will be surprised if it gets published since many of her peers share the opinion that herps of any kind should not be kept by individuals but only by professionals (what ever that means), so much of the information about ailments that cause death either goes unreported, or is not considered seriously by the Animal Heath Care community.
Looks like once again, its up to the hobbyists to advocate and educate the professionals on the value of caring for these animals in captivity. Surprising how often this happens.
Note: A Big Thank You to those DVM's, Biologists, and others who specialize in caring for our herps!

Again, my deepest sympathy for your loss,

-Kit

Thanks. My condolences to you, too. It is sad that so many vets are only interested in treating cats and dogs. My vet told me that treating herps is often very frustrating because of the few resources they have to turn to.

Forget the word "taming". It does not apply to monitors. Tolerance is the best result you can hope for. As for handling, in my opinion, don't, at all. Leave the poor thing alone for a couple months to get used to you being in the room without being grabbed. Our 15 month old sav at nearly 40 inches is now calming down quite nicely. Still wrestling match on the days I measure him but does not try to bite or whip any longer. I left him alone for almost a year accept for measurement once a month.
It will still be a crap shoot any way you try it. 50/50. If you are not prepared to deal with a 3 ft lizard that hates you maybe a sav(or any monitor) is not for you. Not trying to bash you or be harsh, just trying to be realistic about it. One opinion among many. Good luck.