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John...lamproman...agalinis...whatever you want to be called...

Sean Apr 10, 2004 11:18 PM

In response to your "blotched" king topic below, I thought I'd write up my opinion about this name. "Blotched" King was a common name given to those individuals that have an overall light coloration with dark blotches. "Goini" was a name originally given to those individuals found only west of the Apalachicola River and were basically intergrades between the AK and the Eastern. They basically were the same snake. Over time, both of these names were eventually applied to ALL populations of getula found in the Apalachicola Region...even though they were incorrect. So people found patternless, striped, light colored individuals, etc. and some would call them "goini"...some would call them all blotched. Just because these people used the common name doesn't mean they were correct. If you look at page 63 of David Perlowin's book, the title says "Variation In The Blotched King". Then it shows photos of a blotched specimen, a patternless specimen, and a striped specimen. Clearly the patternless and striped specimens have no blotches whatsoever...but the author called them that anyway. Does it mean it's correct just because it's in a book? I don't think so. I would call each one of those kings Apalachicolas becase each one is so light in coloration.

Now the "Blotched" King shown on page 53 of Perlowin's book listed as a "goini" X Eastern looks very similar to the intergrade I found out in the ANF back in 2002. But is it really an intergrade? One might look at what the surrounding population of getula look like. First off, could that have been a typo in the book? Secondly, we don't know if Bill Love found that snake...only the photo was credited to him. For all we know, that snake could have been found by someone else and not even in Georgia. So to simply assume that it is in the book that it is correct is blind IMO. Let's say that snake was found in GA. Does that mean that this one I found In Mitchell County, GA recently is an intergrade too?

Looks very similar to me. Both have wide bands but I don't know if I would call it blotched. One has to look at the surrounding populations and most getula in S. GA have thin bands. Most getula I've seen around Tallahassee have thin bands. But you get into the ANF and you find getula with wide bands/thin bands and interband lightening...they look different from anywhere else. Sure the Outer Banks Kings have some interband lightening but it's definitely different from the way the getula look in the ANF and Tates Hell. And you won't find a patternless specimen anywhere except for the Eastern Apalachicola Lowlands. So to say the populations of getula in S GA are intergrades just because one picture was put in a book is a bit absurd until you've really proven it.

I look at those wide banded individuals in GA as basically Easterns. They're within the same basic habitat as Apalachicolas but there is that break in where you get typical Easterns in Leon County, FL (N of the ANF) and then you get some different looking Easterns in S GA. Keep breeding those S GA Kings and I bet you will never get a patternless individual. Or even a dark striped king. Those partially striped kings found in GA have always had a light stripe against a dark background...definitely different form the striped individulas found in the Eastern Apalachicola Lowlands.

As for the common name "Blotched", I think it's appropriate to refer to a light colored, wide banded individual like this as an Apalachicola King...blotched specimen.

But I wouldn't call that one on page 53 of Perlowin's book "blotched" because it's overall color is basically dark anyway.

This whole naming of the Apalachicola King is defintely confusing but if you've been out in the Apalachicola Region enough and found kings, you'd realize that the getula are distinct enough to be recognized. Obvioulsy you spent alot of time in the field so I would expect you to base your opinions more on field experience rather than a short statement in a book.

Replies (7)

Keith Hillson Apr 11, 2004 09:55 AM

Speaking of Apalachicola Kings Ive always wondered what the hell is going on with these Edisto Island Easterns. They are a naturally occurring pattern mutation (I guess its a mutation). This one was produced and photographed by Kevin Enge. the parents can be seen on my site they are pictured together.

Another odd bird far away from the Apalachicola area is the Outer Banks King. Carl Bartlett produced some really odd patterned animals when back breeding his stock . These popped up as F1's as well not longterm line breeding to get these.

All of these snake have one thing in common more or less and that they are somewhat isolated or were in the past.

Keith
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kenneth Apr 11, 2004 01:11 PM

Keith, do you know if any offspring from those island chains are available? Is Kevin still working with those? If so, do you have any contact info for him? I have a trio of chains from Will Still and hopefully they will produce this year. Thanks, Ken Leach

Keith Hillson Apr 11, 2004 01:46 PM

Hello

Last I talked to Kevin about he he didnt want his contact info given out regarding the Mosaics. He does have a nice sized group of the Mosaics and Easterns from that Island. I dont know if he will sell any offspring this year at all. Sorry I couldnt be more help.

Keith
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chicagopsych Apr 11, 2004 01:41 PM

I don't think it is fair to attribute the use of the common name "blotched" for all "Goini" to one book. I am by no means an expert, but when I first got into snakes in the late 80's (before the book by Perlowin) every hobbyist I came across used the word "blotched" to describe all Goini (patternless, striped etc.). In college (early 90's)I used to talk to Ron Markel often (author of kingsnakes and milksnakes) and I believe (not certain) that he too called them all "blotched". I never heard the common name of "apachicola" until about a year ago. I am not saying that the tern is new, but "blotched" is a term that has been used for years. Common names are JUST common names. That is why the Latin, scientific, naming system exist. Also, you may not have meant it, but the title of your post sounds very confrontational and mean spirited. These forums should be fun. It's a hobby after all.

Keith Hillson Apr 11, 2004 01:54 PM

Hello

I dont like bad mouthing folks generally but Markel sure isnt an authority on Kingsnakes. He put together a decent book on scale counts etc... (which Im sure he got from another book) but his follow up book on care etc... sucked as bad as any book ive ever seen in my life. It prompted me to write TFH (this was years ago) and there response was you shoulda seen it when we got it ! lol . Anyway Seans point is that Apalachicola Kings were described wrong to begin with. New research is soon to be out so lets just wait and see. I personally dont like calling them blotched Kings as not all are Blotched and the conotation is all wrong. Apalachicola King makes way more sense but hey call em what you want its a free country.

Keith
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Sean Apr 11, 2004 09:20 PM

New research is soon to be out so lets just wait and see. I personally dont like calling them blotched Kings as not all are Blotched and the conotation is all wrong. Apalachicola King makes way more sense but hey call em what you want its a free country.

I agree. I like the name Apalachicola King because it refers to the getula of that particular region. I can see someone saying Apalachicola King...blotched specimen because of the look of the particular snake but calling them all Blotched is basically incorrect as they all are not blotched. I like common names as they basically describe a particular snake but when people use it to describe all snakes in a certain region, and all those snakes don't fit the description, a better name should be applied. And I believe Apalachicola King does a better job at that.

Sean Apr 11, 2004 03:54 PM

Also, you may not have meant it, but the title of your post sounds very confrontational and mean spirited. These forums should be fun. It's a hobby after all.

I didn't mean for it to come across as confrontational or mean spirited at all. In fact, I thought I had put a smiley on the end. I wrote that because I did not know John had changed his screen name once again. Since I've known him, I think I've seen him use about 4 different screen names and was simply poking fun at him which I hope he knows.

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