Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Sparky is my first monitor. I have several people telling me I don't need UVB light.
All my other dragons need UVB. I have naturally set him up with a UVB. Why is there information out there about monitors not needing UVB? I even found this statement on a web site!
Diana

Of UVB if kept correctly is they can have brighter colors, no one has proven otherwise, with monitors its been proven over and over by the use of indoor or outdoor flood lights only. Besides only one or 2 UV lights avavilable for use with reptiles actually produce any at the amount needed at beyond 3 inches (something to think about), 1/2 of them dont even make any to 3 inches.

But what about the absorbsion of calsium for strong bones??
Diana

They dont need UVB to absorb calcium into their bones, it was proven in an independant test with chuckwallas in groups with or without UVB etc blood tests showed no measurable difference in calcium levels etc in the skeleton or blood at 6 months all of the way through 3 or more years, with no difference in growth or reproduction.
You can spend the extra on expensive lights every 6 months or so to mount 3-6 inches away (those are the good ones), or you could spend that money on something much more useful. I use a flourescent light on a timer with my beardies but that bulb is a few years old at least, yet they grow great and lay big fat white healthy eggs. Afriend of mine uses no UVB on almost all of his reptiles with no ill effects, yet they are beautiful. Ive only ever noticed a color difference.

Check out the Yahoo group UVB_meter_owners.
I am a member..lurker mostly.
From there tests they are saying 6 to 12 inches for a MVB.
Heres the addy.
http://groups.yahoo/group/UVB_meter_owners/
I would like opinions please.
Diana

Those meters they use for testing UVB that people seem to buy for home use are cheap and inaccurate. The UVB measurement done on those reptile UVB bulbs proves that the usable wavelength goes no further than 3-6 inches on all but 2 bulbs available, one has a warning to never place closer than 6 inches to the eyes as blindness will occur, and the other is a Hagen 5.0 I believe. The wavelength supposed to use with reptiles is 280-320 nanometers for production of Vit D3.

T-rex claims that its active UV heat bulb's UV penetrates 1 to 6 feet and that they provide 50 MicroWatts/CM2 of UVB. These bulbs also have a life span of 1 year I believe, for about the same price you would spend on a couple of flourescent tubes and heat lamps in the same time period. And no, I don't work for t-rex haha.

Made it one of the mediocre bulbs as far as UV, the best 3 or 4 were flourescent tubes. The same company that put extra phosphorus in one of their herbivore vitamin supplements. Phosphorus is poisonous, thats why they sneeze it off, and its abundant on veggies and fruits. When asked why they did that, they answered that "when a customer walks into a pet store with $6 in their pocket, and they see a product on a shelf that claims to be good for their pet and they dont have that product at home, they want to do the best for their pet so they will spend that $6 on that product".

That's annoying that T Rex did/said that. I've never used a mercury vapor bulb, I'm just going off what they said. I don't see how they can get away with saying 1-6 feet, but it actually tests out to be 3-6 inches! Isn't that false advertising AKA straight up lying?

What do you consider a cheap meter?

monitors are fossorial animals, therefore they don't have a whole lot of benefit for uvb rays.

but a beardie, i mean dude you can see benefits right in front of your face. they grow faster and look a lot better.

i wonder with some of these black snakes everybody is having trouble breeding if a little extreme uvb a few hours a day wouldn't do? like boelens, somebody lend me a pair please and i will do the experiment. lol

andrew

Andrew,
It is usually not worth replying to your posts, but you are really full of clamjuice on this one. If monitors are fossorial, then so are bearded dragons. Do you even know what the word fossorial means??

fossorial animals are those that have feet adapted to digging.

beardies have feet mainly adapted for climbing on top of fence posts to get sun, monitors have feet adapted for mainly going underground or getting into tree trunks. monitors bask but it isn't for getting uvb rays.

andrew

C'mon Andrew, lay off showing what you don't know. Seen any feet on caecilians, amphisbaenians, blindsnakes, legless lizards, etc., lately?? And we're all glad to know that you can put a period on the comment that monitors don't bask to conduct vitamin synthesis. Duh.

sam, i don't have a problem with you.

but just because you have a couple of initials before your name does not mean that i don't know a few things as well.

please stay on topic though, it was beardies and monitors.

could you please post a picture of a beardie burrow?

you know, one used as a residence, not nesting material.

andrew

The whole UVB argument isn't whether or not monitors in the wild use sunlight to synthesize vitamin D3 so they can absorb calcium , the argument is whether or not this synthesis can be replaced by dietary vitamin D3 in captivity.

As far as monitors being fossorial, are you saying that monitors like V varius and V salvadorii spend most of their time underground?

no, and i had already responded to that, arboreal monitors.

because someone called andrew owen said these two things:

"monitors are fossorial animals, therefore they don't have a whole lot of benefit for uvb rays"

"monitors have feet adapted for mainly going underground or getting into tree trunks. monitors bask but it isn't for getting uvb rays."

This message is for that other andrew owen, then: The argument isn't about whether or not monitors benefit from uvb rays in the wild but whether or not those benefits can be replicated with dietary D3 in captivity.

again dk, you failed to read what i wrote.

again, above you will find reference to monitors that climb trees (arboreals)

Is this your reference to arboreal monitors?
"monitors have feet adapted for mainly going underground or getting into tree trunks."

X

How is a beardie any less fossorial then a monitor?? Maybe if you had said a specific monitor you'd be somewhat Ok. But come on beardies burrow and are on the ground or below it as much as a monitor even more so then some monitors.

Now if you want to see a real fossorial reptile get a legless lizard, or how about xenopeltis unicolor (sunbeam snake) I used to work and breed them. They are always underground.

That's exactly my point, Jody -- no disagreement here. Most terrestrial reptiles spend more than half of their lives "inside", whether in a burrow, a rockpile, hollow log, leaf litter or whatever, and we don't call them fossorial. The only real exceptions are those arboreal herps that usually "sleep out", on the tips of branches and so on. The term fossorial means "adapted to living underground" -- like moles, or the burrowing lizards you mention. By that criterion it is simply ridiculous to apply the term fossorial to any monitor, and equally absurd to suggest that they avoid exposure to sunlight, as truly fossorial reptiles do.

haha I hear ya man. I don't quote understand the logic behind it myself.

It is what it is and what it is does not pertain to what was mentioned. I bred and produced sunbeam snakes and I tell you besides my sand boas I have never seens something stay underground so long. The only time they came up was to eat, or drink.

I wouldn't dispute monitors not burrowing but they certainly do more then that. They also fit in as a sun worshipper. The true fossorial animals are not sun worshippers.

But maybe Andrew is just bad at making his point, will have to see what he says.

The only time a bearded dragon burrows is to lay eggs. Other than that, most of their life is spent in small bushes and fallen branches. They use a lot of camouflage, so they don't need to burrow. All they need to do is slip into some branches or a bush and they're gone. They also spend much more time in the wild basking then hiding. They hide when predators are around, and when they sleep.

But anyways, I don't see why someone wouldn't want to buy a stupid little light that can have a positive affect on your reptiles. I just feel that it's money well spent for piece of mind. Supplements are always the way to go for a good healthy lizard, but lighting is good too. I think something else that needs to be understood is that it takes less than an hour under the sun to get the amount of UV rays that you get from a uv tube in 24 hours, so how can you say that a monitor is not benefitted from it? They obviously have to come out to bask, or else they would never digest.

So really, it's just a matter of whether or not you're going to spend the extra money on it. I could see the point of not wanting to use it if you're a big breeder and do all the right other stuff, but if you only have a few cages to light up, why not?

i have quite a few cages. i can tell you right now though that if monitors benefitted from uvb i would have uvb bulbs.

they just do not. they do not become more colorful, healthy, less tame, breed more often or anything else.

hmmmmmmmmmmmm,

you would be correct if you said, hey andrew, you have never been in australia and watched beardies in the wild.

i have kept and bred them in captivity and offered them the same setups as monitors and they use them differently.

i have no empirical evidence that beardies need uvb, but they show more benefit to it than monitors. with my monitors a simple diet change will effect their behavior and looks, not an outing in the sun.

andrew

maybe the problem is that we need another word.

like more fossorial, only i don't think that webster would go for it, lol.

i understand what you mean about those snakes. we also have a very fossorial snake around here, so much so that they have very tiny eyes, rubber boas. you can only find them out and about at night to heat up on the asphalt, i mostly find them under boards i set out.

andrew

Haha are you kidding me more fossorial less fossorial? Fossorial is simply that.

A mole is , a rabbit is not.

Now lets see why a mole is because it lives underground and comes up only for short periods of time for a specific resource.

Now the rabbit is not as it only burrows to retreat, make refuge underground not to live. It's life is carried out above the ground.

So again the bearded dragon and monitor are in the same boat. I would not say either is fossorial. You can say a monitor may dig better or more often it may burrow. But you cannot tell me they do and beardies do not.

Also do not judge them by feet. My chameleons can dig a nice burrow come time to lay egg's they have the least adapt feet to do so.

Look for other signs of fossorial as you said tiny eyes, shovel nose, etc.

Oh and incase you think moles and rabbits are apples to oranges you can replace the mole with a sunbeam snake and a rabbit with a monitor.

it is apples and oranges first off.

secondly, if you had read my reply to sam i had mentioned nesting. monitors dig for more purposes than nesting, they dig for residence.
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andrew

Varanus Creations

Again then simply replace the mole with a sunbeam snake as it is an actual fossorial reptile, and replace the rabbit with a monitor.

Like a rabbit the monitor goes to ground to nest, seek refuge, sleep, hide out. it does not go there to live out life, breed, eat, etc. it does this above ground.

Like the mole a sunbeam snake lives underground eats, sleeps, breeds, nests, etc. all underground.

If your monitors are spending 90% of their time underground then you probly have something wrong in your setups.

Please look up the defenition again as you still do not seem to understand it.

who were both fed a decent diet but lacked any exposure to UVB. The one was euthanized and the other rehabilitated really well after being exposed to a mercury vapor lamp for 12 hours a day. These are just 2 examples of dozens of cases of MBD that we've seen, most of them due to lack of UVB.
'

I don't use UVB on my monitors or my adult Tegus, but I do use it on baby Tegus since I've seen the beginning tremors of MBD in some that haven't had exposure to UVB.

I would suspect that both of those iguanas were fed a poor diet, rather than a decent diet. I doubt their condition was the result of just a lack of UV lighting.

As I mentioned in my post just below, I have raised several iguanas with little UV lighting and 2 of those iguanas are approaching 9 years old. A third is 6 years old and a rescue who recovered quite nicely with no UV lighting. A 4th iguana I had was also rehabbed at 2 or 3 years of age and the size of a slightly bigger hatchling. This iguana grew rapidly once in my care without UV lighting.

Below is a link to a few pictures of the iguanas that are approaching 9 years.
Iguanas

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^x^ Bloodbat ^x^

Do you suplliment them with D3, since you donot use UVB's?
Diana

Unless there is something genetic involved neither of those iguanas seem to have the size that you'd expect in a 9 year old lizard. The males that I have here that were raised adequately have SVL's of at least 22 inches (up to 25 inches) and STL's of 68 inches and more and attained that size by 5 years of age.
Believe me, I'm not a sucker for advertising. I either test a product myself or listen to other "keepers" that have tested products. I do believe that exposure to UVB is essential for the proper growth and health of the Iguana species that I keep, which include Greens, Cyclura, Ctenosaura, and Dipsos. The MV bulbs have been tested by a group of people that I know, and with the exception of some very pricy Westron bulbs, they do produce more and longer lasting UVB than any other bulb on the market. Since I do privately funded (by myself) rescue and am currently caring for 30 Green Iguanas, I need products that give me the most value for my buck. I've seen good results with the MV bulbs.

haha watch out for the hounds.

Were thos erescued iggies? It is very possible they lacked protien in there diet as youngsters.

There is alot of things that come into play with reptiles. The lights will not hurt them but you may or may not need them.

I come here to learn about keeping my monitors, just like everyone else. I also visit for the entertainment value because some of the egos here are just laughable.
You pretty much hit the nail on the head. Reptiles may need UVB or they may not. I choose to err on the side of safety. If they don't need it, providing it certainly isn't going to harm them. If they do need it, well, then I have my bases covered. I don't provide UVB for adult monitors and tegus. I do provide it for baby tegus because I've seen the tremors of MBD starting in those that didn't have it. And, like I said, I do provide it for all of the Iguanids.
The BRN's are still putting on length pretty quickly but are still streamlined looking and not very hefty. I'm hoping they start putting on weight when the growth in length slows down. They don't ever miss a meal but I don't think I'm underfeeding them. We're having fun with the little Timor monitor and the Argus has got to be one of the smartest critters in the house. I'm thinking about keeping Rex, the Sav, because he gets along so well here and he's calmed down considerably. Plus, I've kept a good sized Croc for a little while. So, I guess I have reason to lurk in the Monitor forum, huh?

haha nah come on you can visit all you want.

Glad to hear all your monitors are doing well for you. You should post some pics of them on here sometime. Everyone is often asking for BRN pictures.

Why have so many iguanas and many other reptiles been bred, born raised, grown, and reproduced just fine in captivity for so long but a few individuals insist that an add from "blah blah reptile" proves that their product is needed? Uneven test parameters, oh bad diets for long periods of time are only going to cause that animals problems. I guess all of the thousands of iguanans my frind and his wife have raised and reproduced for so long without UVB lights are not any proof either, and ya know they have so many old long lived ones to.

I'm more of a lurker on this forum but in this case i have to say something, I have a 5 year old iguana with minimal sunlight exposure, she gets only the best food, but she has never seen a uvb light, she has been outside maybe for a week total in her life, and she does't have MBD. She is perfectly fine and is aproaching 4 1/2 feet with 3/4 of her tail(she got out and we couldnt find her for a while, but we found 1/4 of her tail in a heater.) I really don't think reptiles need it, if they are fed proper diets, and receive adequate heat, then they will be fine.
my 2 cents.

The reason many people say monitors do not need UV lighting is because there are quite a few people here who raise and breed monitors without the special lighting. It may be that there are some benefits to actual sunlight, but the bulbs sold for UV lighting make very little, if any, noticeable difference in health. Most people simply mention that the animal's colors look brighter.

I have raised and bred monitors without UV lighting. Some others on this forum have done so more often and longer than I have without specialized lighting. You mention you used it for all your other dragons. I do not use UV for any of my animals. I have 2 iguanas who are going to be 9 years old this summer and they have not seen UV lighting in years, not even sunlight. My third iguana will be 6 years in my care (rescue) and has never seen UV lighting. All three are healthy and active. Tell that to iguana people and they flip out and call me all sorts of unpleasant things.
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^x^ Bloodbat ^x^

Do you have any problem with MBD??
Or do you supliment with D3??
Diana

I never had a problem with MBD until very recently.

Most of my monitors were raised on crickets and rodents. I supplemented occasionally, but not nearly enough to prevent problems. Basically, I might have supplemented once every 6 months, and only because I would see the container of powder sitting around and tell myself I should use it. The same applies to my iguanas, although I seem to recall a period when I supplemented them a bit more than that.

However, I have a clutch of salvators that were eating only crickets - unsupplemented - and a few of them developed symptoms that indicated MBD. 2 of those died, although the third appears to be fairly well recovered now that I am adding supplements. 2 of the clutchmates never developed a problem, although one of them was the first to eat pinkies.

A variety of reasons were given for the appearance of MBD in this clutch. Although I would like to know for sure, I have taken a few steps I believe will resolve the issue. I add supplements to my crickets now. I also supplement the female salvator. I doubt very much that a UV bulb would make any difference, and there is no plan to those to my husbandry.
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^x^ Bloodbat ^x^

Welcome to the monitor forum, Diana, where you will find all kinds of resistance to the idea that monitors might need UVB light. There is plenty of evidence from research on this topic that monitors that receive UVB have "normal" calcium and vitamin chemistry in their blood, and that monitors kept without UVB do not. That said, it is evident that monitors are able to bypass the normal UVB-mediated synthetic pathways by making use of dietary Ca and vitamin D, and that you *can* keep (and breed) monitors without using UVB.

What amuses me (and will probably amuse you) is the ranting that always follows anyone making the suggestion that captive monitors will benefit from UV. If you take the time to read through all of the posts that will erupt like mushrooms to say how full of crap I am, you will see that they are all "performance-based", in other words, of the form that "I have bred 18 million monitors, and they don't need no nothing like no stupid UV". Maybe they don't, for the reasons noted above, but then again maybe they do and most keepers don't have the experience to recognize the differences. Very few keepers have ever seen a wild monitor; the tameness and tractability that keepers appreciate is not really evident in wild animals, and to my eye most captive monitors (no matter how quick and responsive they are) are really sleepwalking compared to animals that are living out bush. Is this difference solely due to UV? Of course not, but neither are the counterarguments I've seen convincing as to why UV is not worth the trouble to provide.

Sam

Perhaps you meant me, perhaps you meant others. However, I do not dispute that UV may be beneficial. In fact, I was, and perhaps still am, inclined to believe that to be the case. These are animals that spend time in the sun and I cannot believe they would derive no benefit from it. However, we are talking about the bulbs. I have experimented with the bulbs and know others who have done so as well. I do not see any detectable difference (I do not even see the color changes). I have not raised animals on constant UV exposure so perhaps I would see a difference after such a lengthy period of exposure or lack of exposure.

However, when reading up on the bulbs it became apparent, by the manufacturers themselves, that the UV was only good for a few inches and the bulbs had a short lifespan. That made me question just how much of a benefit my animals were receiving from such a bulb. So I dropped the bulbs from my husbandry. Despite the vast amount of hardcore keepers (especially iguana keepers) who guaranteed my animals would decline and be dead in weeks/months my animals did not die. Years later those same iguanas are still around and appear to be doing well, and my monitors are still around and doing well and breeding (another thing that was guaranteed not to happen). Everyone was supposed to be dead by now (I get these predictions from a lot of people about a lot of things).

I am a scientist at heart. However, I am limited in what I can observe. I do not have the capacity to take blood samples and measure nutrients. I can observe only behaviors and apparent health. My animals seem to "pass" on those indicators, and they do so without UV lighting.

I am willing to bet that if I put all my animals outside in the sun, they would act different and perhaps be healthier. This is not an option for me for many reasons. When I used specialty bulbs, I saw no difference. So, keep in mind to distinguish the UV bulbs from sunlight.
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^x^ Bloodbat ^x^

No Bat,
You're exempt from that one – it's the "more you read the less you breed" crowd that has gone ballistic on this topic previously. The practical issue that you raise is of course an important one – most of the available bulbs don't put out much UVB, or their output declines quickly with time, and they don't last real long when you consider it's a $40 item. However, I do think that the focus on "effective distance" can be a bit misleading. Usually those minimal distances refer to the equivalent of duplicating sunlight, and that's not really what it's about – rather, by providing some UVB you give your animals a second pathway to keep Ca metabolism and vitamin D titers at appropriate levels. Even if it is a fraction of what natural sunlight provides, it adds up, and cannot hurt.

Why are you saying that? You have a problem? Why don't you give your opinion, and not attack others?

I am afraid, when your talking about captive monitors, You don't "need" UVB bulbs. No one has said not to use them. Did they??

If you "want" to use them, go for it. No one is stopping anyone. Are They?

In my opinion, there are many elements with varanid husbandry that are far more of a concern then UVB bulbs. Particularly when its not needed.

There are many new keepers that are led to believe that with the use of those bulbs, there calicum problems are over. But much to their surprise, they are not over. There is simply more to it then a litebulb. Useable temps are far more important to understand. How the monitors use them is also important.

I do keep monitors inside with normal store bought bulbs, I also keep monitors outside. I see no different in overall health, or function. All of our monitors are raised on incandesent bulbs and that is where the criticial need for calicum is. When growing quickly. I say again, we do not have calicum problems.

You seem to mention this and that, without any specific details(about the need for UV). Here we have the ability to offer specific details related to our personal experience. I believe that is what the forums are for.

I believe, the people are suppose to read and do their own research, as well as come to these forums. The forums are more about talking to people who are actually doing what is of concern. Remember this is in addition to other research.

It puzzles me that you do not understand that. Do you think forums are books?

What do you personally have to offer about the subject, have you raised monitors with and without, UVB bulbs? do you have some personal insight?

Once a few years ago we had a discussion on this subject. So I actually figured out, how many bulbs I would need, the price, how long they last, etc. To that point in time, under manifacturers instructions, I would have spent over a million dollars worth of bulbs. Good thing they are not needed, or I would be totally broke.

With the above it mind, you must understand, there are many ways to skin a cat, thank goodness there are other ways, cause that way sure is expensive.

Are you against other ways to do things, or are you just against mine? How odd you are Sam.

I read you mentioned above about how experience and results are not appropriate to use in these explaining whether UV bulbs are needed, what do you suggest we use, heresay and hamsters, is that what you use? FR

You just proved the point I made to Diana in my first post in this thread.

I thought people come here to share and enjoy monitors. Some come here to ask about hands on experience. I surely didn't know it was about making silly points.

You see, I still have raised generation after generation without UVB bulbs, how about you? Now, what was that point? FR

Sam, again, all respect to your degree. i too am attempting to get one in my field, it is difficult, the bachelors was like highschool, the grad degree seems more like they said college would be.

about the topic: tame monitors for one. i have no idea what you are talking about. i don't own a tame monitor. my monitors hate me with a passion and run away when i get near. some of my monitors are less skittish by nature but some just plain out hate my guts and whip the plexi glass, huff and puff and will bite when given half a chance.

secondly, if you are going to quote something, show it. if you are referring to 1980's research about komodos and savs that get a little sassy when put outside, than say so. if it is up to date information then show that as well.

andrew
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andrew

Varanus Creations

I have raised 50 generations of monitors and many generations of dragons and chams, without any added UV. I raised them with incandesent and Halogen bulbs. We are mostly using incandesent bulbs now.

My monitors grow up as fast and strong as anyones, and perform very well(some say too well)

I believe heat is required and thats what we support.

I also get the feeling, many folks are duped by adds. Many big name producers of reptiles are seen holding a, this or that. The ones I know personally, did not use the product until they agreed to the adds. Then many still didn't. They just did the adds. Do you understant that? The product folks, whether it's bulbs or vitamins, approach keepers who were successful already(before using said product). They do not go to unsuccessful ones and try and turn them around.

I have been approached many times. I have answered them honestly, there product was simply not needed, of course, I made no money for that(being honest).

I think of the use of vitamins and UVB bulbs, etc, as a bandaid approach. That is, your using something to fix something. I simply try to prevent it from happening in the first place. Then there is no need to fix it.

The proper temperature choices and the ability for them to be used is most important. Of that, the ability to use them is what is not understood by most. Please consider what I have said. Good luck FR

Allmost all reptiles benefit from proper lightning. The closer it is to natural sunlight, the better...
Of course a lot of products only cost a bunsh of $ and dont work...

Concerning monitors i cant help you, because i dont know enough about them.

best regards

ingo

N.P.
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.