Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Sorry I fell off the face of the earth again. Finally got moved into my new place though.... Anyway, so uric acid is produced from the breakdown of protiens and I assume that this is what forms the solid urates in beardies? If so, I'd say that that could have something to do with the urates being larger, but chalkier? And what about the constipation? I soak my beardies evryday so I'm still wandering if the protiens are plugging up the dragons. Like I said when I was taking the protien shakes and working out alot I would get constipated too. I would have to drink ALOT of water and fruit juices to stay regular as long as I was using the supplement. I still don't understand though what else makes up the urate. If uric acid has a part, is that what turns solid or is there other things such as water solluable supplemants that help form the "final product" LOL

Also could it be that the type of protiens used in the supplements causes an increased amount of uric acid to be produced? I know that chicken is really good for you and has alot of protien but if you grind up a chicken feather and ingest that it will kill you beacuse it is almost PURE protien and the body can't break it down. hmmmmmmmmm. Maybe we are getting somewhere?
Like I said, I've had great results from the product. Just trying to figure out why others aren't. MAYBE THEY ARE SUPPLEMENTING WITH OTHER THINGS THEY SHOULDN"T IN CONJUNCTION WITH THIS PRODUCT? ANy thoughts and feedback are appreciated.

Later,
Robert Wood
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I know you like to think that your $h1T don't stink but bend a lil closer see your roses still smell like poo poopoo
( OutKast )

When I had my beardie on it he was not getting any additional supplementation. This kinda pisses me off because it was really nice to have only greens and just sprinkle some of that powder on them. Oh well I guess I'll keep cuttin' away at the veggies. My beardie is so darn picky, though, when it comes to veggies.

The only thing I can think of with mine is I should have used the VMF instead of the VGF since there is less protein in the VMF. I might try that and see what happens. I don't know, though. I'm just nervous, I don't want him feeling bad at all and this stuff is so new!!

I hope there's some more feedback soon so we can get this stuff figured out.
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Rob Talkington

Well my guys have been on it since Feb 26th. Other than the urates there have been no other effects other than growth. They haven't had a problem- I wonder if its because of all the moisture in the silkworms I feed.(I don't know) I have stopped dusting the silkworms with ICB because I don't think they nessarily need it if I'm dusting their salad which consists of a spring mix plus anything else I might throw in. On Feb 26 Jess was 9.5 inches and weighed 33 grams-Goldberg was 12.5 inches and 82 grams that same day. As of yesterday Jess was 11.5 inches and 70 grams - and Goldberg is 16.5 inches and 230 grams. They are both very active and happy so far.

Gabby

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1.1 Bearded Dragons-Jessie and "Goldberg"
1.0 Geo 4yr orange munchkin
0.2 Dogs- Wendy 7yr Lab/Tori 4 yr Boxer
4.1 Kids plus Hubby

Robert,
I know what you mean about the MRP's and protien drinks...lol. All you have to do in that scenario is balance you diet with whole grain carbs and veggies and fruit to add the needed fiber. Some of the newer MRP's are using carb sources higher in fiber, like oat , brown rice and barley flours. If you get back into the working out, Prolab puts out a great product called lean mass matrix.

Moving onto the main topic at hand. I can't comment on the constipation, because I have not experienced it with any of my dragons using the products. If it becomes a real issue, I would suggest a vet visit to figure out the problem. To clarify, Urate is basically the salt of uric acid. The uric acid produced from protien metabolism becomes urate which is the solid crystaline solid that is passed by reptiles and birds. As far as I know, it is mostly if not all urate.

"Also could it be that the type of protiens used in the supplements causes an increased amount of uric acid to be produced?"

It is likely that the type and amount of protien in the products increase the amount of urates. The type of protien used is isolated whey (another common ingredient in sports nutrition products). It is a very high quality protien quickly surpassing egg white as the "gold standard" of protiens.The presence of more urate means that the dragon is metabolizing more protien, which I would think is a good thing for growing dragons and breeding females.

As for the chicken feather thing, I have never heard of that before. If it is actually toxic, it would have nothing to do with protien,sounds like an urban legend to me...lol. Hope this helped a bit.

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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

"I've had great results from the product. Just trying to figure out why others aren't. MAYBE THEY ARE SUPPLEMENTING WITH OTHER THINGS THEY SHOULDN"T IN CONJUNCTION WITH THIS PRODUCT?"

While yes, this is obviously a problem for those who do this, I think most of the well informed people on this forum have not. I know I didn't oversuppliment, but my dragon had constipation, dispite having runny feces due to giardia. He also was not getting better after 2 months of treatment. While my vet did not directly accuse the suppliments, he did advise me to switch back to my old suppliments. He also advised me to cut back a bit on the veggies and fruit, and give him more prey items, that maybe he was overhydrated. I honestly don't know if the suppliments are to blame or not, he did gain some weight and show more color, but he also got extremely lethargic and constipated. He hasn't been off them long enough for me to see a difference, so I don't know. Time will tell.
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

Ocho just had his first solid movement in over two months! All that's changed is he gets a little less salad and a little more prey, and the change in suppliments. Can't argue with results!
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

>>Ocho just had his first solid movement in over two months! All that's changed is he gets a little less salad and a little more prey, and the change in suppliments. Can't argue with results!
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Hmmm actually I could "argue" lol

If you had only changed one thing instead of the combination of three things then we could have some good facts to go on. Don't get me wrong, I am VERY happy and glad he is having good poos again, but you changed three things in his diet. Lowered the veggie intake, increased the protein intake and changed sups.
Basically by lowering the veggie intake you also lowered his moisture intake at the same time.
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
LIVE hatchling web cam 8 - 8 EST
www.beginnersbasics.com

Sorry, I could have phrased that better.

I didn't mean that because he had solid poo it obviously meant the supps were bad. You're right there is no way to know given that more than one thing changed. I'm just saying that obviously I did something right, and I'm not gonna mess with it while I'm getting good results. I'm very happy so I'm gonna stick with a good thing! Eventually when he's 100% again I may try putting him back on the T-Rex and see if he gets lethargic again. For now I'm just glad he's starting to do better!
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

For now I'm just glad he's starting to do better!
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Yes! So am I. It is always good when things start "looking up" and a once ill dragon starts to recoup.
I once bought a male from another breeder here in Florida and it took me months to get him healthy. I was about at the end of my rope with that one! He was housed, fed and treated exactly the same as my other dragons, but only he was ill. Eventually he got better and was sold as a pet to a lady in Texas. She still sends me updates on him from time to time. You may remember me posting pictures of him ... His name was Jake. He was bright yellow on his legs and head and yet creamy white on his body.
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
LIVE hatchling web cam 8 - 8 EST
www.beginnersbasics.com

I do remember Jake! Glad to hear he's doing well now!

As for my lizards.. I have more questions.....

"Basically by lowering the veggie intake you also lowered his moisture intake at the same time."

Ok. Both Ocho and Domo were having runny, smelly stools. My vet suggested this was probably due to too much salads and not enough prey, and also recommended I change back to the old suppliments.

Since there are no facts yet to suggest the supps had anything to do with it, let's assume it all had to do with the diets.

So my question for you is, have you ever had this problem? What percentage insects and what percentage salads do you feed your lizards? I was doing about 80% salad and 20% insect for Ocho. Most of what I've heard say this is right, but my vet said that it should be the opposite! I was reluctant, so I went to 50/50, but it's obviously done him good. For Domo I still give mostly crix because he's a baby, but I give him the crix and the salad at the same time now, so that he will eat more crix than salad. It's worked for him too. I'm just so confused now, cuz it seems like everywhere I look people say it should be mostly salads, and their lizards do great on mostly salads, but this did my babies no good.
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

>>
>>So my question for you is, have you ever had this problem? What percentage insects and what percentage salads do you feed your lizards? I was doing about 80% salad and 20% insect for Ocho.

I am probably the wrong person to ask that question since my dragons get very little in the way of live foods. The adults get live foods about every 3 days or so. BUT... My dragons also eat a lot of the pellets which also gives them a good amount of protien. Combined with the protien in the T rex sups, I would say they get about what is recommended.

The 80/20 is for older dragons (adults) I would say after 18 months.

I have one female here that has "softer" stools than my others. I wouldn't say runny or watery.... just soft with a lot of liquid surrounding it. She has had two clean fecals and it just seems this is her way with her current diet. She is the one that is a chow hound on the pellets lol
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
LIVE hatchling web cam 8 - 8 EST
www.beginnersbasics.com

Actually that's exactly why I asked you. Because I was feeding Ocho the same way, all salads, with the occasionaly prey for a treat. It didn't work with him, but it works so well for you. I give him rep-cal pellets as well. So I just don't understand why it works for you and so many others, but not for my 2 lizards.
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

>> So I just don't understand why it works for you and so many others, but not for my 2 lizards.
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I don't know how to answer that. You have me stumped lol

Only thing I can think of is my dragons have been on this diet for many, many months. As I recall I did have a short time frame of "softer" stools when I first made the switch.

It may be a slight difference in husbandry, temps, type of greens offered, etc. I am not sure.

You did mention fruits in your previous posts...... mine get fruit as a very rare treat. I do know I get watery poops from my dragons after they have fruit of any kind LOL
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
LIVE hatchling web cam 8 - 8 EST
www.beginnersbasics.com

The only fruit he got on a semi regular basis was mango. It is one of the recommended staples on beautifuldragons.com, so I thought it was ok to include w/ his greens. The vet said to cut it out completely for the time being.

And when I talk about runny stool ( at least in Ocho's case), I mean green, undigested, stinky, leafy, nasty stuff! Not just a little soft and watery here and there! It was BAD. *shudder*
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

>>The only fruit he got on a semi regular basis was mango. It is one of the recommended staples on beautifuldragons.com, so I thought it was ok to include w/ his greens. The vet said to cut it out completely for the time being.
>>
>>And when I talk about runny stool ( at least in Ocho's case), I mean green, undigested, stinky, leafy, nasty stuff! Not just a little soft and watery here and there! It was BAD. *shudder*
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Mango is not a bad fruit

Could you email me? I am getting ready to go to bed, but will read it and get back to you first thing tomorrow. Include EVERYTHING... temps, set up, feeding times, etc.
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
LIVE hatchling web cam 8 - 8 EST
www.beginnersbasics.com

No problem. We've hijacked this thread enough anyways.

SORRY EVERYONE!!!
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

Eventually when he's 100% again I may try putting him back on the T-Rex and see if he gets lethargic again.
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It may have just been "bad timing" too. It might be that he was already starting to get sick before you introduced the T rex..... Never know

Good luck with him and I am hoping for a speedy recovery
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
LIVE hatchling web cam 8 - 8 EST
www.beginnersbasics.com

He was definately already sick when I started the T-Rex. He'd been sick about 2 weeks. But apparently after a while the giardia went away, yet he remained lethargic and with runny stool! That's when we had to start looking at other possabilities.
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

I have some 2 1/2 week old babies that have been raised (so far) on the T Rex VGF. They get salads dusted with the VGF and rep cal pellets twice a day and also silkies once a day.

They have already grown just over an inch in length and are measuring in at 5 - 5 1/2 inches at 2 1/2 weeks!

I have used the T rex dusts since late last year and noticed quite an increase in appetite with both adults and youngsters. Growth took off at amazing rates and even one female I had that was a "slow grower" has suddenly doubled her weight and gained 4" in length in only a couple months. Not only has she gained length and weight, but her girth has also expanded and she nolonger looks so "thin".
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
LIVE hatchling web cam 8 - 8 EST
www.beginnersbasics.com