Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Substrate...who uses what???

So far I've heard everything...and birdseed (without the sunflower seeds) sounds like the best bet.

What is your favorite substrate and why?

I want to know!
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
3.5.0 Corn Snakes
1.2.0 Tokay Geckos
2.2.0 California Kingsnakes
1.3.0 South Florida Kingsnakes
1.1.0 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snakes
2.5.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Mali Uromastyx

I use playsand covered partly with flat rocks.
Works fine for me.
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Hello from the Netherlands... this is my Uro-Website

Right now my uro is on newspaper. I had her on paper towels since I adopted her, and the other day I tried to use sand. She licked it a few times and then tried to eat it, so I took it out and went to newspapers, since she is an adult uro and the paper towels were getting shredded.

I think I am going to go out and get some millet this week and start using that. It seems like the best, easiest to maintain substrate out there that still has a natural look. It will still be a pain to clean, because you have to scoop out seed every time you clean up a uro mess, but as long as you get the feces and any substrate that was defecated on, it's fairly bacteria free. That's one of the things I have been thinking about. Substrates like sand and dirt basically absorb most of the moisture from the feces, which basically makes it a breeding ground for bacteria. So I think anyone that uses those substrates should probably change them every couple of monthes, or scoop out all of the surounding substrate whenever the uro poos on it.

Substrates are a tricky thing. The overall safest, and easiest to clean solutions are newspaper and other paper products that are thrown away when used, but those don't make for a nice looking uro cage. I think birdseed is probably a great substrate for uros if you keep it clean.

Ryan please do something about your substrate situation. Haven't you been listening to anything people have said here in this forum about good husbandry!!!

Paper is not appropriate substrate for a mature Uromastyx!! It does not promote the correct temperature and humidity gradients. Dirt or playsand substrates are more like the animals natural habitat.

Hurry Up and fix the problem before you do permanent damage!
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BigMac
1.0 Mali Uro - Tank
1.0 Leo - Doobie
0.1 Chacoan Monkey Frog - Pilar
1.0 Corn Snake - Muka
0.0.1 Ball Python - Monty

Actually, as far as natural substrates, sand is not the way to go. In the wild uromastyx try to stay away from sandy areas because it does not offer good footing (though, neither does birdseed). Also, paper does about as much good for temperature and humidity as sand does. Meaning, almost no humidity anywhere in the tank, and, well, I've never had trouble achieving a proper temperature gradient...not sure where you got that one from. I have tried sand, and it didn't work out, so I think that using paper until I get a more suitable substrate is a better choice than letter her ingest sand and possibly become impacted. As far as natural goes, dirt would be the way to go, but I don't have a tank that would allow me to put really any dirt, so I believe I'll be going with birdseed for now, and possibly a small rubbermaid box with dirt and an entrance hole.

Paper, though un natural and terribly ugly, will not cause problems with most reptiles. The problems with paper that may affect how a reptile lives and moves around is that they cannot get a secure footing on it, and they cannot burrow into it. This said, they also do not have a secure footing on sand or millet (it's like walking on the beach). That's why when I use paper as a substrate, and when I try out millet later this week, I make sure that there are very little places around the cage that offer just substrate for her to grip on. I put in some large and medium sized rocks around the cage, as well as a branch, the hidespot (going to add one or two more after my excursion at home depot), and of course the food dish, so the only places that are just plain newspaper are inside the hidespot, at the entrance of the hidespot, around the food dish (since that's where she goes to the bathroom), and a small patch on the hotside. I don't prefer this setup to others because uros typically like to have something to burrow into when they hide, and like I said, newspaper just looks awful. It has made keeping things clean a dream though.

I have read a lot on uromastyx. A LOT. But, mine had to be heavily monitored for a few monthes and i haven't been able to experiment with her setup yet, and I'm still trying to determine which substrate will work best. I don't want to use dirt if she's going to lick it constantly like she did with the sand, though I do still see it as an option when I get the larger cages.

A long post, but I've been bored and your post gave me something to type about I guess. Just to make it clear, I don't plan on always using newpaper, but it does not have a negative affect on reptiles (except a few specific ones I believe) if you don't just have huge open patches of it. It also makes it easier to monitor the droppings of your reptile. So I do think it has it's place in reptile husbandry, but for lizards it should be used sparingly.

Ryan you make some good points. I respect the efforts you are making for your animals and I am by no means questioning your husbandry skills. You are obviously very active in your pursuit of herpetology information.

The topic of substrate has me wondering what is best for Uros. I believe the best thing is what they have in their natural habitat and clearly so do you.

Peace
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BigMac
1.0 Mali Uro - Tank
1.0 Leo - Doobie
0.1 Chacoan Monkey Frog - Pilar
1.0 Corn Snake - Muka
0.0.1 Ball Python - Monty

Thanks. I was afraid the post would sound a little arrogant.

Basically, when I first adopted the uro, I thought that her husbandry needs were basically the same as my bearded dragon but with slightly higher temps and little to no insect matter. I contacted Robyn from pro exotics and he basically asurred me that they are two very different animals that require different care. He also pointed out in a way that I was sort of thinking about my needs more than the reptiles' needs, so I decided to do some research, and substrate is by far the hardest decision to make I think. You can go one of two ways:

1. Naturalistic. It looks nice, it makes the animals feel at home, but it's a pain in the a** to keep clean. Basically soil is the most naturalistic substrate, but I see two downsides to it. First, the vermiculite could cause some problems if an animal accidently ingests it, though Robyn located some very nice soil for pro exotics and he doesn't have to worry about the. Second, like I said, pain to keep clean. If you have a huge enclosure I wouldn't worry about it, but with what's considered "normal" sized enclosures, you'd have to do some pretty diligent work to keep bacteria from spreading through the tank from a couple of wet leavings.

2. "Sterile". Not exactly, but that's sort of a good way to think about it. Substrates that are easy to keep clean, like paper. But the downsides to these are a lack of natural stimulation and, as stated, lack of gripable surface. I would also consider millet to be in this category, even though you do need to do a little more to keep it clean. These substrates are also the ones deemed "safe" to use, where there is little to no chance of impaction.

Robyn has made great steps forward in the naturalistic sector of substrates, but I think maybe we should also try to step forward in the sterile substrates category. Millet is great, but I think if we tried we could find something even better. I know over at the bearded dragon forum they have been doing a lot to try to find the "perfect substrate", and for bearded dragons, a lot of the small time breeders over there think they have found it in "non adhesive rubber shelf liner". I have yet to try the stuff out, but it seems great. It easily wipes clean and you can switch sheets of it out once a week to clean them thouroughly. It also is grippy enough that the bearded dragons can get good traction on it, somewhat like walking on hard, packed soil of their native land, but a lot less messy. Because of their slightly more watery feces, this stuff probably wouldn't work well for uromastyx, but you get the idea.

There's a lot more research to be done on all this stuff, so I think I'll have a pretty busy summer this year. By the way, have you every used a "nest box" for your uros? Just basically a rubbermaid shoe box filled with soil and sand, with a flexy tube coming out the side for entrance? I'm thinking of trying one of these, but I haven't heard much about them.

I use washed play sand. It is inexpensive, easy to spot clean and is probably most similar to the uros natuaral habitat. Some say if too much is ingested sand can cause impaction but when you think about it, ingesting too much of any substrate can cause impaction. In my experience, I have never encountered this problem knock wood.

Rhonda

One thing I forgot to mention! If you're housing a juvenile uro my choice of substrate would be different. I do think that juv uros are more pron to impaction. I use news print or paper towel for juvies.

Rhonda

I currently use millet in both cages. I used to use playsand which is ok, but dusty. The millet isn't perfect, either, but I like it better than playsand. I also have a sleeping box with lightly damp soil and a tube running into it. They spend a lot of time in the tube just hanging out.

I highly recommend you look at Robyn@proexotics's many threads on his soil substrate. It's very intriguing. I don't currently have the resources to try it, but hope to in the future.
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Torey
Salem, Oregon, USA
1.1 Uromastyx Geyri (Joe and Arthur)
1.1 Uromastyx Maliensis (Tank and Turtle)
1.1 Anolis Carolinensis (Bowser and Leeloo)
1.1 African Dwarf Frogs (Bruce and Sheila)
1.0 Betta Splendens (Mr. Miagi)
1.0 Sunset Dwarf Gourami (Sideshow)
0.0.1 False Spotted Corydoras (Spot)
0.0.2 Metae Corydoras (Frank and Jesse)
0.0.2 Dwarf Sucking Oto (Tootsie and Dum-Dum)
1.1 Felis Domesticus (Roscolux and Jenny)

It can be controversal but I think that everyone has their own preferences. What we DO know is to NOT use cracked corn or walnut shells. They can not only cause major impaction, they can also get lodged and potentially cut them inside.

So with that, I alternate between the washed playsand and birdseed. Just depends on what i feel like that day! LOL The sand is much cheaper, but sometimes I like the seed because its easier to clean up when I'm changing it (throw it out to the birds kinda thing..whereas with sand, what the heck to do with it????)I also like the fact they can snack on it as well.

so that is my opinions....
Renee

I've heard aspen shavings work great for reptiles...odourless, non-dusty, easy to clean, dry substrate???

It's expensive though...but does anyone have anything to say about aspen??? I have a friend who uses it for snakes...(even though they are totally different animals I thought I'd throw that in)

So what's the deal with aspen???
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Chris Vanderwees
REPTILE SALES AND INFORMATION
E-mail Me
1.2.0 Bearded Dragons
1.1.0 Crested Geckos
1.2.0 Veiled Chameleons
3.5.0 Corn Snakes
1.2.0 Tokay Geckos
2.2.0 California Kingsnakes
1.3.0 South Florida Kingsnakes
1.1.0 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snakes
2.5.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
1.1.0 Mali Uromastyx

I've heard terrible things about impactions on aspen shavings. Might want to do some research on that though.

I to am on a quest to understanding the ecological needs of my uromastyx, IV been doing lots of digging lately, all species apparently need different habitat, first none seem to live in real desert (therefore I completely avoid an all sand substrata)
Aim still new at uromastyx and I really don’t think aim in a position to help much, but I think sharing my limited observation can be of some help in understanding more.
Until I know more I separated uromastyx in 2 groups, the thick heavy tails and the thinner tails, these are the only reliable physical traits that can be of help in determining there natural environment and there relation to water. Species like Mali’s and Moroccans have very thick tails (water reserve for uromastyx) they are considered very hardy by keepers. On the other hand Saharan’s and ornate have thin tails indicating limited water storage, therefore must have aces to water more often. From what I was able to read on natural history, the thinner tails live more on rocky outcrops and have better arboreal abilities using there tails as a fifth appendage, as opposed to Mali’s and Moroccans witch shows by there morphologies as adults a limited climbing ability and a tendency to borrowing, they are the most suited to a sandy existence, however sand can only be part of there environment, as theirs lots of drawbacks when living in sand, obviously they do have physical adaptations like ear scales and mouth scales that surly helps in keeping sand out, but from experience with other reptiles I know that it’s a matter of time before one gets an infected cloacae or hem pens from defecating and dragging his vent on this substrata, theirs no dough in my mind that in nature they have other ways to go about this.
Also from what I can see, rocky outcrops tens to retain atmospheric humidity quit well and lower crevice might be constantly humid, preventing dehydration and supplying drinking water, probably a reason why Saharans don’t do so well in our care?

Last but not least, all species seem to have a relation to clay as part of there environment, I think it has a very important role in uromastyx welfare, clay can be ingested in many ways, as water or mixed with sand even as small stones or simply taken strait from the source as parrots do, clay is very rich in a multitude of minerals its an anti acid and anti alkaline regulating the stomach acid and fighting diseases, its ironic that perhaps the most important aspect of captive care is totally missed.
In any case for the time being I choused too ad clay to my sand as seen on this photo, and also providing them with a choice of surfaces they can safely defecate and drag there vents on without risking damage or sand clinging to there organs.
Just sharing my views and idea

Rgds

A fantastic naturalistic environment you have there. I have a couple of questions though. Where did you get the clay? and where did you get all this great information?

Perhaps there's even more to explore with this soil thing than originally thought? Maybe different soil makeups will do better with different species? All stuff to think about. Right now I'm trying to find the perfect substrate for my situation right now, which means something that's readily available, fairly easy to clean (downside to soil and sand substrates is that bacteria will grow quickly once water excreted from the uro soaks into the substrate), and safe, since my uro seems to like to eat things in her environment.

I want more info on your setup though. I think we all probably do.

Thanks! This is my doters set up, aim presently designing some cages for other uromastyx groups including many species, my main interest is to achieve suitable specie specific habitat, something that who’d allow these animals to not only survive but also succeed and thrive. Its obvious that there needs aren’t fulfilled with present husbandry techniques, though many have succeeded in propagating a few species, I feel theirs much room for investigating other ways. I find uromastyx very exiting as a new project for me, perhaps the most interesting reason is that every one except PE seems to prone in only one direction husbandry wise, this leave the door open to many experiments and findings.

The information I provide is for all to see with a little research, we know that uromastyx have limited food resources, so the first? that comes to mind (how do they get essential nutrients?) after researching the only answer was sediments, there environments are rich in minerals left by a past history of rivers and flood lands that enriched the soils with minerals, these are still there available in many forms clay chalk sand slate and can be absorbed in many ways, its our job as herpetoculturist to find out how exactly they take it and how they are affected buy it.

As for parasites, that’s a problem that most keepers are afraid to flirt with, I don’t care about parasites, this entire planet life is based on parasitism, healthy organism aren’t affected by parasites, the question we should ask ourselves is witch is better a sterile environment or one that can sustain many life forms? My personal view on this! Sterility can only lead to death, lucky for our captives that the foods we provide them with aren’t sterile; you can see how reptiles rid themselves of parasites in one of my former post.

Perhaps the most important thing about my doters simple set up, is its ability to keep moisture, the bottom part is clay witch holds water well, this humidity is well distributed and the slated rock hold humidity on its underside, this makes for a naturally hide that’s simple and efficient. More testing is needed before I can say how good this works.

Also I too try to exploit what’s available in my immediate area, sand clay dirt logs stones whatever my animals may need, and options are the key to a better understanding of these animals. We may never fully understand there needs however sharing what we do know or think we do! Can only help.

Rgds

Ryan, you keep talking about bacteria problems with soil. what is that based on? experience? we have used this setup for years, with plenty of pooping animals, and never had a problem...
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I have two cages with soil substrate, and I find them easy to clean with a little whisk broom, just sweep the poops up!
I have two other cages with playsand substrate, and a new one with birdseed. I'm doing my own research!
Beth