Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am so heartbroken. I came home from the pet store with a fresh bag of crickets and walked in to a horrible sight. Baby Prince was laying on his back dead. I am still in shock. I thought he was doing so good. He was eating and pooping and active. I'm going nuts trying to figure out what I did wrong. I put him in a container in the freezer and am going to take him to my vet to see if he can do a necropsy. When I picked him up, he had a few red streaks on his ears that I never saw there when he was alive. His belly looked full, he had been eating good. I'm concerned about the fact that he was on his back. Does that mean he suffered to have flipped over like that? He had 3 water bowls which I cleaned any time I saw poop in them (he did poop in the water). There was no poop in any of the 3 bowls when I found him dead, so I don't think it was from being in soiled water. I changed all 3 bowls on Sunday night and I always put Reptisafe in his water. I forgot to do it in one of the bowls and meant to go back and add it and forgot. It was the bowl he liked least and I'm not sure if he went into it w/out the reptisafe or not. If so, could he have died from the chlorine? I also added some moss to his enclosure about a week ago. Live moss from outside. I thought it would look nice and prevent him eating his bed-a-beast when diving for crickets. Could the moss have been harmful to him? Or if he did eat the bed-a-beast would that have killed him? I'm just in a daze right now. I feel so horrible. I know it's something I did wrong and I feel horribly guilty. Do you think the vet will be able to figure out why he died? He was just a little guy, less than 2 inches not counting his legs. I handled him the day I got him for some pics and one other day for some pics, but other than that I did not hold him or take him out of his enclosure. Do the red lines on his ears indicate anything? I have another frog, a White's Tree frog. He seems healthy. I did not put moss in his tank. I try to remember the Reptisafe with all his water. I hope he'll be ok. Any suggestions would be welcome. I know it's my fault he died, so you won't hurt my feelings by telling me what I did wrong.

My poor Prince...

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www.LynsLair.com
Western New York Herpetological Society
0.1 Cat (Mia)
4.2 Ferrets (Wolf, Shadow, Verdell, Sullivan, Boo, Peach)
1.0 Carpet Python (Bear)
1.0 Malagasy Blonde Hognose (Wilbur)
1.0 Yellow / Everglades Ratsnake (Pumpkin)
0.0.1 Southern Water Snake (Ripley) coming soon!
1.0 Whites Tree Frog (Trevor)
1.0 Albino American Bullfrog (Prince)
1.0 AFT Gecko (Cocoa)
5.9 Leopard Geckos (Trouble, Scooter, Simba, Firenze, Teddy, Buttercup, Nala, Mystique, Jewel, Freckles, Dotty, Zipper, Princess Leo, Twister)

Sorry to hear about your loss....

As for the causes, I dont think it was the chlorine in the water. Frogs get into our pool all the time and dont die so i doubt the small amount of chlorine in the water could have killed him.
Also, I think that it would have taken longer for him to die from impaction. Perhaps the moss from outside had some strong pesticides or other chemicals in it.
Or maybe he just wasnt meant to be...
I wouldnt feel too bad though, It sounds like you know what you are doing and hopefully you can learn what went wrong.

Good luck in the future.
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4.0 - Fire-bellied Toads
0.0.1 - Ornate Horned (PacMan) Frog
0.0.2 - African Dwarf Frogs

I'm sorry your bullfrog died--he's sure cute.
Most likely your frog died of a parasitic disease of some sort.

The albino species is probably less resiliant than a common bullfrog (most likely) due to a lot of inbreeding. If this were the case it was just born weak.

But most likely it harbored parasites of some sort. They can go down fast and suddenly.

JadeFox

Unless a necropsy is performed on the animal the cause of death will have to remain pure speculation. Parasites do not normally cause sudden death in many animals unless they are a causative factor for a bacterial infection. Some bacterial infections such as aeromonad and pseudomonad infections (causative factors in redleg) can cause death in as short as 48 hours. Other possible causative agents are iridioviruses, fungal infections (such as chytrid, which has been isolated in a numeber of bullfrog farms), and impactions off the top of my head.

In general, it is counter productive for a parasite to kill the host as this will also kill the parasite. High parasite loads can cause other problems depending on the parasite. If the parasite is using the amphibian as an intermediate hose then, the encysted parasite can cause abscesses or bacterial infections as the parasite grows in the tissues (some multihost tapeworms cause this sort of problem).
There are of course exceptions to this rule, such as some flies that parasitize the nasal cavity of the frogs causing the frogs death when enough tissue has been consumed.

Ed

When it comes to frogs, you cannot tell it harbors parasites whether it be worms or bacteria because it will look, by all appearances, appetite, and behaviour, normal even though infected.

**Once symptoms are manifest, it is near terminal stage. And even then symptoms may not look significant, such as a frog yawning a lot....** Once it looks listless and lost its appetite, chances are it will be a gonner.

that's why I said "sudden death" perhaps I should have been more clear.

I would say nine chances out of ten, it died of a parasitical/bacterial disease.

JadeFox

That's why it is absolutely imperative--if you truly value your frog, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE get it vet checked and bring in fresh fecals for examination. Try to nip it in the bud before symptoms appear.

For sure something like a red eyed tree frog or an eyelash frog, for sure this is absolutely necessary! these can do down fast with parasites.

JadeFox

If a species seems to be more susceptiable to parasites then there is more likely to be some other underlying cause such as improper husbandry or some other stress factor. I have had red eyes that have had heavy nematode levels (when the twice yearly fecals were checked, and they lived to about 7 years of age) and did not see an increase in mortality in those frogs as compared to another enclosure that did not have a heavy parasite load so I am not sure where you are getting the idea that some species are more likely to die simply due to a parasite load. They may be more likely to die if there are other issues in conjunction with a heavy parasite load (when I am referring to parasites here I am not referring to myasis).
In addition in some species of omniverous and herbiverous herps some types of nematodes (such as pin worms) appear to be commensuals and assist in digesting the food as they break up the fiberous material.
Even if the frog is showing symptoms, rapid treatment with the aid of a vet can often save the animal in question.

Ed

Red eyed tree frogs have more stringent environmental conditions than most frogs, and there are different kinds of parasitical diseases.

Spring disease, for example, is oftentimes fatal, even with treatment.

Of all frogs, red eyed tree frogs tend to die more than other species. And it does have to do with the environment they are kept in.

most other frogs are more tolerant with variations. Pacman frogs, for example.

JadeFox

I lost a few frogs over the years even with vet care due to symptomatic parasitical infection. I would not say "often" save, but "sometimes" is more appropriate.

JadeFox

>Even if the frog is showing symptoms, rapid treatment with the >aid of a vet can often save the animal in question

Is there another term for "Spring Disease"? I cannot find any listings for this in any of the literature.

Given that I have worked with a collection of up to several hundred frogs (and occasionally well over depending upon recent reproductions)(and up to a total of over 500 amphibians in general) for over 12 years, and all deaths are necropsied, very few of the deaths were directly attributable to parasite infections. In each of the cases where it was attributable to a parasite infection, over 90% of these deaths were in freshly imported wild caught animals that were exposed to excess stress.
Red eye tree frogs can be easily maintained in fairly sterile enclosures within as wide a temperature range as any other lowland central american hylid. They are as hardy as many other hylids. One of the reasons redeyes have this reputation is due to poorly handled wild caught animals that have little to no fat reserves. These animals are heavily parasitized as well as stressed, and have little to no reserves to help them adapt to captive conditions and consequently frequently succomb to the various factors.

Ed

According to this wonderful website all about frogs, please go to:

http://allaboutfrogs.org/info/doctor/sick.html

I quote: "Spring Disease:
Caused by Bacterium ranicida, this lethal disease occurs in certain temperate species during breeding season. Symptoms include continuous yawning, lethargy and skin discoloration. Apparently, there isn't any reliable treatment for this disease, though experimentation with antibiotics may be worthwhile. Consult your vet."

And yes I agree a lot of red eyed tree frogs ARE wild captured, highly stressed (these are easily stressed creatures), and parasitized. It is far better to deal with captive born.

JadeFox

Okay you are aware that there is not a bacteria known by this name? This has all of the hallmarks of somebody latinizing a term they made up to make it sound more official. Bacterium is a generic term applied to multiple bacteria not a specific genus of bacteria.

There is also not a described disease by this term. I refer you to Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry by Wright and Whittaker, Krieger Press. (In fact I seriously recommend it to you if you are relying on sites like that for medical information).

There are multiple causative effects for high mortality in the amphibians that have just emerged from hibernation. Aeromonad and Pseudomonad infections, iridiovirus infections, and mycobacterial infections are a couple off of the top of my head.
Ed

I got the term off the website; further I seen this bacteria on other sites because I too never heard of spring disease. That frog website did not just make it up. I believe there is such a thing as spring disease.

And you have to remember with some exotic species you are going to get some diseases that one never heard of.

JadeFox

I looked on the search engine and the bacteria ranicida comes on on numerous websites.

You claim that it does not exist is highly invalid. I did some research which proves you wrong:

An example, among hundred of sites, is on

http://www.ourfood.com/General_bacteriology.html

I quote: "Historical classification of aeromonads:
Bacillus punctatum, in 1890 classified by Zimmermann: bacillus Gram-negative not sporulated, motile found in tap water.
Bacillus ranicida, classified by Ernst, isolated from frog with red leg disease."

Here is another one: This one I found on

http://www.meridianinstitute.com/eamt/files/burns1/bur1ch14.html

Authored by:
Studies in the Osteopathic Sciences
Basic Principles: Volume 1
Louisa Burns, M.S., D.O., D.Sc.O.
1907

"Ernst made a special study of bacillus ranicida, which causes a sickness among frogs. The disease is nearly always fatal in cool weather, but occasions very little discomfort in the summer. Ernst found that frogs kept in a temperature of 25 degrees C. were almost or quite immune to the bacilli, while those kept at a temperature of 6 degrees to 10 degrees C. were always filled by the disease. The optimum temperature of the bacillus is 22 degrees C., hence the immunity of the frog during the summer months is due to the increase of the frog’s bacteriolytic powers during the warm weather"

Interesting!

This indicates should one have a frog with excessive yawning, to keep the frog warm, as part of its treatment.

JadeFox

You have changed what was cited both by yourself and by the website from Bacterium to Bacillus there is a significant difference as I have previously stated. Bacterium is a generic name for bacteria not a specific genus. As I stated above there is no Bacterium ranicida as originally cited by yourself and then by your referenced website and is a fictitious species.

There was a Bacillus ranacida but this is very different than your cited Bacterium ranicida.

Also Bacillus ranacida was after Ernst's experiment determined to be synomous with Aeromonas hydrophilia. Bacillus ranacida is an invalid name for this species of bacteria. As a result, any symptoms caused by this should probably be classed under the heading of redleg (which is very curable if detected and treated aggressively see Wright and Whittaker and in my own personal experience). (please note it is ranacida not ranicida as listed on the website and your quote of the website).

Now you made a comment about spring disease and exotic species yet the web site you quoted cites it as being an issue with temperate species. Are you now saying that this is a disease of temperate species not found in the USA? As there is no official definition of this disease anywhere can you supply literature that supports your change to the pathology described by your cited author? IS anyone else aware that red leg does not occur with temperate species in the USA? Do you have any evidence to support this statement?
The symptoms cited under the misnomer of "spring disease" are also well within the range of symptoms for red leg.

It would be nice if you were consistant with the information that you are discussing as opposed to changing it with each new post.

It is very presumptous of you to question my credentials when you supply none of your own and yet continue to stick by erroneous information (Even more so when I reference the current authoratative work on amphibian medicine and you choose to ignore it). I'll give you this much. I have worked with amphibians both privately and as a ZooKeeper for a total of about 30 years. I have had a number of articles published in the following magazines, Reptiles, Reptile and Amphibian Hobbyist, and Reptilia. I have two articles/chapters in press in the Journal of the Art of Amphibian Husbandry (AAH), and possibly one in press in Reptiles (they had not fully commited when I last spoke to them). I have authored species accounts on caudata culture (link from caudata.org) and an information sheet on MBD in the FFAQ for frognet.org and have given talks the last two years for International Amphibian Day as well as for several local herp societies. Just so you can look for the articles my name is Edward Kowalski (hence EdK).
Do you need any further qualifications that will not compromise my privacy?

So what are your credentials?

Once again, I will recommend buying yourself a copy of Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry by Wright and Whittaker. The book is only $150 but it will help prevent the kind of erroneous information that you have sticking to as it is the current authorative work on this subject (and I worked for one of the authors for over 5 years).
You can continue to believe in "spring disease" if you want but that is your perogative. There are also people who believe that the earth is flat and that we never landed on the moon...

Any further negative comments?

Ed

I can say I've been published in this and that too...anybody can say anything. If this were so you should reveal the name of the articles, dates published, so that I may contact the magazine to collaborate, which I'm sure I can't.

You said there was no such thing as that bacteria. I merely looked up references where the bacteria existed, rather than getting huffy about it.

And I found references to "Spring disease" for frogs in various websites, which you claim did not exist.

So I think you are full of hot air.

Jade Fox

You can think what you like as I said above there are still people that believe the earth is flat and that man never landed on the moon.

Please the follwing carefully as I would not want you to miss any of the important points.

One of the problems with information of websites is that if there is no credible reference as to where the information originally came from it needs to be treated with a grain of salt. Information often gets placed on multiple sites despite being erroneous, outdated or unsubstantiated. (By the way you have provided a great example of the recycling of outdated and/or incorrect information. Consequently as you continue to choose to ignore it, I once again recommend Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry to you. You can order it directly from Krieger Press, ZooBook Sales or even Amazon.com. It will save you a lot of problems with misdiagnosis in the future).

I was not the person to get huffy. You decided to attack me personally when I questioned the information I knew to be wrong (to which you are still clinging).

Okay let us rehash this thread here, the problem started when you provided a definative diagnosis on the sudden death of a bullfrog. You stated with great authority that the cause of death was probably due to parasitic infections with no other possible causes of death listed as an option. When I pointed out the other potential multiple causes of death, with the statement that a necropsy was required to be sure of the cause of death you then amended your diagnosis to include the possibility of a bacterial infection while still ignoring the possibility of fungal, protozoal, viral or an impaction as other potential sudden causes of death. On to the subject of bacteria, your first reference citing the infectious agent of "spring disease" was BACTERIUM RANICIDA which does not/did not ever exist. So in the next attempt to prove your point you mentioned BACTERIA ranacida, which also does not exist. Finally you hit on BACILLUS ranacida which does not exist under this name anymore (an indication of outdated information) as it has since been discovered that this was actually A. hydrophilia. When this was pointed out to you and "spring disease" was pointed out to be most likely be red leg you have responded with several belief statements and continued to attack my credibility. (You also then stated that this was for exotic frogs and have not clarified my questions on spring disease and "exotic" frogs.) I provided a sample of my credentials and you obviously made no attempt to prove or disprove my credentials (depsite the references being available on the web. A google search of Kowalski, Reptiles would pull all of the Reptiles references up) but went on to continue to attack me personally. This is very often the refuge of the ignorant, who when challenged change the subject or attempt to misdirect the focus.

Despite your assertions to the contrary I have never claimed to be a vet nor have I (unlike you) provided definative diagnosis for problems. (You are aware that you are practicing medicine whenever you make one of your definative diagnosis (such as the previous it died from parasite....). Pretty odd behavior for someone who makes the claim to not be a "reptile expert" or to be a vet that you continue to supply medical information (often erroneous) and lots of information you defend as if you were an expert. Okay you are not an expert on Reptiles but since you did not mention amphibians does this mean you are an expert on amphibians?)(IN case you ignored it earlier, I once again recommend Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry and on second thought a copy of the Biology of Amphibians wouldn't hurt anything except a bunch of your preconcieved notions too much).

Here is a list of the "glorious" articles you requested (at least the ones I remembered off the top of my head). Don't forget I have been keeping/working with multiple species of anurans for almost 30 years. At work, I work/worked with many of the more common species as well as Atelopus zeteki and Bufo baxteri. You were the one that tried to say I didn't know what I was talking about here. I didn't bring up any of my credentials until you thought you could discredit my as shown by the title of one of your posts.
By the way you have still not supplied any credentials to uphold your position on any of these topics.

http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Siren/S_intermedia.shtml
http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Ambystoma/A_tigrinum.shtml (coauthored)
In press, Spindly Leg, Journal of the Art of Amphibian Husbandry (tentative publication date May 2004)
In Press, Amphibian Nutrition, Journal of the Art of Amphibian Husbandry (tentative publication date May 2004)
In Press, Gutloading, what is it really, Reptiles Magazine (Tentative publication date, June 2004)
"Refeeding Syndrome" - Terrapin Tales, June, 2002
Seal Salamander (Desmognathus monticola) Husbandry and Captive Maintenance, Reptiles v7.7 (7/99)
Captive Care and Maintenance of Slimy Salamanders, Reptiles v10.6 (6/02)
Keep Your Marbles, Reptiles, v9.6 (6/01)
Cynops ensicauda, The Japanese Swordtail Newt, Reptilia, No 29
Care and Maintenance in Captivity of Rio Cauca Caecilians Typhlonectes natans, Reptilia, No 17
MBD (written for the frognet.org FFAQ)http://www.tracyhicks.com/MBD.htm 2003
Speaker for IAD (International Amphibian Day) 2002, Caecilian husbandry
Speaker for International Amphibian Day 2004, Aquatic Amphibian Husbandry
Cycling an Aquarium for Aquatic Animals, 2001 http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/cyclingEDK.shtml
Temperatures for newly imported newts, 2001, http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/tempEDK.shtml
Bloat in newts (also applies to anurans and caecilians), 2001, http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/bloatEDK.shtml
Euthanasia for Amphibians, 2002, http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/euthanasia.shtml

Ed

Hey Ed, sorry I do not want to get wrapped up in this debate between Jadefox and you. But I just checked out all your online articles and read the one on MBD. I am really concerned about over or under suplementing my herps. I was wondering if I listed all of the ingredients in my dusting powders, would it be a pain for you to give me an estimate on how much I should be using? if it is then please disregard this question, but if you can do it off the top of your head it would be greatly appreciated.

Once again taking advantage of your informative and free advice . Thanks again,
Lisa
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0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
0.1 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Pacman Frog (Phatty)
1.0 Lovebird (Tony Montana)
1.0 Elkhound (Otto)
0.1 Malamute (Paris)
5.0 Bettas

Hi Lisa,
It might be better if you e-mail me off the forum. My e-mail link should work fine. This way we can discuss the various dusts without upsetting any manufacturers.
Ed

A lot of ranting over something bacillus/bacterium. I never claimed I was a reptile authority, and am not a vet like you appear to impress here, but have owned frogs for years and years.

I simply quoted (copied and clipped) some examples of websites where I found spring diseaes in frogs, which YOU claim does not exist!

And since you brought up your list of glorious magazine creditials, please list the name of the magazines you allegedly got published, the article titles, dates. I would like to examine them (a simple email to the magazine I can get these). ANd since you allegedly got them published, I fail to see how it compromises your privacy.

JadeFox

In case you missed the post above

You can think what you like as I said above there are still people that believe the earth is flat and that man never landed on the moon.

Please the following carefully as I would not want you to miss any of the important points.

One of the problems with information of websites is that if there is no credible reference as to where the information originally came from it needs to be treated with a grain of salt. Information often gets placed on multiple sites despite being erroneous, outdated or unsubstantiated. (By the way you have provided a great example of the recycling of outdated and/or incorrect information. Consequently as you continue to choose to ignore it, I once again recommend Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry to you. You can order it directly from Krieger Press, ZooBook Sales or even Amazon.com. It will save you a lot of problems with misdiagnosis in the future).

I was not the person to get huffy. You decided to attack me personally when I questioned the information I knew to be wrong (to which you are still clinging).

Okay let us rehash this thread here, the problem started when you provided a definative diagnosis on the sudden death of a bullfrog. You stated with great authority that the cause of death was probably due to parasitic infections with no other possible causes of death listed as an option. When I pointed out the other potential multiple causes of death, with the statement that a necropsy was required to be sure of the cause of death you then amended your diagnosis to include the possibility of a bacterial infection while still ignoring the possibility of fungal, protozoal, viral or an impaction as other potential sudden causes of death. On to the subject of bacteria, your first reference citing the infectious agent of "spring disease" was BACTERIUM RANICIDA which does not/did not ever exist. So in the next attempt to prove your point you mentioned BACTERIA ranacida, which also does not exist. Finally you hit on BACILLUS ranacida which does not exist under this name anymore (an indication of outdated information) as it has since been discovered that this was actually A. hydrophilia. When this was pointed out to you and "spring disease" was pointed out to be most likely be red leg you have responded with several belief statements and continued to attack my credibility. (You also then stated that this was for exotic frogs and have not clarified my questions on spring disease and "exotic" frogs.) I provided a sample of my credentials and you obviously made no attempt to prove or disprove my credentials (depsite the references being available on the web. A google search of Kowalski, Reptiles would pull all of the Reptiles references up) but went on to continue to attack me personally. This is very often the refuge of the ignorant, who when challenged change the subject or attempt to misdirect the focus.

Despite your assertions to the contrary I have never claimed to be a vet nor have I (unlike you) provided definative diagnosis for problems. (You are aware that you are practicing medicine whenever you make one of your definative diagnosis (such as the previous it died from parasite....). Pretty odd behavior for someone who makes the claim to not be a "reptile expert" or to be a vet that you continue to supply medical information (often erroneous) and lots of information you defend as if you were an expert. Okay you are not an expert on Reptiles but since you did not mention amphibians does this mean you are an expert on amphibians?)(IN case you ignored it earlier, I once again recommend Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry and on second thought a copy of the Biology of Amphibians wouldn't hurt anything except a bunch of your preconcieved notions too much).

Here is a list of the "glorious" articles you requested (at least the ones I remembered off the top of my head). Don't forget I have been keeping/working with multiple species of anurans for almost 30 years. At work, I work/worked with many of the more common species as well as Atelopus zeteki and Bufo baxteri. You were the one that tried to say I didn't know what I was talking about here. I didn't bring up any of my credentials until you thought you could discredit me as shown by the title of one of your posts.
By the way you have still not supplied any credentials to uphold your position on any of these topics.

http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Siren/S_intermedia.shtml
http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Ambystoma/A_tigrinum.shtml (coauthored)
In press, Spindly Leg, Journal of the Art of Amphibian Husbandry (tentative publication date May 2004)
In Press, Amphibian Nutrition, Journal of the Art of Amphibian Husbandry (tentative publication date May 2004)
In Press, Gutloading, what is it really, Reptiles Magazine (Tentative publication date, June 2004)
"Refeeding Syndrome" - Terrapin Tales, June, 2002
Seal Salamander (Desmognathus monticola) Husbandry and Captive Maintenance, Reptiles v7.7 (7/99)
Captive Care and Maintenance of Slimy Salamanders, Reptiles v10.6 (6/02)
Keep Your Marbles, Reptiles, v9.6 (6/01)
Cynops ensicauda, The Japanese Swordtail Newt, Reptilia, No 29
Care and Maintenance in Captivity of Rio Cauca Caecilians Typhlonectes natans, Reptilia, No 17
MBD (written for the frognet.org FFAQ)http://www.tracyhicks.com/MBD.htm 2003
Speaker for IAD (International Amphibian Day) 2002, Caecilian husbandry
Speaker for International Amphibian Day 2004, Aquatic Amphibian Husbandry
Cycling an Aquarium for Aquatic Animals, 2001 http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/cyclingEDK.shtml
Temperatures for newly imported newts, 2001, http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/tempEDK.shtml
Bloat in newts (also applies to anurans and caecilians), 2001, http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/bloatEDK.shtml
Euthanasia for Amphibians, 2002, http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/euthanasia.shtml

Ed

I can't get Prince to the vet until Saturday. Even then, the vet I'm seeing on Saturday for my ferrets Rabies shots isn't the reptile vet. Same clinic, but my reptile vet is off this Saturday so I'll just be leaving him there till my reptile vet gets there Monday. So it will be almost a week from the day he died (this Tuesday) till he can do the necropsy. Hoping that's not too long to wait but the vets is far away (all the closer vets only do dogs, cats and those kind of pets) and with my work schedule I just couldn't get out there this week.

If it's parasites, or worse if the vet cannot determine the cause of death, what do you suppose I do to make the tank safe for it's next inhabitant (nobody in mind right now). I'm going to throw away all the substrate. Should I bring a sample of the moss to my vets? Do you think he'd be able to determing from a sample if it had anything harmful in it? Probably can't hurt.

Would a 24 hour or more soak in bleach water get rid of whatever kind of parasites are common in frogs? Or whatever chemicals may have lingered in the moss?

I don't have a poop sample to bring in, his bowls/tank had just been cleaned and he didn't poop between the cleaning and the time he died.

I'll let you guys know what the vet says.

The pet store where I got him from had some Albino Bull Frog Tadpoles, don't know if they still have them. Sure is tempting. Scary after losing Prince, but still tempting. I know nothing about how to care for Tadpoles though so would have to do some research first. I'll find out on Saturday if they still have them. I'm stopping by the store after the vets.

-----
www.LynsLair.com
Western New York Herpetological Society
0.1 Cat (Mia)
4.2 Ferrets (Wolf, Shadow, Verdell, Sullivan, Boo, Peach)
1.0 Carpet Python (Bear)
1.0 Malagasy Blonde Hognose (Wilbur)
1.0 Yellow / Everglades Ratsnake (Pumpkin)
0.0.1 Southern Water Snake (Ripley) coming soon!
1.0 Whites Tree Frog (Trevor)
1.0 Albino American Bullfrog (Prince)
1.0 AFT Gecko (Cocoa)
5.9 Leopard Geckos (Trouble, Scooter, Simba, Firenze, Teddy, Buttercup, Nala, Mystique, Jewel, Freckles, Dotty, Zipper, Princess Leo, Twister)

I can almost guarantee it was the result of parasites. Because that's the most common cause of death.

Get rid of the substrate completely. Now if it were gravel, that can cause death by means of impaction.

Use strictly Bed-A-Beast.

You can use one part bleach to 20 parts water and let the tank enclosures soak in there about a half hour. Then rise out extremely well. Then let the tank completely air dry and remain completely dry for at least 24 hours. Bowels and plastic branches too can get this treatment.

For added safety, as long as it's not glass, you can pour boiling water onto the bowels and plastic branches.

I never use spagnum moss. Crickets hide and die in there. Very nasty. Bed-A-Beast is great so use only that

JadeFox

Thanks. I had no gravel. Some stones, but they were the same size as the frog or larger and they are all accounted for. I'm always worried when I bleach a food/water bowl that it may not get all the bleach out no matter how much I rinse it. I have a few that I've bleached and they are just sitting there, I'm afraid to use them. So his bowls will probably join my "just can't bring myself to use" pile after I bleach them. He had bed-a-beast type stuff. It came in a brick and had to be soaked, was ground coconut fiber I think. It was just a different name brand. The moss was live moss from outside, not sphagnum, that's why I wanted to take some to the vets to see if that could have had something bad in it. You said soak for only 1/2 hour. Would it hurt to do longer? Maybe overnight? Gotta run, time for work. I'll keep you posted.
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www.LynsLair.com
Western New York Herpetological Society
0.1 Cat (Mia)
4.2 Ferrets (Wolf, Shadow, Verdell, Sullivan, Boo, Peach)
1.0 Carpet Python (Bear)
1.0 Malagasy Blonde Hognose (Wilbur)
1.0 Yellow / Everglades Ratsnake (Pumpkin)
0.0.1 Southern Water Snake (Ripley) coming soon!
1.0 Whites Tree Frog (Trevor)
1.0 Albino American Bullfrog (Prince)
1.0 AFT Gecko (Cocoa)
5.9 Leopard Geckos (Trouble, Scooter, Simba, Firenze, Teddy, Buttercup, Nala, Mystique, Jewel, Freckles, Dotty, Zipper, Princess Leo, Twister)

Actually 10 minute soak is all that is needed. And as long as you rinsed the items *real* well, and let the items air dry completely (I would leave them outside in the sun for a day or two if not raining), there should be no trace of bleach as the chlorine degrades with utter dryness.

Then you can bring them inside and rinse again, then set up the tank.

What I do with the bowels, in addition to a good bleach soak and complete rinsing and air drying, is put to pour-and if possible let them soak until the water cools-in boiling water (which is out of the question for the tank for obvious reasons). Now there is *no way* any bacteria can survive all of that.

You may want to consider getting a plain ordinary bullfrog. Not only are they much cheaper in price, but completely satisfying, and most likely more hardy than an albino.

Albinos may be the result of numerous inbreedings by the pet trade. Who knows....because it's not a usual colour.

Most ordinary bullfrogs are wild captured, and despite they may be parasitized from being in the wild, they tend to be strong hardy frogs. Like toads are. and you can always treat them for parasites. The ordinary bullfrogs, at least, have a good genetic variety which promotes good health, rather than have recessive geneticsor other diseases from inbreeding.

My bullfrog is highly satisfying. He croaks everyday at very predictable times. And everyday he looks up at me with those cow eyes and begs for food. He's really very cute. I house him in a 100 gallon container.

I'm thinking of putting in swimming pool in there rather than a large water bowel. This way he can swim around. But I also realize it will be harder to clean. Cause I hve to change the water each and every day! He sure loves to poo in there and never poos in the bed-a-beast.

Jade Fox

JadeFox

The minimum recommended disinfection time is 15 minutes (please see the references cited below as well as Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry). In addition all organic material stuck to any of the items to be disinfected needs to be removed from the items before you can effectively disinfect the item. (The items stuck to the surface can shield bacteria or other pathnogenic organisms.

If you froze the frog then the vet will be unable to tell if there was a viral infection as the freezing will disrupt all of the cells. If the frog is refrigerated then the vet may be able to determine the cause of death if it is a very obvious cause. Otherwise degredation of the tissues may prevent an accurate diagnosis of the cause. (Amphibians decompose fairly quickly).
Contrary to what you are being told here in this forum, without a necropsy there is no guaranteed way to determine the cause of death. Parasites are unlikely to be the sole cause of death and death from these is usually linked to other factors.

Most of the bullfrogs in the pet trade are from farmed sources as this is unregulated source unlike wild bullfrogs as they are considered a game species in most states and take is regulated with permits and quotas. Tadpoles are collected as a byproduct of fishfarming and are considered farmed in most states.

If you want to ensure that all of the bleach has been removed all of the items can be rinsed/soaked in a commercial chlorine remover and then rinsed again and air dried.

Wright, K. M., 1994, Quarantine procedures for amphibians, The Vivarium 5(5): 32-33

Wright, K. M., 1993, Disinfection for the Herpetoculturist. The Vivarium 5(1): 31-33

Rossi, J., Rossi, J., 1994, General guidelines to reduce zoonotic disease potential associated with captive reptiles and amphibians. The Vivarium 5(96): 10-11

Ed

very sad ! I hope you find the reason!

Hi there:

Hey, I know you. My name is David Banchich. I'm that kid who comes to the meetings and brings green snakes and caecilians and stuff... I had the rosy boa and everything. I have met Prince in person, and let me tell you that he was an excellent frog. Your setup for him inspired the setup for my regular baby Bullfrog. Prince was excellent. I am not quite sure what killed him. Some of my animals have just died for unexplained reasons. I hope this does not prevent you from purchasing another bullfrog (I raise mine from the time they're tadpoles. I'd also like to ask you, did you buy him at pets plus? He may have been the same little albino Bullfrog that resided in the same vivarium that my two South American caecilians used too (I am planning to breed them now; they are very rare. I feel your pain. Stuff like that has happened to me too.

DAVE

Hi there;

The substrate that you used that came in the brick is a substrate I use no longer. It killed most of my green tree frogs. The colony is now set up again in a vivarium, thriving with new inhabitants, but I have found that it carries a very strong Ph level. The only thing I use it for nowadays is my giant millipedes. They seem to be the only ones that can tolerate it. Try using a Ph test kit. I am afraid you will be shocked at the results. But don't feel bad. I made the same mistake.

DAVE

Thanks for the comments. Yes, the Albino Bullfrog came from Pet's Plus, but I think we talked about that when I saw you on Saturday. Sorry I missed your reply when you first posted it. Didn't know about the PH levels on the brick stuff, that came from Markheims. I'm using it with my new Eyelash Frogs and have it in with my White's. I'll look into alternate substrates for them. I picked up a new Sand Boa from Markheims tonight. He's on my website if you want to see him. See ya round the forums and Kid's Club (which is done now for the summer, will resume in a few months).
-----
Lyns Lair
Frogwatch USA
WNY Herpetological Society

0.1 Cat (Mia)
4.2 Ferrets (Wolf, Shadow, Verdell, Sullivan, Boo, Peach)
1.0 Carpet Python (Bear)
1.0 Malagasy Blonde Hognose Snake (Wilbur)
1.0 Yellow / Everglades Rat Snake (Pumpkin)
1.0 Russian Sand Boa (not named yet)
1.0 Banded Water Snake (Ripley) coming soon!
1.0 Normal Corn Snake (Mystery) coming this summer
0.1 Motley Corn Snake (Autumn) coming this summer
1.0 Whites Tree Frog (Trevor)
2.0 Solomon Island Eyelash Frogs (not named yet)
1.0 AFT Gecko (Cocoa)
5.9 Leopard Geckos (Trouble, Scooter, Simba, Firenze, Teddy, Buttercup, Nala, Mystique, Jewel, Freckles, Dotty, Zipper, Princess Leo, Twister)

he sure was a looker, I have never seen an albino bullfrog before.