Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i saw in the black milks post that they do not require brumation. i was wondering if there are other milks that do not require brumation for mating. and if its ever possible to breed milks that require brumation without putting them through brumation?
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0.1 tangerine honduran 0.0.1 ball python 0.0.1 turtle 1.0 beta 0.1 rottie

>> i was wondering if there are other milks that do not require brumation for mating

people usually think only about temps and brumation; remember brumation is also a period of reduced light periodicity and reduced or eliminated food intake. so to the degree anyone worries about having to brumate their animals because they're not sure how to achieve the right temps, that process can still be partly achieved by turning off the lights and withholding or reducing food.

>>and if its ever possible to breed milks that require brumation without putting them through brumation?

if it's required, of course, then no you can't do without it, obviously, but i think what you're really wondering is whether any of the milks that are reputed to require brumation might in fact not require it. (the English teacher in me made me point that out.

I'll be watching too, to see what answers you get. interesting question.

terry

Personaly, I have always cooled all colubrids including milks for 3-4 months at 50-60 degrees F, reduced lighting, and no food.

Dave and Tracy Barker claim they have bred most colubrids including milks with the exception of the mandarin rat snake without cooling them. They DO reduce the light cycle and limit food intake for a period of time. If you go to their web site (VPI) and do an archive search in their q&a area you can find the exact info.

Tad Fitzgerald

>> >> i was wondering if there are other milks that do not require brumation for mating

>>people usually think only about temps and brumation; remember
>>brumation is also a period of reduced light periodicity and
>>reduced or eliminated food intake. so to the degree anyone
>>worries about having to brumate their animals because they're
>>not sure how to achieve the right temps, that process can still
>>be partly achieved by turning off the lights and withholding
>>or reducing food.

You're absolutely right; in that regard I was a bit hasty and sloppy with my terminology in my post about black milks. I should have specified that they don't need to be cooled (they're just naturally cool, hehe) but of course they can benefit from reduced light and food. I tend to take that for granted because I use only natural light for my gaigeae cages, and in the dead of winter, we only get about 7-8 hours of daylight up here in the frozen wastelands anyway.

Nate

Most snakes will breed without brumation. The things that brumation do are:

1. Trigger better sperm production in males
2. Trigger a stronger breeding response in males and females

As I said, most snakes will breed without brumation, but brumation makes for more consistent breeding and more consistent SUCCESSFUL breeding, and a higher percentage of fertile eggs on average per clutch.

Photoperiod is probably the most important part of the brumation process, but the change in temperatures helps to trigger the biological responses also.

For some snakes, brumation will serve as sort of a "system reset", too. I've had snakes that were problem feeders, I put them through brumation and when they woke up in the spring, they were voracious eaters.

Some snakes you do NOT want to brumate. One example is any Drymarchon. If you put something like a Cribo down for the winter like you would a kingsnake, you will find a dead snake in the spring.

In general, the snakes that you are most likely to succeed in breeding without brumation are the tropical species, such as tropical milk snakes. You do need to vary photoperiod, night drop and humidity to match the seasons where they come from.

I have limited experience with milk snakes, although I maintain a pair of young black milks. One king snake breeder that I've known (Dave Doherty) cooled his honduran milks every year and has generally achieved outstanding breeding successes. He maintained his animals at about 55F during brumation (pretty standard as far as I know).

Anyway, my point is that brumation in honduran milks (and likely black milks as well) achieves good breeding successes and is quite easy for the breeder to achieve. Seems to me that the breeder would love to have the opportunity to put his snakes away for 3 months during the year w/o having to feed them or otherwise deal with them too much.... why not just go ahead and cool them for breeding?

If you have no where to cool them then consider using a small refrigerator with a secondary thermostat for cooling snakes. I've heard of breeders doing this and it is something that I intend on doing in the future.