Reptile & Amphibian Forums

following up on the substrate thread below, i thought i would chime in with some updated info and pics.

very brief history...

we got days old hatchling Ornate Uros back the first of October 2003, and we set them up in groups of 5, in the same trough and soil setups that we use for other lizards, monitors, and Gilas. hatchlings on soil right from the start. typically about 2 ft deep. the babies started at 4-6 grams each...

we measured a female a couple of days ago, and she clocked in at 195 grams, must be about a foot long. that is 190 grams in 7 months, and she is well into breeding size.

we have seen a number of copulations in our groups, although i assume most courting and cops happen underground in the burrows, which is also very common with the Gilas. no eggs yet, but i am not exactly disappointed 7 months in

we have seen unbelievable growth, terrific health, zero combat or social compatibility problems, and basically, just a bunch of happy, well adjusted, socialized lizards. they dig a lot, eat a lot, and have never had shed problems.

a number of other forum members have ventured down the dirt road, so to speak, but from posts the last few months, you would hardly know it. i supppose, just like PE, everyone is quite busy with animals, and lacking much time to make updated posts. i know it has been tough for me to keep up with posting in the forum (i read it daily though) with different groups breeding and all.

i have said it before, and will say it again, once you try a good soil setup (not a bad soil setup, and not a lazy potting soil setup) you will never look back. paper, birdseed, and recycled dollar bills, they all make very poor substitutes, and are more about making a keeper happy, as opposed to making an animal happy.

impactions are a problem of ignorance and poor husbandry. "they can eat and pass doorknobs with the right setup".

humidity "problems" and tail rot are the same. it is plenty humid in our setups, and especially in the burrows. the Uros haven't so much as hiccupped.

either from a breeding standpoint, or that of just a single animal setup for enjoyment, i wouldn't do the setup any differently. maybe offer more visuals for a living room setup, but husbandry parameters would be the same

anyway, blah blah blah, some pics from yesterday...

(and Ryan, yes, i did get your novel of an email, but as always, it is in with 200 others, so i will get to it asap feel free to call instead )

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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

and no UVB either
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Hi Robyn,
What type of mixture are you using? I am trying to come up with a good soil substrate. I was worried about humidity but you are saying even with the humidity, you've had no problems. I was liking the idea of a top soil, sand, clay mix... What do you think about that?

Currently I have my uro on calci-sand.

Thanks,
Lisa
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Lisa

1 Mali Uro - Matilda
1 Leopard Tort - Herman
1 Shih Tzu - Jake

lisasmith@optonline.net
Monroe, NY

I have to say, they are looking quite nice. Something I just thought of. If you were to build a nice looking uro setup with that sort of substrate, is there anything specific you would do involving basking spots and other cage furniture? Just curious.

Where did you say you got that soil again? It looks just like the stuff I have been seeing when looking at pics of mali. As usual I'm still toying around with the setup and dreaming of getting bigger cages. I've been curious though about another aspect of dirt. How do you clean it? Like, when you spot clean, do you have to dig up a little of the soil surrounding the mess?

awesome uro and cage
some questions, i know other people are going to ask these questions so you dont have to post the answers to these questions in reply to my post.

what is the soil mixture that you are using?
do you know the moisture content?(take exactley 100 grams, bake it at 400 for 12 hours measure again, difference is percent moisture by weight?
what did you feed your uros?
did you use calcium dust?
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

i know this isn't going to be the format you like, but the answers have been laid out a number of times, and it is A LOT of typing, and that is why i put together the FAQ on Uro stuff at our site, i will link it directly below

while you are reading the FAQ, go ahead and read the rest of it, top to bottom, i guarantee you will walk away with more husbandry info than you came in with, or at least a good chuckle or two

i know a lot of dealer or breeder sites just list a caresheet (maybe) and a price list, but i have spent many many hours putting up actual, useful, applicable info at our site, please make the best use of it, and please understand if i don't have time to retype it for the 1003rd time

thanks for the interest and support
PE Uro forum discussion archives

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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Again I would like to warn everyone to follow that scheme with respect to power raising.
In nature Uros need 3-5 years to reach the size,Robins animals REACH IN A FEW MONTHS.
Such unnatural growth can never go along without metabolic abnormalities.
Expereinces with power raised turtles, Iguanas and other lizards make it very likely that the lifespan of such animals is dramtically reduced and that especially the risk of later liver and kidney failure is very high.
I know that Robin does not share this "opinion". But I still think the topic should be taken serious and I very much doubt that Robins animals do look as nice as today ten years from now.
So take care

Ingo

Dear Ingo I in no way want to be neither rude nor disrespectful, much to the contrary aim interested in learning, why who’d you think this! Robyn’s uromastyx where not grown with hormones, there fast growth is a direct effect of good husbandry, no dough faster then in nature! However they who’d grow as fast if nature was this kind to them.
I expect mine to do as well as PE and even better if possible, I am quit impressed by the works of many uromastyx breeders, however I see room for improvements new idea and techniques.
This is just my respectful opinion

Kind regards

There is sth like a ntural growth rate, which Uromastyx do experience since thenth of thousands of years.
In the wild, most species and specimens do not reach maturity before theri 4th or 5th year.
Since their habitats are sparse in food, they also have aquired the ability to boost growth if food happens to be plenty. That also is an adaptation to their natural habitat.
Any period of plentiful food is very short in their homerange.
So now you artifically prolonge such "ideal" conditions over their whole growth period.
So they make use of their potential and grow and grow like weeds.
But they are by no means adapted to do so.
And who are we to say with our limited experience with Uro that we are able to be "better than nature" with respect to an Uros needs?
Thats dangerous thinking and highly non scientific if you ask me!
From painful experiences with tortoises, Green Iguanas and lots of other lizards, we should have learned, that such power raising very easily results in metabolic defects, with liver and kidney weakness being the most likely outcome and MDB being a high risk upon only slightly suboptimal suplementation.
I strongly recommend to have a necropsy done on any of these "super" animals which will die -from any reason, even from accident. I beg a lot that a pathologist WILL find abnormalities in the liver, even in the healthiest looking specimen!
I have seen to many outcomes of permanently "optimal" conditions aka power raising to stop my comments on this topic.
If you just think I am a stupid idiot and my phD in Biology is not worth talking about and does not contribute to my competence on this topic, I would kindly ask you to contact Thomas Wilms.
As you may know, he has spent all his scientific CV on Uromastyx research and today is THE expert in this field.
You will find out, that he will tell you the same things I did.
Maybe THAT would make you think twice.
I don´t want to be too negative...but I am eager to see those power raised Uros in ten to fifteen years from now.
And I keep feeding MY Uro offspring amounts of food which allow them to reach maturity in their fourth year.

Thats my 2 cts and these forums are free
So I won´t stop.

Ci@o

Ingo

Ingo: I couldn't agree with you more...Although I don't have a huge amount of experience with uro's, I have kept various reptiles for more than 20 years now, bred some, and done an enormous amount of reading... I was fairly horrified to read that Robyn's uros have grown from hatchling to 1' in length in 7 months...

My guess is that the combination of high humidity, high temperatures, bright lighting and abundant food has mimicked Spring in their natural habitat, a time of fast growth...the difference is, Spring in nature lasts only a couple of months, then moves into dryer Summer, with less food and less humidity, and growth naturally slows...While we, as humans, may think endless Spring is a kindness to the animals, they are simply not genetically constructed to handle this kind of continuous fast growth and its attendant constant high metabolism..

It's also been shown that laboratory rats (okay, they're not uro's) have a significantly increased life span if they are actually underfed and kept slim and slightly hungry all the time...I'm not suggesting anyone starve their uros, but I strongly suggest that we try to raise them in the most natural way possible and in a way that supports their natural life style..

You can take a plant from the kind of hot, dry savannah/desert habitat that uros come from, put it in a greenhouse, and give it lots of warmth, high humdidity, long day length and lots of water and food; the results will be incredibly lush growth and early, out of season flowering...The results will also be a plant that ultimately collapses and rots because it's unable to sustain that type of habitat for long...Even if this plant is returned to its "natural" environment it will generally take two to three years to flower again because it's exhausted from the greenhouse treatment...(can you tell I'm also a gardener?)

Having said that, I am interested in Robyn's experiment (as long as we agree it's an experiment and not necessarily the "best" way to raise the animals) and appreciate his keeping us informed on how things are going...I am still open to being proved wrong, but at this point I will not follow his methods...

SR

what you're forgetting is that the higher humidity is really only achieved underground in Robyn's enclosures, and in the wild. A uro's burrow in the wild will go down past 4 feet. This probably differs between species, as some probably use rock crevaces more, but if given a chance, they will burrow dilligently. Anyways, once they go a certain distance underground in their natural habitat, they reach a point where the humidity is mostly constant through out the year. So, they have access to the higher humdity all of their lives, which is why wild uros don't need bathes (or blow dryers...I stayed up last night reading the uro faq thing on pro exotics website). So the higher humidity year round isn't really much of a factor, especially since the rainy season always replenishes the soil with water before the droughts hit.

As for temperature. No, they don't have the high temperatures all year round, but who's to say they won't benefit from them? Sure, uros are lizards (lizards lizards lizards, apply apply apply...and whatnot), but they are a different lizard that's fairly new to the hobby, and obviously since they aren't breeding well in "standard" lizard keeping conditions, they do differ in ways. Who's to say at this point in time that keeping them in a constant spring is going to harm them or not? Besides, you have to look at it from Robyn's point of view as well. He wants to get the reptiles reach full adult size and start breeding within the first year. He isn't doing it by power growing them, he's doing it by keeping them in spring time conditions. Think about it this way, once those beautiful ornates start making babies and they start selling them, the keeper can choose how they'll keep the reptile (for better or worse...probably worse).

there's a lot more to it than just "this will negetively affect them" or "this won't negatively affect them". The fact is that there haven't been many good studies done on the growth of uromastyx species, so how are we supposed to know what's normal and what's not? From the standpoint of someone that was originally a bearded dragon owner, I would be shocked if I got a baby uro that wasn't grown to at least half it's full adult size at 6 monthes of age. Of course, different species, but still, it's something to think about. Then again, some uromastyx species live A LOT longer than bearded dragons, so that probably ties in. It just doesn't really matter to me right now, since I'm not raising any babies. Right now I'm working on better setups for my adult reptiles. It's all VERY interesting to think about though.

just a few thoughts.

As for humidity, in his earlier post Robyn says "there is plenty of humidity in our setup, especially in the burrows", which leads me to believe the air humidity is probably higher than, say, a sand or birdseed substrate...

It's true there's very little research on uro growth rates, but there IS one study...check out Uronature.com, which is the only study I know of that tracks ornate uros in the wild (in this case,Israel)...this study indicates quite low humidity even inside the burrows and also warns against forcing fast growth in captivity...there is also a growth chart, showing average growth of ornates from hatching to sexual maturity under natural conditions...

SR

uros in the wild aren't feed every day or other day. It wouldn't surprise me if every now and then they went a week or more without feeding.
-----
0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

There is sth like a ntural growth rate, which Uromastyx do experience since thenth of thousands of years.
In the wild, most species and specimens do not reach maturity before theri 4th or 5th year.
Since their habitats are sparse in food, they also have aquired the ability to boost growth if food happens to be plenty. That also is an adaptation to their natural habitat.
Any period of plentiful food is very short in their homerange.
So now you artifically prolonge such "ideal" conditions over their whole growth period.
So they make use of their potential and grow and grow like weeds.
But they are by no means adapted to do so.
And who are we to say with our limited experience with Uro that we are able to be "better than nature" with respect to an Uros needs?
Thats dangerous thinking and highly non scientific if you ask me!
From painful experiences with tortoises, Green Iguanas and lots of other lizards, we should have learned, that such power raising very easily results in metabolic defects, with liver and kidney weakness being the most likely outcome and MDB being a high risk upon only slightly suboptimal suplementation.
I strongly recommend to have a necropsy done on any of these "super" animals which will die -from any reason, even from accident. I beg a lot that a pathologist WILL find abnormalities in the liver, even in the healthiest looking specimen!
I have seen to many outcomes of permanently "optimal" conditions aka power raising to stop my comments on this topic.
If you just think I am a stupid idiot and my phD in Biology is not worth talking about and does not contribute to my competence on this topic, I would kindly ask you to contact Thomas Wilms.
As you may know, he has spent all his scientific CV on Uromastyx research and today is THE expert in this field.
You will find out, that he will tell you the same things I did.
Maybe THAT would make you think twice.
I don´t want to be too negative...but I am eager to see those power raised Uros in ten to fifteen years from now.
And I keep feeding MY Uro offspring amounts of food which allow them to reach maturity in their fourth year.

Thats my 2 cts and these forums are free
So I won´t stop.

Ci@o

Ingo

Ingo:

Could you tell me how to get hold of some of Thomas Wilm's articles or papers? Are any of them in English? If not, I have a sister who's fairly fluent in German and might be able to translate for me...Thanks...

SR

i know that in the long run something is gonna pop up, how in the world would they reach that in 7 months , thats never been heard of , its true hes probably mimicing spring on a lifetime basis for them, this is crazy, its been documented and i've read from people who actually went out and researched them in the wild and it says they take like 3 years or something to become full grown 7 months is crazy, its almost like using steroids without using them, well just my opinion

or a you just unfamiliar with what folks are doing nowadays?

we regularly get Water Monitors and Blackthroat Monitors over 4 ft in a single year....

and so do hundreds of other keepers! lizards have a much higher metabolism than snakes do, i don't know of ANY monitor species that you can't get to a mature breeding size in a single year (if you are a skilled and knowledgeable keeper that is...some krappy keepers have Water monitors that are under 2 ft after 3 years).

these Uros are not full grown, nor are they fully mature. they will be more so a year from now, but at 7 months, they have great growth, and have started "kissing in the stairwell of the high school"...
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Somehow I begin to dilsike discussions with you, Robin.
Monitors are carnivores.
And you should know that throughout the animnal kingdom there is a large difference in metabolic flexibility between carnivores and herbivores.
Also water monitors in the wild easily DO reach 3 ft and sometimes 4 ft in their first year, wehreas Uros do NEVER reach the sizes you mention.
(Still I doubt that your Monitors will reach normal lifespan...but since most captive specimens of larger monitors do not live long (sorry, often ignored but true), the differencé will not be of importance for many of your customers)
Anyhow, Monitors are NOT Uros as apples are not tomatoes.
You will hardly find bigger differences in herptile metabolism than between Monitors and Uros!
You should really know, that you are doing experiments when you raise Uros the way you do.
More, those experiments are everything but under scientific control and you are ignoring everything from control groups to histological, serological and pathological analysis of affected individuals.
After 15 years of well documented Uro husbandry following your method, you may go public and recommend your positive experience to other keepers.
But I blame you a lot for dong it NOW and I dare to predict that the outcome will be that power growth IS detrimental.
The sad thing is that I very much appreciate your opinion with about natural substrate and dirt.
But I am shocked about the way you propagate spurious husbandry information.
If you are really interested in existing knowledge about Uromastyx, you should contact Thomas Wilms. I absolutely do not understand, why you so far did not ask him for his opinion.
There is scientific research coupled with outstanding breeding experience for Uros available. And this is combined in one person, who surely is willng to share it with you.
But you prefer to try completely new and potentially harmful things with your Uros without ever asking the experts.
Sorry, I can´t subscribe to that procedere.

Ci@o

Ingo

After sitting back watching the ‘dirt road’ unfold for the last several months, I must voice my opinion on the subject which just happens to be in support of Ingos comments.

Jobi, I also respect your comments but I must add that although the increased growth rate is not being accomplished with hormones, it is taking place. Part of the reason ‘may’ include the substrate combination which does not seem to exist (exactly) in this animal’s natural habitat. Don’t overlook Ingo’s point- a growth rate well above that of nature is taking place and this could have health implications that may not be readily apparent.

When uromastyx were first imported and data was being accumulated, two main factors continued to surface- the growth rate of uromastyx in captivity was much greater than that in nature and the lifespan was thought to be significantly lower in captivity. Not one of us out here would believe that importation conditions, lack of knowledge of these reptiles, and improper husbandry practices did not and does not continue to play a huge role in the supposedly shortened lifespan. On the other hand, one also needs to wonder if the excessive growth rate does not play an important role also.

Pro Exotics appears to be claiming that their pioneering substrate combination seems to be one of the major factors for an exceedingly fast growth rate (compared to nature) in the group of ornates that they purchased six months ago. It also seems that this unnatural excessive growth rate is looked upon as being very favorable by Pro Exotics and others on this forum

My concern with this is NOT that Pro Exotics is attempting something new, my major concern is how it is being done, how the results are being interpreted, and the excessive growth rate we keep hearing so much about.

As far as I can tell (and I could be wrong), Pro Exotics has had six months of experience (many more with other reptiles) handling and keeping uromastyx. During this time they have decided to experiment with a soil combination that has not been commonly used with uromastyx. Rather than using a tightly regulated and organized study with control groups to verify short term and long term effects, they have decided to promote their limited experience with this experiment and their interpretation of the results. Pro Exotics is suggesting and recommending after a few short months into this project that others jump on the newly built dirt road- so to speak.

While I am not convinced that the substrate is playing a major (or any) factor in the growth rate of Pro Exotic’s ornates, it is something that I feel is important enough to be studied and documented in an organized setting which to me, would mean using control groups for accurate comparison of results.

As a breeder and pioneer of something new, I hold Pro Exotics to a higher level of responsibility and would expect that they do the necessary research, documentation, and unbiased comparisons over a length of time that will give reliable and accurate results prior to drawing conclusions and promoting this practice to others as a safe method.

Who is to say that a similar group of 5 ornates in the same size trough with sand would not have the same growth rate if provided the exact same temperatures and diet? Who is to say that 5 Geryi would not have crashed and burn with the same dirt setup? What if a short term study with control groups showed that the substrate itself was not a significant factor in the growth rate but those on the substrate showed a 40% increase of carbuncles and bacterial dermatitis directly related to the dirt combination and moisture level? What if a long term study revealed that the mortality rate of those with an excessively fast growth rate (even if not resulting from the substrate) was 60% higher due to cardiomyopathy than those with a growth rate that closer mimicked that in nature?

I took a look at the recent photos by PE and could not help but notice that a fair portion of the diet contained corn, lima beans, and carrots. Most of these foods are much higher in carbohydrates (one mainly sugar) and protein than what I feed my ornates. One of my ornates was experiencing a tremendous growth rate (shedding every two weeks) by pigging out on fresh greens and a pea/lentil mixture that I sparingly feed every 7-10 days. I removed the pea/lentil mixture from her diet and limited the amount of greens that I feed as I felt the excessively quick growth rate was not something that would have occurred in nature and could possibly be detrimental to the health of the uro. If I were to feed corn, lima beans, and carrots, I am sure that my ornate would grow much, much faster even without using dirt substrate. Keep in mind that our uromastyx eat what we decide to provide for them both in quality and quantity. My goal nor my intent is to achieve a growth rate well above that which would occur in nature.

It seems almost ironic to me that I am concerned about my ornate growing too quickly and too large while others are trying to ‘achieve’ the same results. I guess here in American we always seems to have that ‘ bigger the better’ mentality. If you don’t believe me, take a look at our obesity and mortality rate due to cardiac illness.

Am I saying that Pro Exotics should not be trying something new? Absolutely not. I believe that ‘thinking outside the box’ is one of the things that will lead to successful captive husbandry practices for uromastyx. Do I personally think that the dirt/moisture combination will lead to devastating irreversible health conditions in uromastyx, probably not but I cannot say with certainty. Do I think that an excessively fast growth rate or raising our uromastyx to be as large as possible will have adverse health implications- yes I do. I base my conclusion on what I see in nature, my understanding of health/medical issues, and what I see around me. Take a look at the life expectancy of a large breed dog compared to that of a smaller breed. Larger is not necessarily healthier nor is an exceedingly fast growth rate necessarily healthy for a uromastyx.

If the data from a long term controlled experiment with the dirt/moisture combination supports health benefits rather than drawbacks, this would certainly be beneficial to the hobby. Not jumping on the dirt road before results are in on the possible drawbacks is not something that will kill our uromastyx while we wait for the accurate data and results.
However, if the data and results from controlled studies show adverse health issues from either the dirt/moisture substrate or excessive growth rates, I personally would not want to be responsible for the hundreds of uromastyx that acquired these health issues due to my decision to experiment with something new and promoting it to others after only 3 or 6 months of interpretation based on very limited results and data.

Just one little opinion on the subject……..

.

Yes, a very well thought out informative post.

I agree that the explosive growth rates should be looked at with
caution since they are only known in captivity. We really don't know what is causing growth that fast since there are no control groups. Is it the food, temperature, substrate, or lack of brumation?

Don't get me wrong I am very intersted in diggable substrates and think they are probably a very good tool in the husbandry of these animals and will probably be an excellent choice once all the kinks are worked out but we need to seperate the use of diggable substrates from the fast growth and treat them seperately.

Another thing to think about when reading these threads is that there is a difference between what works for a breeder and what works for for the average person keeping just a couple of reptiles. While an accelerated growth rate and early breeding is a very good thing for a breeder, a healthy and long life is a good thing for your average pet owner.

Not saying that either method is wrong, the goals are just different. Not to start another controversial topic but I see the same thing with the attitude towards UVB, breeders tend to lean towards using d3 as a supplement rather than use expensive UVB bulbs. I surely don't mind buying 4 or 5 MV bulbs a year at $40-$50 but if I had to buy a couple of hundred a year I would probably be using D3 instead.

Those of us on the side of caution may end up being totally wrong and fast growth may not end up being a major heatlh issue, but in my opinion it is still way to early to tell.

That is why I think I could do a lot worse than try and keep growth levels to around what is found in nature. That is also why I once I have convinced myself in a test setup that I can keep humidity to reasonable levels I will try a diggable substrate. I have a guess that when I change the substrate but nothing else in my husbandry I will not see a greatly increased growth rate but will probably have a happier uro (which is my main goal),

--
Mike Wilson

That’s a very good and enjoyable post Thanks

However it seems to me that both you and Ingo are misinterpreting the fast growth syndrome. Let me try to clear it out!

First its not about the substrata or what’s in it, its simply about allowing uromastyx to preserve energy they who’d burn under most caging system, every time we see our uromastyx panting they expel water in the form of respiratory carbon dioxide, we think little of this as they are arid species and love to bask, however on a day to day basis this simple process uses much of there stored energy, its only normal that before this uromastyx can use energy to grow it must replenish its reserves, a uromastyx that is allowed to retain moisture in its borrow if and when he chouses will simply not burn as much as one kept in dryer cages, therefore will use its reserves in growth or egg production. But you already know this!

Now I ask what shod be considered normal growth?

Snakes lizards and crocodilians of many species have been raised to maturity in a year time (18months crocodilians) without any liver or other internal damages and still produced 10-15 years latter, I agree they aren’t herbivores, but is it really important?

These are facts not unfunded suppositions, my first encounter with fast growth was in a gator farm in 81-82 they where growing gators to 6 feet in les then one year, it took a few years to adjust diets to avoid any deficiency, but from then on only healthy fast growing gators where produced. IV sins applied this husbandry to every herp species IV kept with excellent results. You must understand this is why aim very open to Robyn approach and ideas, you say it’s a shame that he talks about this considering he’s limited experience with uromastyx, personally I appreciate the fact that he’s sharing with all of us, he doesn’t have to! He could keep this as a trade secret but no he shares, I really can’t see his gain here. I also think it that’d be shameful to disregard anyone exposing new ideas because they don’t fit our standards. I for one was hopping to share my future experiences with you, many aim sure will be different then yours.

Kind regards

they're pissed because if u have a different view or say something thats not in accordance to what hes saying he calls u ignorant, basically its like hes right your wrong and your ignorant for not thinking he's completely right and for voicing your opinion that doesn't go with what he says

when i use the term "ignorant" it is in the context of "lacking knowledge". it is not like i am calling you a bonehead (at this point i wouldn't mind though)...

YOU ARE USING THE TERM personally, and that is different.

but i don't expect you to understand, as you have missed every other point as well.

keep your Uro on newspaper, and be happy about it. whatever.

recess is over, go back to class.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

you will be assimilated by the Borg! ok, that is about the extent of my sci-fi humor

ingo, i don't think you are ever going to believe a thing we do, so i don't worry about that. but for the rest...

we didn't get into Uros for some science experiment. we saw a forum of keepers setting up Uros the same "snake-like" way that monitor keepers kept monitors 10 and 15 years ago. the lizard "revolution" has passed you folks by! our husbandry is not really unique, it simply reflects the current "state of the art" in lizard husbandry (give or take a few small personal details). i think it is much more a case of Uro keepers (and Bearded keepers) not being aware of what other lizard breeders are achieving around the world...

when i read this forum in the past, i saw the exact same problems, with all aspects of husbandry, health, growth, and breeding, that we saw with monitors so many years ago. from experience, it is so easily traced to deficient husbandry that we thought we would get a group of Uros and do something about it.

why be so afraid of a robust, beautiful, healthy Uro? if they are so sick, or will be so sick, where are the symptoms, and what is THAT theory based on?!?!?

looking at Uro setups, pictures of thin, sickly animals, and lack of successful, widespread breeding, you would think that you Miss Doubtfires would rally around THAT standard and try to bring it down! why not find a better way to keep your Uros, rather than pull down at some beautiful, healthy animals?

when we started this project, we knew our goals, and we knew the different steps involved in obtaining them. we knew the inherent drawbacks, and we are plenty familiar with the negative signs of an unhealthy animal. we have seen NO UNHEALTHY signs from our Uro groups. not at all.

we have four groups, and some have indeed grown faster than others, to a point...

groups of five in a four ft trough grew much slower than groups of five in a 10 foot trough. once we moved them into a larger cage, BOOM, they start catching up to the others, quickly. i would certainly say that space is a significant issue for these animals, and while a single animal, or perhaps a pair, may do well in a 4 ft cage, the more space the merrier, and we have seen the best results with the groups in the larger cages.

READ YOUR ANIMALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if you would stop by and read ours, you would certainly think on the positive side of the tracks, as they communicate very well, and they have "said" nothing but great things to us, they seem to be monumentally happy.

all this "fast growth will equal fast death and serious problems", what is that based on? your own experience keeping and BREEDING lizards over a 10 or 15 year period? or some goofy speculation over the unfamiliar?

monitor breeders have been dealing with this same argument for a long time. we still get it from newbies, neophytes, and ignorants (lacking knowledge). yet monitor groups have been raised and bred in a single year, multi clutched 5 and 6 times in a year, and done it successively for the next 10 YEARS!!!!! and you still have healthy animals and groups!

you are talking about many many generations of lizards breeding like crazy, maturing quickly, and living long "happy" lives. animals that are healthy at 15 and 20 years old!

it isn't about some secret trick or dirt recipe. it is about maximizing the conditions of their environment, giving them all the tools they need, and letting them do their thing.

no one is forcing husbandry on the animals, they make their own choices. your ignorant assumption that a soil setup is "too humid" is just that, ignorant and unfamiliar (for those that seem to have the "mud pit" idea stuck in their heads). in our setups, they have access to a complete range of temperatures, and they have access to a complete range of humidity. they make their own decisions. and from years of lizard experience, watching them make those choices, the temps they actually use, the humidity they seek, there are no surprises, for me.

the Uros are following the same pattern (a proven, healthy, and successful pattern) that other species have followed when this approach is applied. at the 7 month mark, we still have a long way to go, but it has been just as i expected those 7 months ago (give and take a few minor details). that doesn't make me a psychic genius, or even a spectacular reptile keeper, as there are LOTS of folks making these same steps, seeing these same results, they are just not in your world of Uros. that is why i suggested long ago to hang out and read the monitor forums at kingsnake and varanus.net, among others. see what folks are REALLY doing...

snake breeders are also getting hip to the choices, tools, and ideal husbandry theories, that is why more and more folks are skipping the "wintering" aspect of the cycle. you can breed boas and pythons terrifically without a wintering cycle. and if you have enough intuitive skills (to know your follicular cycles and windows of opportunity) you can breed just about any snake without the "winter".

you are simply taking away one of the biggest obstacles to the health of a wild lizard, the long, cold, lack of food and energy having winter. you are taking them from Wisconsin, and moving them to Florida, so to speak. they can eat, breed, and excercise all year round. and sunbathe nude if they want to...

the internet has opened up the lines of communications between breeders and hobbyists. specialized species communities like this one help to spread new ideas and standards between keepers. that has allowed for HUGE jumps in husbandry, theory, and success, whether it be pet keeping or breeding.

but when you really look at it, we are ALL brand new at this, no one has "mastered" reptile husbandry, but we have really made some great strides in the last 10 or 15 years. but that is still just a blink of the eye.

our methods are not "PE" methods, number one

and our methods are not the end-all-to-be-all either. i am confident that great keepers will continue to make great strides in the accepted standards of reptile husbandry. it will continue to change the hobby.

in fifteen years, i think folks will look back and laugh. laugh at millet substrates, bird seed setups, scrawny animals, 20 grams of growth per year, bad nesting, weak clutches, and poor hatch rates.

when you look at the Uro for WHAT IT IS, a burrowing, dirt loving, hot climate lizard, how can you NOT at least try and provide the tools it needs to survive?

it isn't funny, AT ALL, to see a Uro "dig" hopelessly in an inch of bird seed or playsand, stressing its little heart out, TRYING to dig a recognizable burrow/retreat, to absolutely no avail (and coos of "oh, that is soooooo sweet!".

it isn't cute to see them "glass dancing" either.

i wouldn't keep a dog in a 200 gallon fish tank full of water, and i wouldn't keep fish in a cat litterbox, full of cat litter.

and i wouldn't keep Uromastyx on a poor substrate like paper or seed. well, i would have 10 years ago, but not anymore

best of luck to everyone and their animals!
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Yeah, you're probably right, resistance IS futile...we'll never convince each other...But I just HAD to ask this:

Why do you think most other people's uros are "sickly" and "scrawny"? The only problems I've seen with people's uros on this forum has come from stressed out recent imports or half dead pet store animals...The majority of the photos I see posted of CB or LTC uros show plump, healthy animals, and I see many posts indicating courting behavior and actual gravidity (is that a word?)

My own two juvenile ornates are every bit as fat and healthy looking as yours, just smaller (and within "normal" range)...they too eat, bask, interact and run around their sand and rock bedded tank...I see no evidence of "glass dancing" or "pathetic" digging attempts...Take a look at the many photos posted on this forum and tell me where you see misterable scrawny looking animals...

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree for now...but I hope you'll keep us posted on how things go...

SR

Again your mixing up things.
I do fully subscribe to natural substrates and big tanks.
And I do post this sinc ethe xistence of the internet.
Burt you, Robin are constantly mixing up things. Taking long experience in one fuield as an excuse for doing strange things in another and and and.
As A scientist, thatz way of discussing things horrifies and confuses me.
I am tired of repeating things again and again.
You are always claiming your experience.
Well, here is mine:
I am a herper since more than 30 years. I have alsways concentrated on lizards (senso sauria) keeping and breeding.
I have bred many many lizard species from various families.
Some species I do regularily breed since 20 years, some since 3, 4 or 5 generations.
I am a biologist by training and as a nuclear ereceptor specialist my day to day work has a lot to do with metabiolic regulation and abnormalities.
Well, my Job is not lizards, but it gave me the skills to read scientific papers ON lizards and to find teh information which is spread out there.
My scientific CV also told me how to set up experiments.
And beleive me, what you are doing may be filled with enthusiasm and joy.
But its far from being scientific-TOO far from to be appleid to living animals IMHO.
You are capable of charismatic speech (so you hav an advantage over me, since english is not my language) and there are meany newbies and beginenrs in this forum.
So its easy for your to attract these people and make them follow your advises.
But considering your background in Uromastyx husbandry, I think its highly irresponsible to recommend your way of keeping as THE ultimate solution to all these people whio are just not experienced enough to evaluate the pros and cons.
Ci@o

Ingo

I have a question though. If you were to set up an experiment like Robyn's, how would you do it? The dirt seems like a good idea, though the heightened humidity, risk of impaction, and just plain dirtiness of it is what is keeping me from using it right now. By dirtiness, I mean the fact that the animals are obviously going to get dirty from it, but my enclosures are minimum sizes, and my reptiles do enjoy coming out to run around, and I think being really dirty might hinder that ability (since my room is carpetted). Also, whenever impaction comes up, I noticed that Robyn commonly makes the comparison that "a monitor could pass a doorknob if it had enough heat". But, uros are not monitors, and their digestive systems are much smaller. I know that using particulite substrates in the past have cost the lives of many bearded dragons, which have comparatively sized inner organs. I think that so far what Robyn has been experiencing is luck. No amount of heat is going to allow a lizard to pass something that is too large, and sandy substrates tend to line their intestines causing more than just impaction problems.

I think the good thing right now would be to just wade through the ideas. If you see something their doing that is obviously a good idea, use it, but I think right now Robyn is sort of forcing husbandry ideas on us that make some of us uncomfortable. No offense. Robyn is a great guy and everything, but I think spreading all of this information as simple fact right now is not the best idea. He should have waited at least until the uros start breeding and the elders have blood work done to determine that there aren't signs of kidney failure or anything.

But that brings you back to the knowledgable keeper thing. If you don't like Robyn's ideas or you don't think they'll work, don't use them. I think the way I'm going about it right now is fine for my setups. I've got some dirt mixed in the basement that I'm trying out a little. So far I'm not too happy with it, but maybe trying a few different mixes will help, but in the end, it's my uro, and I can choose which husbandry info to accept and which to reject. At least until the husbandry methods Robyn uses turn from theory to fact.

But I do think that most of the THEORY is good. I'm a little skeptical of the quick growth, but the rest of the things he seems to be doing are good for the lizards. It seems like a good recomendation when trying out the soil mix would be to try to keep the humidity fairly low on top. Just because Robyn hasn't had respiratory infections in his uros, doesn't mean it can't happen The main thing is that you have to keep the temps up.

"we have seen unbelievable growth, terrific health, zero combat or social compatibility problems, and basically, just a bunch of happy, well adjusted, socialized lizards. they dig a lot, eat a lot, and have never had shed problems."

there is a LOT of significant information in that piece right there! (from my original picture post)

i think that may say more than all the rest of my stuff in this entire thread
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Robyn writes:

"we have seen unbelievable growth, terrific health, zero combat or social compatibility problems, and basically, just a bunch of happy, well adjusted, socialized lizards. they dig a lot, eat a lot, and have never had shed problems."

there is a LOT of significant information in that piece right there! (from my original picture post)
i think that may say more than all the rest of my stuff in this entire thread

Robyn,

Here is another quote which was taken from Mader’s Reptile Medicine and Surgery book:

“ Unlike domestic animals, wild animals, including reptiles tend not to show outward signs of disease until the illness is fairly advanced.”

I believe that this might say a lot more than most if my comments in the entire thread also.

(Although I would love to address some of the comment in your last post including your continual reference to monitors in this uromastyx forum and your perception of robust, beautiful, healthy uros a whole six months into this limited experiment, right now I have other commitments and will need to hold off until another time or another day.)

Right now I'm right in the middle of all of this, in that I'm not sure which way to go with some of the husbandry stuff (mostly substrate related). All I know is that I want something better than the newspapers that Sam is on now, since she seems to finally have a clean bill of health. The way I see it, pro exotics has some good (maybe great) ideas that they are applying to keeping uros. But, they probably should have kept it away from the public for now, and setup seperate control groups. They could still do that now. Maybe set on up in a setup that is seen as "standard" right now, then another that uses that setup but just the diet pro exotics offers, and another that uses that setup and just the lighting pro exotics offers, and then another that uses that setup but just the substrate pro exotics uses, etc. etc. etc. By "standard", I mean at least the minimum tank size (what is it, like 4 or 5 square feet?), good basking and hiding spots with appropriate temperatures: Basking 120-130, ambient warm side: 100, ambient cool side: 80 or so. Put a standard substrate in like sand or birdseed (I know your completely against it, but for the sake of determining what's going on with your animals). Also, let them cycle. Let them brumate. You get the picture. You would only need one or two uros per setup, and I know pro exotics has the extra time and money to get a few more baby uros and start them up in control setups.

It seems like doing this and keeping the whole thing under wraps for a couple of years would be a good plan. I like the idea of the soil substrate and everything, but right now it's so new (to the uro hobby and to me) that it seems like a ton of things could go wrong.

Also. I know that you are very knowledgable to herps, Robyn, and an all around good guy that clearly wants the best for the reptiles, but it helps to treat other people as though they are as knowledgable of herps as you are, whether or not you think they are. Just because you are doing something new that is giving so far good results, doesn't mean it's the only way to go. Whether or not it's the best way to go is still to be determined. From my standpoint it seems like a good way to go for people that want to get their uros breeding, but right now having a trough full of 200 pounds of dirt in my room isn't looking like it's going to happen. Maybe a couple inches of dirt, but not the trough. There's more than one reason why too. These are my pets and sure, I like to let them out to run around the room every day or two, and they seem to like it a lot too. I also like to be able to get to them if I need to check on them or something, and I don't care for the idea of digging through two feet of dirt to have to locate them. I also don't like the idea that miswatering the soil could allow the tunnels to collapse on my uro.

But, I'm still open to try the soil thing, because I want my uro to be happy. I just think it's a little premature right now to be spreading this husbandry as gospel. I don't doubt that your uros are very healthy and could still live long lives, but I think we would all feel more comfortable when there's real evidence of that.

Just some things that I've been thinking about.