Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, I guess she was just ovulating, or maybe she had eggs but then absorbed them?? I don't know, but she is her normal size now and eating normal. Can they absorb eggs? I really thought she was pregnant, but then a week later she didn't look as fat, then another week and she looked even less fat, now she's her normal slim self. Is this just what Ovulation looks like? Breaden was young, and I never did see any evidence of a succesfull breeding. Last year by the time she Ovulated she had been mated a few times, and a few times after and then laid her eggs. Since this year was a young male, and I never saw any after-goo, she must have just been ovulating huh? weird But she's doing fine, and acting great as usual, so I'm not worried about her, just wondering what happened to those eggs...if they were there at all?
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Dianne
AKA IcedGoddess
1.2 Cornsnakes
1.3 Cats
1.0 Pionus parrot
0.1 Child
IcedGoddess Creations
Castle Serpents

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If none of the eggs were fertilized, corns can reabsorb thier eggs. Perhaps the male was to young and he never even "did the job". What you witnessed was normal ovulaton. I have seen it lots of times in my two year olds. Sometimes they are just too small to breed (according to my standards) but they try and ovulate anyway. They go off feed towards the end, get very plump, you can feel the eggs in there, and then before you know it, they shed, start eating again and slim back down. I even took one smaller female that was ovulating to the vet for a check up and the vet said that she felt the eggs in there and that "the eggs were way too well-formed for her to be able to absorb them" and advised me to prepare for a clutch of slugs (I never bred her). Well they never ever came and that was last year, so even vets don't know it all.

I thought I had read that somewhere, maybe in Kathy's book? I'm sure that's exactly what she did. Which is just fine with me, since I was trying to stick to just 3 snakes now. Thank you for replying......I thought that was what happened.
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Dianne
AKA IcedGoddess
1.2 Cornsnakes
1.3 Cats
1.0 Pionus parrot
0.1 Child
IcedGoddess Creations
Castle Serpents

"Well they never ever came and that was last year, so even vets don't know it all"

And yet you're relying on your vet's word that there were eggs in the first place??? Sorry, but I disagree... maybe I'm wrong though.

Then again, why didn't my two female cal kings (sold to be as a breeding pair) absorb their eggs last year?
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I have heard, and read before that corns can absorb unfertile eggs. And wether she was going by the vet's word or not doesn't really matter, as she said that the snakes was obviously large, and then was not. Which is what Ruby just did.

Maybe I can get Kathy or Don or someone to poke a nose in here and confirm it, but I'm about 99.9% sure that what she did was absorb the eggs.
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Dianne
AKA IcedGoddess
1.2 Cornsnakes
1.3 Cats
1.0 Pionus parrot
0.1 Child
IcedGoddess Creations
Castle Serpents

I've never heard of fertile ova being resorbed. BTW, resorbtion is from within while absorption is from without. Therefore, they can absorb things out of their bodies whereas they are resorbing from within their bodies. Hence, we're talking here about resorbing.

I don't see how anyone could know if a snake resorbed fertile ova since there is no evidence to evaluate if they were in fact resorbed. No evidence/no conclusion. I think this myth could stem from people noticing how HUGE the follicles were and incorrectly presumed they must have been eggs. Ovarian follicle resorbtion is very common, but in most cases avoidable.
South Mountain Reptiles

"Ovarian follicle resorbtion is very common, but in most cases avoidable."

How does one avoid reabsorbing follicles?

Why would you not want them to be reabsorbed if you were not going to breed?

What happens to them if they are not reabsorbed?

I lost a Ghost Corn last year to a follicle infection.
I never knew she was sick. She ate a rat pup and died three hours later.

The necropsy showed a severe infection due to a large mass of
follicles.

Thank you in advance for your answer!
krawls

Spooky

That's creepy, I had almost the exact same thing happen to a horned viper... except she was dropping slugs for a few weeks prior. The vet wasn't exactly clear on what state her follicles were in and only described it as a 'uterine infection'. But she ate a rat pup and died a few hours later too. Wierd coincidence.
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Eryx - All the fun of a boa in a convenient pocket size!

"Ovarian follicle resorbtion is very common, but in most cases avoidable."

1.How does one avoid reabsorbing follicles?
2.Why would you not want them to be reabsorbed if you were not going to breed?
3.What happens to them if they are not reabsorbed?
I lost a Ghost Corn last year to a follicle infection.
I never knew she was sick. She ate a rat pup and died three hours later. The necropsy showed a severe infection due to a large mass of
follicles.

1. One does not avoid follicle resorbtion. It is almost exclusively done when the follicles go unfertilized. The best way to avoid this is to have a back up male you can use. The only reason you should do that is if (by mircoscopic inspection) you have verified that dead, weak or deformed sperm were detected from the inspection. Some folks (in lieu of inspection) use back up males, but often if you're trying for a particular corn, if you use a different male, it messes up your plans. Further, if you produce something very unusual from that clutch, who was the father?

2. If you don't intend to breed, resorbtion or passing of the infertile follicles is exactly what nature planned. Under normal circumstances there is nothing to worry about. In my opinion, the main difference between captive snakes and wild ones is lack of exercise. Snake breeders especially don't allow their snakes to exercise enough. The ones that have very high snake inventories. This can lead to muscle inferiority and subsequent reproductive failures.

3. If they are not resorbed, they will either be passed OR can stay in there. The latter usually results in secondary infection and/or interference with systemic function. They can effectively block digestion and cause infection that can result in death. Again, I believe exercise will help in both of these situations.

As a rule, I have seen that if the snake is bred by a male that is infertile, she'll usually lay "slugs". Infertile follicles. If she is not bred at all, she'll usually resorb them. There are exceptions, but that's the usual scenarios I've seen here.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

Spooky had not been bred.........Ever.....Not even near a male.
In fact I thought she was a male. She had never been probed. She was also VERY large. Nearly 6 feet. I thought only males got that big....

She also got plenty of exercise. She was the one who hated to poo in her cage so she was taken outside to "go" in the grass every week. I think she held it until I could take her out....
Sometimes in winter it would be a couple of weeks before we could go out....

She never stopped eating.....Never stopped going out for her walks...The only thing I noticed was a couple of days before she died when I took her for her walk she crawled a little odd at first. Nothing else. I thought perhaps I woke her up. On feeding day she ate her rat pup at 5pm. At 8pm she launched herself out of her hide box mouth wide open, rolled around for 10 minutes and died.

Two months before I lost a Ball Python to a long mysterious illness so I was pretty shaken. I do have a good Vet and was able to have a Necropsy performed. I was afraid it may have been more than a coincidence to have a second death.

I know BPs are not your interest but here is a link to that story if you care to read it. There are links near the bottom to the Histopathlogy Report and the Necropsy Photos.
Pearl`s Story

ok...late to this link......

as per David Barker.........he taught me alot last year.....

follicles...form in ovaries.....they may be resorbed.......

once ovulation occurs..they drop from the ovaries into the oviducts.......and there they fertilize.......then line up....and afterwards form shells.......

once they leave the ovary...they cannot be resorbed......they have to come out through the vent/ be layed.......

.......follicles in the ovaries are big he says...as big as they will get almost.......I used to think they dropped as pinhead sized or even single cells......Dave says.....no..they are pretty big(ball eggs)......and that is why people can feel them at ovulation time.......

so.......

if it ovulated....it should pay........

if it just got fat....it may not have actually created follicles...it may have and resorbed....and it may just be fat......(always the possibility it was sick/full of bacteria.....but you would know that...it would still be sick....

....all info from my brain..as I remember it...if anything is wrong..Dave was correct and I remember it wrong....LOL.......
I think this is all as he told me (via emails...long emails.......)....Dave is so smart....he is probably THE smartest herper I ever met actually...(sorry all you other guys...you know almost all.....but Dave takes it to another level...)....

.........Thanx....JYohe

There's a difference between 'can' and 'will'. Not all corns will absorb infertile eggs. Not all corns will absorb /all/ infertile eggs either. And even if a corn absorbs infertile eggs one year doesn't force the corn to have to absorb infertile eggs the next year.

Finally... cornsnakes and kingsnakes are different species. Just because cornsnakes do one thing doesn't mean kingsnakes have to do that as well. I am not a kingsnake expert, but I would say it's not safe to assume that corns and kings have identical reproductive processes and strategies. (After all, you don't have to worry about corns eating their potential mates if they're not yet ready to breed...)

So asking "If corns are supposed to absorb infertile eggs, why didn't my kingsnakes absorb their infertile eggs?" is akin to asking "If navel oranges are supposed to be seedless, how come the apple I just ate has seeds in it?". It doesn't follow.

-Kat
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

What she may have seen in her younger female wasn't ovulation per se but the growth of follicles. In boas we call it the pre-ovulation swell and it's part of things watched for in the "cycle". Often times boas and other snakes get this far then "decide" something isn't right for being gravid and it ends there and the follicles are reabsorbed.(Happened to me this year with a boa.) Once you ovulate though there's usually no going back... It works this way in most species, I don't see how it would be any different in corns. The ovaries are staggered in the body so I can see how swollen follicles could be mistaken for the feel of eggs... *shrugs*
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Jessica Curtis

unmeinohi.net

You probably only saw the outlines of follicles. Those are technically not ova (eggs). Many people say their snake is gravid, but that is only possible after successful insemenation. She may have had ovarian follicles when you thought she was gravid.

If those follicles go unfertilized, they can resorb them in the early stages of development. If not resorbed, they are passed as infertile follicles.

A good rule of thumb for any breedings is to reintroduce the male after you get what you think is the pre-lay shed. If they don't mate, you're probably going to get a clutch of eggs in 4-14 days. My average is around seven days after this shed. If they do mate, you'll be happy you tested the situation with the reintroduction of the male since they were actually follicles and not ova (eggs). Follicles can be as large as full-term eggs usually laid. Your snake may appear to be bulging to the point of being ready to lay any moment when actually they're waiting for a mate to ensemenate the follicles. Always "test" the shed you think is a pre-lay shed. If you'd done this with after the last shed, I'm guessing they'd have bred. You should still have one cycle this year so if you want eggs this season, you should be introducing the male at least one 24 hour period each week OR keep them together (except for feedings) for the next several weeks.

Good luck,

Don
www.cornsnake.NET
South Mountain Reptiles

Ruby is her normal self now, and I never did actually see them breed, only saw them dance around a bit. And he was very young. My friend has him now, and I'm not really wanting eggs this year, not after reducing my collection from 11 to 3, it would be too easy for me to keep a bunch! lol But if I change my mind, Breaden is only a few miles away. I'm guessing they never did anything, and you are right. As long as my Ruby is okay, I'm okay. And she's doing great and really enjoying her 55gallon tank!

(I knew they could resorb SOMETHING! lol)
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Dianne
AKA IcedGoddess
1.2 Cornsnakes
1.3 Cats
1.0 Pionus parrot
0.1 Child
IcedGoddess Creations
Castle Serpents