Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a juvenille kingsnake. I got her from LLL and bought her under the species name of brooksi, and it was labeled as so when i got her. I am looking at photos of young brooks, and plain florida kings, and she looks more like a florida, although, as a baby, she looked more like the brooks. Is there a huge difference in them? Theres the whole thing they are saying brooks are just a different color morph of the florida, making them a south florida kingsnake. And now, i have an adult male, who i bought to be a breeder/pet*gorgeous guy* and i was hoping to breed the juvenille to him in a few years. But i dont want to create hybrids and what not. SO, i would like to have this cleared up. Are brooksi a different species than florida, or are they one in the same? Of course, they are always changing their minds on whats what in the herp world, and ive heard that they are going to break up the colubrid group, because its a mistake or something. Jeez, i wish it was simple like long ago when it was just kingsnakes, ratsnakes, boas...etc. Simplicity has been lost, and it saddens me. Oh, if anyone can answer this, what weight is preferred for breeding a female brooks king.

Dan

Brazilian Rainbow Boa-Prism
Brooks kings-Liam and Tenal Ka
Taramuhara King-Bandit
Cal King-Wedge
Western Hognose-Draco
African Fat-Tailed gecko-Stumpy
Leopard Geckos-Jag, Daisy, Void

The florida kingsnake and brooksi are both common names for the same snake. Lampropeltis getula floridana. This snake comes in many different color morphs which have their own common names, but they are all genetically the same snake. Jeff Robbe

In any case, your snakes are the same species, getula. The distinction between a chain king and florida king or brooksi would be on the subspecific level. Crossing subspecies produces intergrades, not hybrids. Imho it's still to be avoided, just trying to clarify terminology.
peace
terry

You're certainly not the only person to find this confusing! The answer depends more or less on who you ask. You can be assured that your snakes are both of the species Lampropeltis getula. The real question here is whether your juvenile is a true Florida Kingsnake, subspecies L. g. floridiana (known to most breeders and kingsnake enthusiasts here as "Brooksis", or an intergrade between the Florida and Eastern Kingsnake subspecies, L. g. floridiana x getula (known in pure taxonomy as a Peninsula Intergrade, I believe, but usually referred to by breeders and enthusiasts as "Florida kings". The latter (intergrades) occur naturally throughout much of the Florida peninsula. If your juvenile is an intergrade, a.k.a. Florida king, the offspring also would be intergrades (not hybrids). If she's a true Florida Kingsnake (a.k.a. Brooksi), the offspring will also be Brooksis.

The current terminology used by breeders/herpers reflects the way the taxonomy used to be. Once upon a time, each was assigned their own subspecies - the (lighter) South Florida Kingsnake was L. g. brooksi, and the Florida Kingsnake was L. g. floridiana. Taxonomists then discovered that the latter was merely an intergrade between brooksi and getula, so they re-assigned the subspecies name L. g. floridiana to the South Florida Kingsnake, renamed it the Florida Kingsnake, and did away with the subspecies name L. g. Brooksi. But to most kingsnake fans, L. g. floridianas still are, and always will be, brooksis.
-----
MichaelB

>>You're certainly not the only person to find this confusing! The answer depends more or less on who you ask. You can be assured that your snakes are both of the species Lampropeltis getula. The real question here is whether your juvenile is a true Florida Kingsnake, subspecies L. g. floridiana (known to most breeders and kingsnake enthusiasts here as "Brooksis", or an intergrade between the Florida and Eastern Kingsnake subspecies, L. g. floridiana x getula (known in pure taxonomy as a Peninsula Intergrade, I believe, but usually referred to by breeders and enthusiasts as "Florida kings". The latter (intergrades) occur naturally throughout much of the Florida peninsula. If your juvenile is an intergrade, a.k.a. Florida king, the offspring also would be intergrades (not hybrids). If she's a true Florida Kingsnake (a.k.a. Brooksi), the offspring will also be Brooksis.
>>
>>The current terminology used by breeders/herpers reflects the way the taxonomy used to be. Once upon a time, each was assigned their own subspecies - the (lighter) South Florida Kingsnake was L. g. brooksi, and the Florida Kingsnake was L. g. floridiana. Taxonomists then discovered that the latter was merely an intergrade between brooksi and getula, so they re-assigned the subspecies name L. g. floridiana to the South Florida Kingsnake, renamed it the Florida Kingsnake, and did away with the subspecies name L. g. Brooksi. But to most kingsnake fans, L. g. floridianas still are, and always will be, brooksis.
>>-----
>>MichaelB
-----
~Sasheena

Taxonomists then discovered that the latter was merely an intergrade between brooksi and getula, so they re-assigned the subspecies name L. g. floridiana to the South Florida Kingsnake, renamed it the Florida Kingsnake, and did away with the subspecies name L. g. Brooksi.

The pattern where the south florida snakes are different and the peninsula snakes are intergrades was one of the issues. But if it was that simple, then brooksi would have been the valid name and floridana would have been the synonym.

However, the reason Blaney sunk the name "brooksi" into synonymy with "floridana" was that the type specimen of "floridana" was actually a specimen of the "south florida" kingsnake. Therefore the original name for the South Florida population of kingsnakes was L.g. floridana. So when brooksi was described, they were describing a snake that had already been described as floridana. So in reality, even if you do like to call the SoFl snakes by a different name, the correct name for them is "floridana", not because of their relationship to snakes from further north, but because that is what they were originally called.

In fact, if someone were to come along and resurrect the peninsular snakes as a valid taxon, they couldn't call them "floridana" as that name was originally intended for the South Florida snakes. They would have to find a new name for them. Of course, this is never going to happen as it is obviously just a wide intergrade zone.
-----
Chris Harrison

Good post Chris.

As I understand it as well floridana has priority at this point. I was reading Krysko's diss. closely last night as a matter of fact...I know he caught alot of flak because of it, but it was a solid, well-done study and until someone else completes something more definitive, then it's one of the best at getting at the "meat" of the taxonomic tangle with the L.getula group in the SE.

I had to do a grad. paper on the taxonomy of Lampropeltis back in 2000 and quickly had to narrow it down to L.g.g and L.g.f. because of the complex taxonomic and nomenclatural history of these snakes - even a cursory paper on the taxonomy of Lampropeltis in the U.S. is more than a semester's worth of research!

Like I said to Sean about the AK or whatever popular name you want to apply to them, there's a reason why it's taken 30 some odd years to work out the systematics of this snake. Now you can catch more of them because of access - 30 years ago you didn't have much access to places with plenty of tin, etc. (not that that's the only place you can find them of course). These days, cruising in ANF is much easier than when we used to come and camp there as a kid 25 years ago - it's exploded in comparison.

Working the lowland, eastern part of the Apalachicola basin by boat could turn up some of the patternless kings that they will name (hopefully) at some point before long.
-----
-Keeper of the Beasts from the East.

so you are saying that brooksi are the same as floridana? or are they different names for the same species/subspecies but which have diverged somewhat? From all the pics I see the brooksi (or those labelled as such) have a lot more yellow on them than the floridana--now my florida has gotten more yellow as he's aged but he's nothing like the brooksi pics I see, and the coloring of the head seems different--could someone explain this for me? thanks
-----
Sue Barnett
1.0 Florida King (Vega)
0.1 Western hognose (Sola)
0.1 Egyptian spiny mouse (Mia)
4.2 mini rex rabbits (Basil, Pippin, Reggie, Hayden, Jackie and Peek-a-boo)
0.1 Plott hound (Molly)
1.0 half Arab (Zarr)
1.0 Betta (Flash)