Reptile & Amphibian Forums

For the past four or five years i have gotten the best results from breeding hondurans after their second sheds. I noticed that maybe a tenth of my females would not proceed normally (i.e., rapidly) to their second sheds, so after waiting four, five, six weeks or more, and seeing obvious signs of ovulation, i'd get nervous--was i going to miss the "window of opportunity"? so i'd pair them up then. they'd breed, but i noticed the fertility rate wasn't as good for them as for the others, or that those clutches were more likely to be "resorbed" than clutches developed after 2nd sheds. But it did seem like some of those females unconsciously delayed their sheds, wanting to breed so that their 2nd sheds would be their prelay sheds. I viewed it basically as an anomaly--breed after 2nd shed, whenever poss., and that that was the normal (optimal) way for things to unfold.

This year however it seems like half or more of my females have deferred those 2nd sheds and, for the most part, are now breeding five-seven weeks after the first shed. In a few instances the females seem very far along in development and are not accepting the males, so I'm thinking i did miss their ovulation and i'm expecting slugs from those females.

Now i'm wondering if i should put animals together based more on the calendar than on number-of-sheds, or whether i should start putting them together early (say, routinely after the first sheds) and hope that either they won't breed then, if their bodies are more geared to wait for two sheds, or that (contrary to what i think i've seen in the past) if they do breed after their first sheds they'll be as routinely productive as my post-second-shed breedings have been.

Has anyone else seen this? How do you time the beginning of pairing your hondos? When do most of yours seem most receptive, most productive?

I realize the simple answer might be "wait til you can feel follicles" but it seems to me i've had awfully good results starting females after their second sheds, often before follicles can be felt. So would a wait-for-follicles strategy work?

I look forward to hearing about your experiences & your opinions.

peace
terry

Terry,

Iv'e observed coulbrids breeding before their first, after their first, and after their 2nd post brumation sheds.

These observations were over a ten year period with pairs housed together year round. I believe the males are more in tune with the females cycle when housed together. If housed seperately then introduced I believe some males will breed (rape, lol)females even when not ready. Maybe because of the pheramones in the room of other ovulating females?

Something of interest Ive noted is each female for the most part has a very predictable cycle. For example if she was observed being bred to before her post brumation shed it was normaly that time every year. Although, most females were observed breeding sometime after their first or 2nd post brumation shed, the highest % was after their first.

Because these observations were made involving pairs housed together I obviously didn't see ALL the breedings. But after several years it was like clockwork with most being very predictable and trackable.

I think if I were utilizing one male to breed with several females all maintained seperately I would introduce the male weekly with each female beginning 3-4 weeks out of brumation. I've heard some disscussion that early breedings may stimulate folicle development but haven't seen any proof of this.

Great topic!

Tad

Terry,
I had a albino laying eggs as I left the house this morning.I brought all my stuff up on feb first.I have three others that have pre-shed and about eight more in the blue for there pre-lay.
I also have several others that are just now ovulating and will lay in about five weeks.

I start putting mine together right after there first shed.If they don't breed there is nothing lost.I don't think you will get bad eggs this way.If she isn't ready she won't let him breed?
Most will breed after there second but not all of them.
In a nutshell,I think you can miss it if you wait to long but I don't think you will blow it by breeding to soon?
Just my opinion?

shannon

must be because of dbl. clutchers. when does this ovul. occur.Chris

My experiance had been the 2nd ovulation normaly occurs right after the first clutch of eggs if theres going to be one.

If you are asking is there a sencond ovulation if you MISS the first I believe the answer is yes. I have had few instances where a female had obviously developed follicles and I had no male available. Then later in the season was able to get a male with her and did produced fertile eggs.

If I am able to get a paticular female to feed soon after egg laying (corns excluded as they go into shed cycle right after egg laying)I have a succes rate of aprox. 80% getting a second clutch. I also allow the female access to her male two days after this first post egg laying meal then leave them together always except when feeding or egg laying.

Tad

Hi Terry,

I don't think Norm Damm does posts, but he's always had the opinion that Hondurans (like Sinoaloans and Nelson's milks) are "late breeders."

I have found this to be true as well. It also seems that Hondurans are less tied to a shed cycle than other milksnakes. Sometimes I'll put a female that has had her second or third shed in with a male and the male won't start courting her until a week or more later.

I've always had good Honduran fertility and Norm has had Hondurans hatch as late as Halloween and in one case, Christmas (these were of course double clutches). So I'd say there seems to be a correlation between late breeding and good fertility.

Several years ago, while vacationing in Las Vegas, Tad Fitzgerald was kind enough to let me come over and see his excellent reptile collection. He had mentioned that with mountain kings that the males developed sperm that was more fertile later in the year (I believe he was looking at samples under a microscope).

So my "educated guess" would be that in at least some cases it is better to wait until later (usually May) in the year before putting Hondurans togather.

Tim

Hi Tim,

Hope all is well, your welcome to visit again if your in Vegas.

And yes I did determine some of the males produced viable sperm later in the year. The only ones I observed this with was two paticular mountain kings.

I would still intoduce pairs (if kept seperately) at least once per week 3-4 weeks out of brumation and continue doing so the entire breeding season. This insures the female has access to a male IF she is in fact ready.

The sample is to determine weather or not to use a different male.

Tad

Terry,I think that a freshly shed female will more likely give off pheremones but even in brumation they each seem to be in their individual growth cycle.It would make sense that timing(day count) would be or more value than sheds because of this individuality...Just a thought,Jeff

Would someone please do me a big favor and explain "follicles" to me?
I've just gotten into breeding hondos this year, and I only came across the term about a week ago.
Currently I have two breeding pairs (Anery het hypo x het hypo & TC Albino x Tang het albino), and haven't seen any activity from them.
I'd also appreciate any help/advice you can give me about basic hondo breeding (temps, humidity, etc). You can e-mail me at Silvano_06095@yahoo.com
Thank You!!

Oh, and Shannon, your breeding & husbandry page you sent me to is Great!

A follicle is the part of the ovary where eggs develop. It breaks open and releases the egg to be fertilized at a later point in time. It is important to have a male with your female(s) at this time.

Tad

> In 2002, I bred 3 hondo females after their first sheds, they all
> bred, looked gravid after breeding for a couple weeks, then shed
> again-(pre-egg shed) but none of them layed eggs, they all stayed in
> the nest box but reabsorbed the eggs i guess. Last year, I had the
> same 3 females lay good eggs, I waited till after their 2nd shed for
> all 3 of them and they had good eggs. After seeing your post I made me
> think should I try again now-(most of my females have had their first
> sheds this year) or wait for the 2nd, I guess I'll try things out and
> see what works.
>

thanks for the feedback. let me encourage you to post that to the
forum, too, so your experiences will benefit the whole group.

terry

This was an e-mail I sent Terry, he thought it would be a good idea to post it here, for others to see the results I had. I guess I'm put a couplke females with males today, see how they react, but most likely I'll wait till after their 2nd sheds, since that is what has worked out better for me.
Jeff Teel