Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hello . I have read all the threads pertaining to your soil substrate and have wondered about something. First, I am wondering how you keep the uro's from rotting off their scales from the dampness of the enclosures? (or the dirt they are laying on)Also, they are supposed to be a animal withOUT alot of humidity (whereas iguana's DO like the humid) so can't that also cause future problems?

I have rescued more than my share (and have won in court every time) from people doing setup's very similar to yours. I have pics of 2 from a pet store that the ones underside literally was bleeding from being in a humid, wet environment. So much, that the scales rotted off her feet and caused it to swell so that she couldn't even walk on it normally.....she held it out to the side.

fortunately, I gave her the best care I could and most all of it healed and regained full use of her leg. However, the other permanant damage that was done eventually had taken her life.

So with this...I am wondering...what is the longest term you have tested this particular setup?

I am not agreeing or disagreeing with your methods..just curious for my own knowledge.

Thanks
Renee

I also use a soil substrate...I think the first thing that people wondering about this type of set up need to do is get this idea the the whole setup is damp and wet. The are not by any means. When you have it right, there is a wide range of humidity for the Uro to choose from, and often times the CHOOSE to be in a burrow that they have dug out and is humid. Robyn has been keeping 20 Ornates this way for about 7 months now, he has kept monitors and gilas in the same setups for several years. Not one of his Uros shows any signs of tail or digit problems that or thought to be a problem of anything other than a bone dry cage. When you set up a dirt substrat, the top layer becomes "baked" it is under the surface that stays damp but not wet, this is very similar to the soil in nature. Why do Uros burrow besides to be safe from predators? Whould it make sense that a humid burrow would aid in shedding and also to conserve moisture? Every time a Lizard form an arid environment breaths out they are expelling the moisture they need to survive, If the dig a burrow that is humid, this loss is minimized. I think the "state of the art" setup as Robyn likes to calls it , is the way to go with lizards from arid regions. I think the success that Robyn has seen and will continue to have just does not sit well with some of the Uro keepers that have been trying and not succeeding...just my opinion of course. As for the rescues you speak of, there demise was from other aspects of the husbandry not being met along with the poor attempt at the use of a soil substrate. Mine are fine, his are fine and I know there are other forun users that have Uros setup the same way that are doing just fine. I hope some of this info helped you get a better understanding of soil substrate setups.

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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

When I first heard about the soil substrate, I know I had visions of muddy soil and uros shooting mucous out of their noses and mouthes (not sure if this really happens with RI, it's just what I had pictured at the time).

It really isn't.

Another thing that came to mind when I read your post. There seems to be a big thing going on between two groups on this forum. One group is what I would call the "soil" group, and another all call the "sand" group (not specifically sand, but you know, sand, seed, whatever). Right now I seem to be stuck right in the middle. Basically, I'm neutral. I'm not sure which way to go right now. Not like it really matters, since I could always change later. Anyways, I have been noticing that at some points there are hard feelings between the two groups. I don't see why this should be. On both sides I see happy, healthy animals (for the most part. There can obviously be exceptions for both). There are always going to be differences in opinions on substrates. Much more so than almost any other aspect of reptile husbandry. Whether you do soil, or sand (seed, whatever), we should all just be happy that our animals are healthy, and that we have such a great interactive resource here. I have seen name calling around this forum (personal and non personal) and it seems very stupid to me. People aren't "ignorant" unless they're doing something that really has a negative affect on the overall health of their uro.

Basically, we all have different opinions to share, but let's try to keep from killing each other over something as controversal as substrate. I know there are some people on here right now that really need advice on basic care of their uros, and there are definately people out there that are experienced enough to give them the advice they need. Yet I see so many more posts about dirt (negative and positive), and most of them restate the same thing we've heard over and over.

I just didn't recall seeing what I was asking stated anywhere thru all those threads. As you know, I am one of those "seed" users and have had great success (and recommended it to you to begin with)
But I too, see a division, and just wanted clarification for my own knowledge if I were to go and do this setup someday. For now, I will remain using my seed and/or sand substrate that works for me and thats that.

Renee

you're a good example of "good" seed/sand/other dry substrate user. You keep your animals healthy on it, and have had great success with it. I agree with Robyn though partly. I have noticed that some (a select few) seem to have thin, maybe dehydrated uros, or just uros having problems adjusting, and they would do well with dirt, assuming their owner knows how to use it. I mean, if someone can't keep a setup with a dry substrate up and going, it seems like a moist substrate could give them more problems. But basically, it's a good idea to use and apply.

I think I probably will start with a dry substrate (well, technically she's on a dry substrate right now...newspaper...she doesn't have much of a problem with it, but I want something more natural), but I have also been experimenting with some dirt and stuff. The mix I came out with right now isn't anywhere near good enough for a good burrowing setup. It would work for a nestbox, which I will probably try, but if I decide to go with a dirt setup I'll start over and try to get the mix to turn out better. You have to get the soil just right.

But the way I see it, do what works well for you, and more importantly, your animals. Sorry if this is all really redundant. My mind's a little pre occupied right now. I think my beardie may have pinworms again and I can't get a fecal from him. I have got to find a better cricket supplier.

Thank you Bill for helping to clarify that for me. . Appreciate it!

Renee

actually, that question has been addressed a few times in the Uro forum archive at our FAQ, in fact, that is the topic that i started all discussion with. check out the oldest threads on our list.

with a proper setup, proper temps, proper basking, there should be no problem with tail/belly/toe rot.

i had orginally wondered how Uros were supposed to survive in the wild without someone to "blow dry" them off...

of course, i didn't really wonder about that, but rather, what is it about accepted captive setups that required that to be the case. when i took a look at caresheets, setups, and photos, it was quite obvious.

a soil setup is not a mud pit by any means. it has a variety of humidity levels, and more importantly, a variety of temperate zones, and the animals have the tools they need to get the job done. it isn't humid like a dart frog setup, but if you stick your head in the cage, it is still plenty humid.

they don't have trouble with rot, or the moderate humidity (or feeding, shedding, weight gain, etc) because they don't have some woefully inadequate setup. we keep them so they can accomplish everything they need, as opposed to keeping them in a poor setup, and then having to compensate with added care, steps and "tricks" to prevent or address problems.

the best part of this whole experience was to see folks on this forum try soil setups (with all the other proper aspects), and then within a week start seeing super positive results. rapid weight gain from stubbornly scrawny animals, higher activity levels, better feeding response, more vibrancy, better sheds, etc. i haven't seen many of those folks post in a while, i would be interested in updates, but seeing a struggling animal make great leaps forward in a short amount of time was very cool.

and of course, seeing our babies thriving like crazy into becoming healthy, active, strong, young adults has been great too.
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

I tried reading through the faq since it's spring break, and I have nothing better to do, but once I got to a certain post in it...I believe it may have been the "how fat is too fat" one, I couldn't get any ones further down to come up. I kept getting a kingsnake window that said something like "invalid thread" or something. I'll try again in a little bit, but just wanted to see if there are any problems with some of the links.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply! I did not go to the archives and try to weed out the posts to find what I was looking for on your site. I meant that I didn't see it cleared up here thats all. I have little time to float thru too many posts.

Anyhow, I appreciate your response and will keep it all in mind for in the future should I decide to change my setup.

Renee