Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i was reading some posts below about nutrtional values of insects and i have a few questions...first, wouldn't the calcium content of cricket vary depending upon what the cricket has just eaten??...for instance, is the calcium percentage the same for a cricket that just ate a potatoe the same as the cricket that just ate dandelion greens???

second, if it's true that what the cricket just consumed will change it's calcium content then by how much and aren't we then running the risk of oversupplementing when we dust???

I've read the same nutritional charts that everyone else has read but i'm just very confused on how analysts come up with an exact percentage??...oversupplementing is just as bad as undersupplementing and i'm just thinking that, let's just say, your feeding 5 well gutloaded crickets to your frog and their gut is carrying .25 percent calcium and you dust all of them, isn't that bad???

i'm just using crickets as an example i actually don't even use them anymore...i feed roaches and nightcrawlers mostly

In one of the upcoming issues of reptiles magazine there is supposed to be an article covering a lot of the issues with gut loading. There will also be a chapter/article in the Art of Amphibian Husbandry (AAH) which is tentatively due to come out in July.

This is one of the problems with the phrase gutloading. The phrase gutloading was originally coined to cover diets that were specifically designed to supplement the calcium levels of the crickets. However these diets do/did not deal with other trace mineral-vitamin supplements. Additionally over time the phrase gutloading has come to mean any diet that is fed to the feeder insects in question.

In general unless you feed a high calcium diet the amount of calcium in the diet is insufficient to overcome the poor calcium to phosphorus ratio of the crickets. You would need to feed a diet specifically designed to overcome this deficency. Feeding the crickets kale or spinach or potato is not going to significantly change the calcium content of the crickets. However when using these high calcium diets it is often difficult to achieve a positive calcium to phosphorus ratio in the target insect. Additionally if there is insufficient D3 in the diet or from UVB, then the calcium is also of no use. These high calcium diets cause increased mortality of the insects as well as being unpalatable to the crickets. This means that if there is anything else that the insects can eat they will instead of the high calcium diet. Another problem is that if there is insufficient water the insects will die in a matter of hours. Insects will also rapidly excrete the excess calcium from the diet (often in a matter of a couple of hours).
This applies to all of the feeder insects on the market. With respect to nightcrawlers, these will have a positive calcium to phosphorus ratio if they are kept in calcium rich soil (not the "soil" they come with when you buy them.)

Hope this helps,
Ed

there is so much more I need to learn about my reptiles diets. Just curious Ed, I take it that the gutload you developed with Rob takes care of all the needs you just talked about. Is there much difference in the ingredients in that gutload as compared to most other commercial gutloads? I have been using the same jar of Flucker cricket feed for just over a year. On the label it says that it can cause death if it expires and goes bad but there is no expiry date. Shouldn't something that could cause your animal to die be clearly stated? Sorry for all of the questions, I'm going to take advantage of your expertise on this subject. When it comes to chemical ratios... I don't have a clue,

Thanks again,
Lisa
-----
0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
0.1 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Pacman Frog (Phatty)
1.0 Lovebird (Tony Montana)
1.0 Elkhound (Otto)
0.1 Malamute (Paris)
5.0 Bettas

To be honest this is still a rapidly evolving field. Rob's gutload is not intended to supply calcium to the animals but to try and ensure an insect with the maximal nutritional value (including caretenoids for color, antioxidents (as it doesn't hurt) and other micronutrients). Insects when purchased from the pet store are deficient in vitamins and minerals from being improperly fed (or not at all) during shipping and/or in the pet store. The reason we avoided the calcium additive to the gutload is because gutloading insects according to the literature is usually not an efficient method of ensuring a proper calcium level in many feeder insects (As this is Rob's business, let me refer you back to Rob for more information on the gutload) and usually causes an increase in mortality in the feeder insects.

There are big gaps in the information we have for these animals and their dietary requirements. One of the reasons for this is that what we know of the dietary requirements of animals is all based on domestic animals as this is where the most profit can be made. There have been a few small scale studies for the specific requirements of amphibian and reptiles but more still needs to be done in this field (most of the studies are being performed with/or by AZA Zoos at this time and are a result of animals not doing well within the "known" dietary requirements).

I can't comment on the fluker product as I do not know all of the ingredients off hand (and unlike human food they are not required to label it or give a full analysis). But what I would recommend is only buying as much as you can use for six months and discarding the rest after that time frame is up.

Sorry I can'e be more exact but I as I do not have the exact ingredients in front of me I can't review it for an opinion. (but if my article on gutloading is in the next Reptiles magazine it should have some very good information for you. I would also recommend the article coming out in the AAH journal.) Otherwise, if you can get an old copy of Mader's book (which is where most of the nutritional info is summed up and often cited), a copy of Frye's books and the newer Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, you will have a through grounding in the needed information. I have not (yet) aquired the newer set of reptile medicine/husbandry texts that (I think) TFH came out with over the last couple of years but I hope to soon.

Hope this helps, (If not please feel free to ask)

Ed

I am definitely not a big fan of pet stores, which is the reason I decided to purchase feeders from Rob. I would have never thought calcium would actually cause a higher rate of mortality in insects. However, now that I think about it the crickets I keep with the calcium water gel have never lived past a week and a bit.

I have noticed that there are big gaps in the information for reptiles and ALL their requirements. It seems like everyone has a different way of doing things like feeding (when, what and how), substrates, veterinary care... My dogs are definitely easier to feed . I don't think I have ever done as much research on them as I have on my reptiles. Don't get me wrong though they are truly my babies, just easier to care for.

I recently had my leopard gecko of four years die on me. I probably spent well over $350 trying to get him better. Unfortunately, the vet I took him to turned my situation from bad to horrible. I am honestly appalled that he calls himself a herp vet, with his lack of experience.

From the research I have done I believe my lg started off with parasites, or may have just been in hibernation mode. He wasn't eating much if anything. The vet for some reason would not do a fecal, even after I handed him one to sample. He insisted that my lg had MBD, which could have been true but I'm not sure since I dusted his food. I think it is the extreme amount of a liquid calcium supplement from the vet that in the end killed him. The vet told me to give force feed him this supplement, get a bright UV light (and leave it on 24/7 for the first couple of weeks), and take out all of his hiding spots so he had to be under the bright light.

After all this my lg's condition deteriorated, not surprising. When he wasn't getting any better I brought him in for an x-ray to make sure he wasn't impacted ($85 later, he wasn't). The calcium supplement made him violently gag, so I gave up on it after 3 weeks. The next day I tried to give him some water and he keeled over. But we are in a frog forum so I'll get back on topic.

I have never read a reptile magazine so you'll have to forgive me I don't know what AAH stands for, let me know and I'll keep an eye out for it. Once again thank you for all of your help and information, it is all very informative and good to know. I just purchased that gutload mix and I am looking forward to trying it and the butterworms.

Lisa
-----
0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
0.1 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Pacman Frog (Phatty)
1.0 Lovebird (Tony Montana)
1.0 Elkhound (Otto)
0.1 Malamute (Paris)
5.0 Bettas

MBD can be difficult to treat and animals that recover occasionally have long term problems. If the bones that support the muscles used for swallowing have decalcified then it is likely to cause the animal to gag as they have a difficulty swallowing. He probably gave you calcium gluconate to give to the gecko.
The x-ray also should have shown if the animal had MBD as the bone density is much less than it should be. Geckos that present with symptoms of MBD are frequently impacted...

Ed

He often drank water from his bowl with no problems before I was given the supplement, even when first given the stuff he was still drinking on his own. The vet said he definitely was not impacted and I did see the x-ray. It looked normal to me but I don't have experience with x-rays, so he still may have had MBD. I know that the supplement had vitamin D in it as well. He was also giving a shot of vitamin D that caused a skin reaction. He developed a slightly darker large bump that scabbed over (maybe from scratching). It stayed there and almost seemed to get worse. Have you ever heard of this happening? Also what does AAH stand for? Thanks again,

Lisa
-----
0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
0.1 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Pacman Frog (Phatty)
1.0 Lovebird (Tony Montana)
1.0 Elkhound (Otto)
0.1 Malamute (Paris)
5.0 Bettas

Before I forget it stands for Art of Amphibian Husbandry. I know it was advertised fairly recently as a banner ad here on kingsnake. It is a new journal that is supposed to come out once a year with a variety of amphibian husbandry articles and amphibian art work in it. (Obviously it will vary from issue to issue).

So you were to mix the calcium supplement in the water? I would have expected you to need to squirt it down its throat to make sure they recieved a sufficient dose.
It is possible to have a bad reaction to many items that are injected into the animals' body so I'm not sure about that aspect of it. As I said occasionally animals with MBD have other underlying problems that make recovery and or survivial problomatic. I'm not a vet so I'm not really qualified to second guess your vets diagnosis.
I will say this, if you have a vet that is either not doing what you feel is needed or is not working with you to the extent that you wish they would, change vets as you are paying for their services.

Ed

No the calcium supplement was already a liqud and was in a test tube with a rubber stopper. I did have to squirt it down his throat (I can't remember what the containers to do this are called).

It is to bad as he is the only "herp" vet in my town, but I have looked into seeing a different vet in a larger city a couple of hours away. There were just to many issues with him that made me extremly unhappy. For example one thing was when I had to leave Rex there for a day, I found out he had been there for 5 hours with no heat (he was colder than he had ever felt before), they just left him in the tiny box I brought him in. I had even explained to the receptionist that he needed to be kept somewhere warm. If he is truly a herp vet (at least a good one) I would think he should have proper heating for them available or at least asked me to bring mine. I know this probably would have been ok for a healthy leopard gecko, but Rex was very ill at this point.

Anyways enough of my vet talk, I'll keep my eyes open for that reptile journal.

Thanks again,
Lisa
-----
0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
0.1 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Pacman Frog (Phatty)
1.0 Lovebird (Tony Montana)
1.0 Elkhound (Otto)
0.1 Malamute (Paris)
5.0 Bettas

Hi Lisa,
Check the AARV website (http://www.arav.org/) for a list of approved reptile and amphibian vets near you. If there aren't any near you check with the regular vets to see if some are interested in treating herps. And then screen them for ones that will take suggestions or is willing to consult (many of the larger Zoos will consult with a vet over exotic medicine).
This is what I would recommend.

Hope this helps,
Ed

Hey Ed, I checked unfortunately there is nothing in my town here. I have heard though that one of the best most recommended vets in Canada works in the city a couple hours away. I going to try everything in my power though to keep my reptiles healthy so I wont have to make the trip. Though sometime this summer I would like to take them in to get a check up.

Thanks again,
Lisa
-----
0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
0.1 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Pacman Frog (Phatty)
1.0 Lovebird (Tony Montana)
1.0 Elkhound (Otto)
0.1 Malamute (Paris)
5.0 Bettas

np
-----
0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
0.1 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Pacman Frog (Phatty)
1.0 Lovebird (Tony Montana)
1.0 Elkhound (Otto)
0.1 Malamute (Paris)
5.0 Bettas

I understood what you meant just fine. No need to apologize.
Ed

Ed,

If the calcium rich veggies are still inside of the cricket while the frog eats it won't the frog still recieve high amounts of calcium?
-----
Devin
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com
0.0.4 Dendrobates galactonotus 'Red'
4.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Dwarf French Guiana'
1.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Powder Blue'
5.1 Mantella aurantiaca
2.1 Mantella crocea
0.1.4 Mantella madagascariensis
1.0 Ceratophrys cranwelli
1.0 Bufo americanus
0.0.1 Salamandra salamandra
1.0 Ambystoma tigrinum
0.1 Chamaeleo calyptratus
0.1 Phelsuma dubia
1.1 Uroplatus ebenaui
0.0.1 Chrysemys picta belli
1.0 Terrapene carolina triunguis

There isn't really a way to measure the exact amount of calcium you're offering to a frog. Like you pointed out, it will depend largely on what the cricket has been fed but also on how much powdered suppliment is on the cricket when a frog eats it. The average hobbyist doesn't measure how much calcium suppliment is on a cricket in the first place and often a lot of the powder that's on the cricket rubs off onto the substrate in the cage before the frog has time to eat it. It's pretty much a guess and hope for the best situation. The brand of suppliment used will also affect how much of it the frog actually uses or processes, some brands are pretty much just a waste.
-----
Devin
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com
0.0.4 Dendrobates galactonotus 'Red'
4.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Dwarf French Guiana'
1.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Powder Blue'
5.1 Mantella aurantiaca
2.1 Mantella crocea
0.1.4 Mantella madagascariensis
1.0 Ceratophrys cranwelli
1.0 Bufo americanus
0.0.1 Salamandra salamandra
1.0 Ambystoma tigrinum
0.1 Chamaeleo calyptratus
0.1 Phelsuma dubia
1.1 Uroplatus ebenaui
0.0.1 Chrysemys picta belli
1.0 Terrapene carolina triunguis

Hi Devin,
This is why you should only feed out as many insects as can be consumed within a couple of hours as after this most of the dust will be worn/groomed off the insect. If you are consistant with the feedings then there will be sufficient calcium for the animals. I would recommend in animals that are fed daily alternating dusting with a vitamin-mineral supplement with straight calcium carbonate. In animals that are fed three times a week or less dusting with each meal.

While the quantity of calcium can be important (as too much can cause conditional deficiencies of trace elements but with dusting regimens this may be difficult to achieve) the ratio to phosporus is also very important. There is not sufficient calcium in any of the plants we feed the insects to come close to overcoming the poor calcium to phosphorus ratio(you need to actively feed calcium carbonate to the insects to even come close). Also you need to remember that insects like crickets have a rapid gut transit time. They will rapidly excrete any calcium in their intestional track (about as quickly as dusting wears off). This is why it is difficult to oversupplement with calcium when it is dusted on the crickets or fed to the insects.
Does this make it any clearer?
Ed

n/p
-----
Devin
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com
0.0.4 Dendrobates galactonotus 'Red'
4.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Dwarf French Guiana'
1.1 Dendrobates tinctorius 'Powder Blue'
5.1 Mantella aurantiaca
2.1 Mantella crocea
0.1.4 Mantella madagascariensis
1.0 Ceratophrys cranwelli
1.0 Bufo americanus
0.0.1 Salamandra salamandra
1.0 Ambystoma tigrinum
0.1 Chamaeleo calyptratus
0.1 Phelsuma dubia
1.1 Uroplatus ebenaui
0.0.1 Chrysemys picta belli
1.0 Terrapene carolina triunguis

Where do you get straight calcium carbonate? I have been looking for some to put in a dish for my geckos.
-----
0.1 Hypo Leopard Gecko
0.1 Albino Leopard Gecko
0.1 Blizzard Leopard Gecko
1.0 Pacman Frog (Phatty)
1.0 Lovebird (Tony Montana)
1.0 Elkhound (Otto)
0.1 Malamute (Paris)
5.0 Bettas

Rep-Cal makes a 100% calcium carbonate ultrafine powder supplement for herps. I use this with my leopard and day geckos.
You can also check with your local pharmacist (I've purchased calcium carbonate from chains.) You'll need to ask them about it and finally you can buy it from some of the chemical companies. If you are getting from one of these istitutions you want pharmacy grade or its equivalent.

Ed

Thanks to all who replied (i don't think i explained it too clearly)....Obviosly there is still much to know...i feed my insects chopped dandelion green, green peppers, red peppers, kiwi, plum, carrots, apple, tomato and grapes (all mixed together and refrigerated, lasts a week or more) and i put T-rex cricket diet on their plate also...i do the best i can but i'm simply guessing when it comes to what benefit the frog or cham is recieving...i dust every 3rd insect for my frogs in general...it varies depending on how many insects they'll take in a feeding...anyway, thanks again for everyones help and i hope i didn't add more confusion to nutrition then there already was..lol

Does the T-rex have a high calcium content? If so you should offer it without the vegetable mix as the crickets will selectively feed on the veggies as opposed to the commercial cricket feed. Just make sure the crickets have access to water as giving them a high calcium diet without access to water can kill the crickets in a matter of hours.
Amphibian and reptile nutrition is a confusing and rapidly changing field. Some bufonids develop hypovitaminosis on a supplemented diet that is sufficient in vitamin A for other species of anurans so there is some concern about the way those species metabolize beta-carotene.

Ed

Calcium max.10% on the t-rex gutload...i know what you mean about the calcium killing crickets...i've had to play with what i put into the fruit/vegetable mix...i used to use swiss chard and it wiped the crickets out in less than 24 hours...when i fesd alot of dandelion green the crickets hardly touch the commercial gutload...i've got it to the point now where all the commercial gutload is gone in 1 day and bout half the veggie mix is eaten.

again, let me just say that crickets make up a very small part of my reptiles/amphibians diet...they are fed mainly lobster roaches that are fed iams dogfood and my veggie mix...they also get nightcrawlers, silkworms and superworms

if you could point me toward some good nutrition articles or websites i would really appreciate it...thanks again for all your help

Here are two, I'll get the other ones later.
Ed

Donoghue, Susan; Langenberg, Julie, 1996, Nutrition, In Reptile Medicine and Surgery, edited by Mader, Douglas R., W.B. Saunders Company, Philadelphia

Wright, Kevin M., Whitaker, Brent R., 2001, Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, Krieger Publishing Co., Malabar

Bernard, Joni B.; Allen Mary E.; 1997, Feeding captive insectivorous animals: nutritional aspects of insects as food, In Nutrition Advisory Group Handbook, Fact Sheet 003, Nutritional Advisory Group.

Boyer, Thomas H., 1996, Hypovitaminosis A and Hypervitaminosis A, pp. 382-392 edited by Douglas Mader, In Reptile Medicine and Husbandry, W. B. Saunders Company, Philadelphia

Boyer, Thomas H., Metabolic Bone Disease, In Reptile Medicine and Surgery, edited by Mader, Douglas R., 1996, W. B. Saunders Co., Philadelphia

Crissey, Susan D.; Ward, Ann M.; Maslanka, Mike T. 2001, Nutrient content of nutritional supplements available for use in captive lizard feeding programs, pp. 53-59 edited by M. S. Edwards, K.J. Lisi, M. L. Schlegel, R. E. Bray, In Proceedings of the American Zoo and Aquarium Association Fourth Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition

Donoghue, Susan; Langenberg, Julie; 1996, Nutrition, pp. 91-98 edited by Douglas Mader, In Reptile Medicine and Surgery, W. B. Saunders Company, Philadelphia

Hunt, Amy S.; Ward, Ann M.; Ferguson, Gary, 2001, Effects of a high calcium diet on gut loading in various ages of crickets (Acheta domestica) and mealworms (Tenebrio molitor), pp. 94-102 edited by M. S. Edwards, K.J. Lisi, M. L. Schlegel, R. E. Bray, In Proceedings of the American Zoo and Aquarium Association Fourth Conference on Zoo and Wildlife Nutrition

Porter, Warren P.; Cole, Charles J.; Townsend, Carol R.; 1994, Captive maintenance and lineage senescence in parthenogenetic lizards (family Teiidae), edited by J. B. Murphy, Kraig Adler, Joseph T. Collins, In Captive Management and Conservation of Amphibians and Reptiles, Society for the Study of Amphibians and Reptiles. Ithaca

Sabatini, Jeremy A.; Dierenfeld, Ellen S.; Fitzpatrick, Marianne P.; Hashim, Laurette; 1998, Effects of internal and external supplementation on the nutrient content of crickets, the Vivarium 9(4): 23-24

Wright, Kevin M.; 2001, Diets for captive amphibians, pp. 63-71, edited by K. M. Wright and B. R. Whitaker, In Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry, Krieger Publishing Co., Malabar

np