Reptile & Amphibian Forums

this is a post from the monitor forum, by Frank Retes, a very successful monitor breeder, and he addresses some common lizard problems, and it would certainly apply to Uros. interesting to take this thought and apply it to common Uro setups...

in reply to a posted question on monitor impactions

"First off, mice and birds(fur and feathers) have nothing to do with impactions. Impactions are caused by many other enviornmental conditions or desease.

The most common enviornmental condition is dehydration. The most common cause of dehydration is open/screen tops. I discribed this many years ago, as a beef jerky machine. That is, you use a heat source(lamp) to heat a spot(hot spot) this in turn heats the air, the air quickly rises. As it raises, it draws as must moisture as it can carry. It will take this moisture from the substrate, water bowl, and the bag of water you call a monitor. The hot humid air is rapidly replaced by cooler dry air from the room(most rooms are dry) The process is continous.

The reason I call this the "jerky" condition is, this is exactly how jerky is made. Also, you can test your cage by making jerky. If you place sliced meat in the cage and it drys out(becomes jerky) instead of rotting, then the cage has too much air movement.

Remember, monitors are salamanders with a tiny bit thicker skin, this thicker skin is to slow down dehydration. It does not and cannot prevent it. In nature, monitors and most reptiles daily activity is primarily controlled by the gaining and loss of moisture. Behaviorally they do every thing they can to not lose bodily moisture.

All the soaking and baths(holy moly, what has this world come to) will not solve this problem. It simply changes its direction, now instead of impactions, you can have some lovely uric acid crystals forming in the kidneys and related ductwork.

Please look into why your monitor is dehydrated, the above, is only the most common cause, not the only cause. Good luck with your monitor, FR"
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Speaking of moisture I hade to make some changes as my sand mix was drying to fast, the photo shows how my uromastyx are behaving under the flat stone, the darker part shows higher humidity levels, as can be seen they choose to burry there heads past the dry sand, this says a lot, to me it meant some changes needed to be don, therefore I mixed my sand with top soil, Il see how it hold moisture in the next week.
rgds

Robyn do you feed insects or rodents? aim only asking because a friend sugested they may eat them at breeding time?

The respiratory system of Uros is adapted to experience very low relative humidity at daytime, whereas at night in their burrows they experience and need higher humidity.
This change seems to be important for lontime health. Constant drieness on the long run can lead to URI in Uros as well as constantly too high humiditiy.
The latter also easily causes scale rot and scale mycosis.
Hence excellent ventilation in combination with (moderatley) moist resting places is needed to safely prefent URI and other humiddity related problems in Uros.
Hence extremely low relative air humidity does not only not matter, but is recommended in an Uro cage.
At the same time it is essential to provide a "burrow" or resting box with moderately moist substrate for resting.
In a normal sized enclosure this is not easy to achieve by just using moderately moist dirt. This often results in too high relative air humidity.
Hence for normal sized enclosures I recommend a solution consisting of tubings and hide boxes, initially completely sand filled so that the Uros have to dig out their burrows.
A plastic hide box located at the end of a long tunnel several feet away from the tank can hold a healthy night humidity without interrfering with the overall low humidity in the Uro tank.
With respect to impaction: Robin once said a healthy monitor can pass a doorknob......even though exaggerated, this hits the point. Healthy animals do never suffer from impaction on any substrate. The most widespread cause of impaction is insufficiant mineral supplementation (often caused by bad Ca/P ratios) which drive the lizards to try to overcome the problem by eating substrates, which potentially harbour minerals.
Since common tank substrates don´t contain enough minerals, this normally ends up with fatal impaction.

Thats my 2 cts

Ci@o

Ingo

Thanks for your posts, Ingo.

I find them very well-thought-out and well stated.

I also happen to agree with your conclusions. It makes a lot of sense to me.

I'm not going to say anything against the dirt-substate debate, I believe everyone has the right to do what they think is right.

I just wanted to let you know that some of us appreciate and approve of the opinions expressed by people like Ingo and Debb and others, as well. It's important to look at all sides of a story before making a decision.

Keep up the good work, everyone who posts their opinions, and especially those who have done the research to back them up.

Thanks!
Nicki
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Nicki and...

1.0.0 Liasis mackloti savuensis (Savu python) - Baz
0.0.2 Uromastyx geyri (Saharan Uromastyx) - Dragon and Little One
1.1.0 Uromastyx dispar maliensis (Mali Uromastyx) - Spike and Lizzy
1.0.0 Lampropeltis mexicana thayeri (Variable (Thayer’s) Kingsnake) - Kavi
0.0.1 Lampropeltis triangulum campbelli (Pueblan Milksnake) - Callia
0.2.0 Thamnophis sirtalis parietalis (Red-Sided Garter Snakes) - Spot and Fluffy

Ontario, Canada

Hi My name is Charlie
And I wanted to ask what do you both use for sub-straight in your cages? Thanks

Charlie

Charlie,

For the last three years I have used millet on all of my uromastyx over 6". Those under 6" I keep on brown Kraft paper.
To borrow a few of Robyn's words- all of my uromastyx appear very robust, beautiful, and healthy.

I have a healthy (in my opinion) growth rate which I feel is neither excessive nor slow, no hydration problems, no shed issues, no disease, great socialization between uros, consistent fecal output with limited uric acid and enough clear fluid to reconfirm that there are no hydration issues. My uros are active approx 80% of the current 14 hours of light. I do not have glass dancing (unless totally changing the substrate and disturbing their environment or after acquiring a new uro ) nor have I ever seen any of my uromastyx attempt to burrow- even when my millet was too deep. Without brumation all of the females that I attempted to breed, with the exception of one, are gravid. The first clutch of geryi eggs were laid a week ago and produced 11 out of 13 fertile eggs. The eggs all have a nice (not too thin) shell and are doing terrific a week into incubation.

I have been very happy with the results from using millet and not because it is 'easier' for me to use. I have been in this hobby for a long time and have had absolutely no problem changing substrate (as I have done many,many times) when something better came along. Right now, I believe that millet is the best choice for my uros based on the results I have personally witnessed with my uros for the last 3 years.

Hi debb_luvs_uros

Thanks a million.
I have my set up for my new pair of Red Saharan and that is what I am using. White Millet wild bird seed. The person I am getting them use it as well. What do you have in Uromastyx's? I am looking for a pair of Rainbow uro's.

Charlie

Sorry, no rainbows

I keep mostly geryi- red and yellow. I have a trio of mali's but did not breed them this year. Also have a few young ornates but I have decided not to pursue breeding with ornates for a variety or reasons.
I plan to pick up 6 more uromastyx in the near future but I haven't decided on the species yet. I would love to get my hands on some bandeds or U. d. dispar but that has proven to be a difficult task.

Let me know if you need any help with acclimating the geryi.

Thanks Debb

I will do that.

Take Care
Charlie

Debb,
I have been wanting to ask you, and now that you specifically mention Geyri I've just got to ask. I have recently lost two yellow Geyri I purchased from a well known, reputable breeder. Two other people who purchased some from the same show have lost theirs as well. I have sent my latest in for a necropsy, more money!! Ugh! But even the breeder doesn't seem to know what is wrong, he has lost a lot as well. I had all the right temps, had them on playsand, with moist hides and a small dish of drinking water, all the right supplements. They were doing well, then crashed. How do you keep yours? I have since replaced my male with a young red male from the same breeder, and don't want to lose him too. Any suggestions? So far he seems fine.
Thanks,
Beth

Beth,

In my opinion, geryi are more difficult to acclimate than some of the other wc species. Although I do not keep any, I understand that Benti are similar in this regard.

One of the reasons I am told that geryi may have more problems acclimating is that it is possible they might be more susceptible to some mycoplasma than other species. It has also been discussed that they may harbor some specific mycoplasmas that others do not commonly carry some of which may infect the digestion/intestinal tract. One specific organism thrown about has been Rickettsia. I however, am not convinced that this is an issue.

Unfortunately, I am unable to confirm or rule out any of the information I have just given you on mycoplasmas. I am just passing on some statements and concerns that I have been made aware of.

Some geryi that crash and burn exhibit symptoms very similar to adenovirus but no viral inclusions have been found (that I am aware of) in the tissue or organs upon necropsy in uromastyx. I sometimes wonder if it isn’t an adenovirus type infection that has been overlooked.

Stress from importation and shipping (most any stress with geryi) can throw the animal off course. A newly shipped or imported geryi will often just stop eating and this can spiral into a suppressed appetite, loss of the natural gut flora, and a whole host of other problems. New keepers often start pumping in parasite medication which may add to this downward spiral. One thought is that mycoplasma may play a role in the original loss of appetite while another is the personality of the species and their handling of stressors.

It sounds as if you might be dealing with more than an acclimation issue Beth.

If you are battling disease or illness, the typical acclimation protocol may help but will probably not do it alone. Professional help will be needed as well.

I am not certain if you are looking for acclimation tips or opinions on what may have happened to your first two geryi. If the latter is the case, I am certain that the pathologist will be the best help in finding the answer.

I am curious on how long you had the first two geryi and if there were any signs or symptoms of illness exhibited? How long were they doing ‘well’ and what does well mean as far as eating, activity, and fecal appearance?

If you are looking for acclimation tips, let me know and I will post a few thoughts on geryi.

We all got our Geyri at a show in December 2003. For the first two months my animals were gaining weight, up to 4 grams, then the male stopped eating and started losing weight. The only symptom he showed was a very "deep" breathing, really expanding his lungs and compressing them very tightly. No nasal discharge, eyes clear. Normal stools. I noticed he woke up as soon as the heat lights came on and was basking hours before my other uro's, all Mali's. After treating him as if he had a respiratory infection, he improved and began gaining weight again and eating normally. Then he suddenly crashed, and wasted away, despite tubing. I had used Nutribac, and Pedialyte, along with baby food to tube him. My female, after the male died, started showing the same "deep" breathing symptoms, again, no discharge of any kind, and stopped eating. Within a couple of weeks she died suddenly, not having lost much weight at all. That's when I found out the my vet had also bought three Geyri from the same show, and had lost 2 and was losing the third in the same way. And a friend who bought another pair, at the same show, is a long time experienced zookeeper, specializing in reptiles, and hers weren't looking very good either.
So my questions are twofold: Is there something different Geyri need from other Uro's as far as acclimating and habitat? And yes, if anyone else has had the same problems with Geyri, perhaps we can all gather up our info and find out what needs to be done to insure the survival of these animals? I have noticed over the past year that there have been numerous losses of Geyri, and can't help but wonder what is wrong here! I know I have done a lot of study, but can't find much on Geyri. And I have spent a lot of money trying to have the best habitat for them. Info is needed, and I gather even the more experienced breeders need more info as well.
Thanks for any and all help.
Beth

My adult Uros inhabti an enclosure of approx 6,5 x 5,5 feet.
Originally I tried to provide a high layer of a sand/Clay mixture to allow them to dig tunnels.
But the required amount and weight was enormous.
Then I first ended up with seperating a thrid of the tank and fill it with 1 ft of this mixture and fill the rest with just a thin layer.
This still menat that I had to carry 400kg of substrate.
I found out that 1 ft was far from being deep enough and that the self digged tunnels were hard to control.
Finally I completely replaced the sand clay mixture by a only 6" layer of a mixture of play sand and dune sand, added several large rockpiles forming caves and most importantly attached several tubings of different length to the tank which end in easily controllable hide boxes.
I initially filled the whole tubing/boxes system with sand and the Uros digged out the tunnels themselves. One hide box is filled with moderately moist bark mulchm, the others are filled with very moderately moisrt sand.
For hatchlings I use a 10" layer of a clay/sand mix in which they dig tiny tunnels. If I feel the need to control them, its not much efforts to break the hidings open and the babies rapidly dig new ones.

Hope that helps

Ingo

Sorry for the typos,
I was in a hurry.
To add: besides a lot of other lizards from various families, I just keep one adult pair of Uromastyx acanthinura nigriventris, which both are very healthy, agile and luckily prolific.
This years clutch is still to come, but the female already is quite plump and I am expecting eggs within the next 4 weeks.
Normally she lays 9 to 13 eggs.

Ci@o

Ingo