Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hi; i've not posted to this forum before, as i usually hang out at the tortoise board so i can talk and learn more about my scaly baby, "junior."

but i thought that i would try and use this board as a resource, if any of you frog-knowledgable people would be so kind as to help me by telling me what pacman frogs need as minimum housing requirements.

see, today i went into my local petsmart. generally this location seems to have at least a few brain cells rattling around in their heads as far as the conditions under which they keep their animals go, so i don't mind shopping from them. however, today, i saw that, in TINY BETTA CUPS (not much larger than a dixie cup), they were housing young pacman frogs. the frogs would have room to perhaps turn around in these cups, but that'd be all the moving they could do.

i addressed this concern to the manager, and she pretty much looked at me like i had a booger hanging out of my nose and told me that "they don't move." well, i'm fully aware that pacman frogs aren't the friskiest pets on the market, but surely they need to at least be able to move should they choose?

i wrote down their consumer complaint number, but i wanted to try you guys first. am i overreacting? or should they at the very least, even when babies, housed in those small critter-keeper type things so they can at least crawl around if they want? at least they were in moist mossy-looking substrate, but i'm worried about the little guys.

thanks in advance!

Hi
THis is my first time posting but I have lots of experience w/ pet stores and pac mans. Sadly people assume that because the frog does not move a lot that they are happy or at least ok to be in a small container. Many pet stores do have them in relatively small containers such as 2.5 gallon critter carriers as these frogs cannot be placed together in a larger aquarium like most frogs. However... a dixie cup is WAY to small. The frog would be sitting in its own waste for who knows how long as I am assuming that they do not clean out the cups very often. There's not a whole lot you can do about it but maybe appeal to the manager by presenting her with important details such as the ones I have given above but also tell him/her that as a pet store they have a reasponsibility to present to the public a reasponsible way to care for these animals. By placing them in cups they give their customers the idea that its ok to do this. The recommended sized tank for a pacman is 10 gallons which most people won't take seriously if they see them in dixie cups. Although the pet store may not have the time and space to make seperate 10 gallon tanks for thier frogs they can at least set up the critter carriers as miny models of what the tank should look like ie: a little pool to soak in on one side, with mulch and moss to bury in on the other.

... for your quick and informative reply! the manager herself seemed not to give a fig either way, but i'm going to call petsmart's consumer complaint line and (calmly, of course) voice my concerns. they might not do a damned thing, but i have to try... i love animals, and it bothers me to see them mistreated like those little guys.

I have a question here. Where did the minimun recommended space requirement cited here come from? In some of the literature large adults are kept in 12 quart rubbermaid tubs long term (with foam rubber as a substrate). That is a significant difference in volume than is found in a ten-gallon aquarium (with a slightly greater floor space).
One of the issues with these frogs is that they are extreme ambush predators. In the wild they do not move from a location as long as there is sufficient food available (which is what should occur in proper captive care). Even then they do not tend to move significant distances looking for a new hunting spot. They do not have the flight reaction that causes many other frogs to smash into the side of an aquarium of the lid of the enclosure. Because of this this genus does well in what appear to be overly small enclosures.
To see if this may be inappropriate this is the first question I have.
What is the size of the frog in question here?

Ed

Interesting.

I was also in a PetSmart the other day (Woodland Hills, CA) that had the same situation: Froglets in snap-top plastic cups. Even one of the employees seemed to be worked up about it.

They're small... nickel-to-quarter size at best... and they seemed to be eating readily. Humidity looked good, and the soil was moist, but not damp. They have enough room to turn around and even move a bit (for the smaller ones)...

I'm (personally) not sure about the enclosures. They *seem* ok for short period of times... but if they're not sold soon, I might go in myself, grab a 10 gallon, and stick 5 or 6 frogs in it (they're all the same size, so interspecies cannibalism shouldn't be a problem if I keep 'em fed).

yea i saw the same thing here in a petsmart in northern va. looks like a national issue, and to get them all changed then you will have to contact the national database. try giving some housing alternatives and maybe they will accept one and give it a try. anyways hope you the best.

Okay this sounds like it may be inappropriate for more than a couple of days (temporary housing). I suspect these are the same containers in which the frogs were originally shipped to the store (but if it is kept clean it may be hard to apply cruel to the argument.)
I would suggest that discussing with the various powers that be that these set-ups may reduce sales as it is difficult to observe the frogs and may increase mortality in the long run (loss of profits is often a better tack to initially take with many stores than starting with a crusade).

Ed

It actually is the easiest way to house froglets until they can be moved out. Many breeders use this method, as do wholesalers. Makes an easy and convenient way to store large amounts of small frogs in containers that can either be cleaned easily or tossed out. I would think that if they do not sell rather quickly, though, that they should be moved to a new, more accomodating tank. I do not agree, however, with keeping these frogs in a tank under 10 gallons (or equivalent floor space) as even despite their nature as ambush predators, mine still do shift positions rather frequently while not brumating.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Which is different than the observations I've had with these frogs. At work I've kept them in enclosures with a floor space as large as four feet by five feet and had the frogs not move from a location for literally weeks at a time.

Ed

One thing to take into consideration is how long these frogs will be at the store. Pet stores are temporary places for animals, not permenant homes. Cage size is not as important as temperature, humidity and water quality in temporary conditions. The actual size of the container a horned frog is kept in needs to be large enough so that waste doesn't build up too quickly (small container = higher concentration of waste)and large enough for the frog to thermoregulate it's body temperature. If this can be accomplished in a deli cup, which is doubtful, then the frog should be fine. The largest thing I would worry about is customers assuming that a horned frog can permanently kept in a container that size, not that the needs of the frog wouldn't be met. Call the manager, sound angry and upset and maybe even print out a few of these posts for them and you might get a response or even change the conditions that the frogs are being kept in. Good luck,
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Devin
devin@amphibiancare.com
www.amphibiancare.com
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Hi there:

Its terrible, and I even think its terrible to keep a betta in such a small area. At my local Petsmart, I purchased a sick baby Western ribbon snake in hopes that I could recue it. I was extremely shocked at how insecure the cages are there. While in the tank, the small snake slithered over a gap in the wall about 3 inches thick that they figured it couldn't get over, and ended up in a box of corn snakes that struck it repeatedly. I also noted a green tree frog in with a hermit crab, and walked by a leopard gecko that had found its way out of its enclosure, and was sitting beside a Goliath bird-eating tarantula, or some large species like that. I complained, and the manager said she didn't care. She said that they ship them by putting a few in bags, folding the bags up, and putting them inside boxes.

DAVE

The 10 gallon reference is a general consensus amoung many people that keep these frogs as pets. However, there are exceptions... namely people who breed these animals and/ or hobbyists with limited space. I do agree that they are frogs that don't need a lot of space but there are also instantces of these frogs being runted or in poor health due to not enough space. I myself have one in a 5 gallon (he's a baby) and find that he changes his spot weekly at least though not more then that. I have no problems w/ experienced knowledgable people keeping these frogs in space under 10 gallons as long as the frog is the appropirate size and it does not create such problems as runting but the pet store at least should present a more reasponsible husbandry towards these frogs as most people are not exerpienced hobbyists and will assume that whatever the pet store provides as an environment is adaquate (sp?)

I was curious as I had not seen any literature representing the recommendations and I don't mind the ten gallon reference but if someone wanted to provide optimum space then I would prefer a slightly lower enclosure with more floor space based on the size of the animal. When I reared more than one or two of them at a time, I used to use the old plastic hexagonal betta tanks as these were large enough for the littlest frogs to do well. I would move them up in size as needed and I would sell/give away the ones that didn't fit my ideal until I was down to a couple of frogs.
I had a male that lived for over eight years in a 5.5 gallon aquarium but I've also had females that were so large that they would have been cramped in a ten gallon aquarium (these were big enough to eat 1 frozen thawed small rat once a month (this was their own agenda, they refused all food outside of that but when they wanted to eat they would jump up at your body with a wide open mouth (they would ignore your hand and shoot for the torso) if you were not careful. So you had to have the food ready when you opened the lid on their cage (they were actually stolen from one of my old worksites. I hope who ever took them got a big surprise).

Ed

I guess this question of housing frogs is store to store. But if you are concerned you could suggest that they put them in critter cages. My local Petsmart has these pacman frogs in small critter cages. They have some room to move around a bit, it's moist and they can bury themselves well. This way they sell the frog and the critter cage. They have a care sheet folded and attached to each one so anyone buying the frog would know it will need a larger setup as the frog grows. The critter cage setup I thought was a good idea by someone at that store. They are cute and a quick sell as I found out first hand last week when my daughter just had to have one. We have already moved ours to a 10 gal setup but the critter cage is nice to have on hand.

To file a complaint with petsmart corporate headquarters. I've worked at petsmart for a year now (please don't shoot me) and you just can't get through to them unless customers make complaints. When the pac mans first came in in betta cups I was horrified to learn that it was now "corporate policy" to keep them that way. It took a couple of weeks of constant complaining and lecturing and telling every customer I talked to to write letters before I finally got them switched into divided 10 gallons. I almost got fired over this. I take the best possible care of the animals there and finally won the debate of getting the beardies and leos off of calci-sand. Don't even get me started on that crap. The new animal care manager doesn't know squat about proper care of animals and it's draining having to constantly go against her on everything. I guess I just wanted to show you guys that some pet store employees actually know what they're talking about and will have the guts to admit when they don't. Although we are few and far between. But, I still work for an evil corporation and I guess that makes me a horrible person, I don't know but I do the best I can for the animals with what I have to work with. So once again I plead with you to write as many letters as possible, maybe things will change.
-Nicky

"Procrastinate now, don't put it off". -Ellen Degeneres
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What in God's name have you done?
Stick your arm for some real fun
So your sickness weighs a ton
And God's name is smack for some
-Layne Staley/Jerry Cantrell

Good post. I believe that a store is as good as its employees. You may have just fixed one store, but it is a start. By the way..Godsmack...great song. Gotta love the AIC! Glad I found someone else that knows something other than Rooster haha.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

Burgundy baby, With your blue eyed soul, You play the hits and I'm on that roll, Capricorn sister, Freddie Mercury, Jupiter Child cry

Thanks. That makes me feel a bit better. Alice is one of my favorite bands, been a fan for almost 10 years. I cried for days when Layne died. If you ever want to talk animals or music email me at bleedthefreak6702@yahoo.com. Later.
-Nicky
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What in God's name have you done?
Stick your arm for some real fun
So your sickness weighs a ton
And God's name is smack for some
-Layne Staley/Jerry Cantrell