Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi Guys;

Posted this forum awhile back about my Indigos seeming to be off their food, well most everyone is fairly regular again except an adult female I purchased a couple months back. She ate 1 med. rat her 1st week here, all she's eaten since is about 6 live mice & she seems only interested in killing those but she will eat them. Offered her live mice last week & she just ignored them. The humidtiy is about average in her cage, warm end is at 80 to 82 cool end of her cage is 75. She has a HUGE hide box full of damp moss, the cage is about 3.5 X 6 feet. She has a basking light on the warm end where she'll bask during the day on a log, seems active & contented enough... she just WON'T take food, dead OR live.

Have tried mice, rats, fish only thing I haven't tried yet is day old chicks. I'm starting to get really stressed out about this now..... she's not visibly sick has maybe lost 8 ounces off her original 9.5 lbs when she got here. I was told by the guy that sent her to me she likes it when you shake the prey on the thongs, she does kinda look at it but that's it. She came to me in excellent condition but was shipped in early January in the midst of a real cold snap. I was also told she had no access to natural light before just timed full spectrum light.

How long has anyone else adults went off their food for, I have a Brazilian Rainbow Boa that went 5 months but I'll be a total basket case if this girl soon don't start eating something.

Is there ANYTHING I can do for this girl, it's starting to keep me awake at night now worrying about it. ANY suggestions at all I'll try anything... Doug, Fred, Dean???..... Help

Thanx

Dean Goudie

What are the odds that she's got some eggs (unfertile) inside and ready to go?

Doug T

Sometimes they do that. It doesn't necessarily mean anything is drastically wrong with her. As Doug pointed out, she may even just have eggs in her. Sometimes I think they just do it because they know it bothers you. Sometimes, I think they may be holding out for a particular kind of food...she may snap up the chicks and never look back. Here's another thing to try. Try getting some live rat pups. I know they are small and you have to feed her a bunch of them, but if she'll eat them 8 or 10 rat pups is better than nothing. Usually once they take a meal, they are no problem after that with any kind of food. Indigos seem to LOVE rat pups as well as chicks and fish. I had a big male that went off feed for a couple of months...had me worried sick. Then one day, I was feeding some juvies with live rat pups and one of them was in shed (the snake, not the rat pup), so I took that rat pup (just for the heck of it) and held in in front of him with a pair of tongs and he nearly knocked the tongs out of my hand grabbing it. I stood there and fed him 11 of them one right behind the other. After that, he took whatever I offered him and I haven't had a feeding problem with him since.

she's definitely NOT gravid has only seen a male through the glass. OR can they produce infertile eggs without the boyz same as chickens??? I have tried live rat pups & even pinkies just to see if I'll get a response.... so far the fish I've tried are smelt, capelin & trout. Today I'll go down to the docks where the Lobster fishermen hang out to see if I can get some bait herring..... I used that before on my babies left it out in the freezer so it went real skanky smelling... took me a couple hours to get the smell off my hands but the little black wonders LOVED it.

Will let you know what happens......

Dean

You might try f/t Frog Legs.

I buy them at the supermarket $3.50, U.S. A pound.

It is only given as a treat. I don’t have any picky eaters and have never had one refuse a frog leg.

It may spark that internal desire to eat.

Dann…

You might go to the pet store and get some gold fish. Ask the others and see what they say on that. Personaly I hav'ent had to much trouble with mine so I may be talking out my ***. But I have had other snakes go off feed, and the more stuff I poked at them, the worse the problem seemed to get. Until,......
I stopped poking stuff at them and left them alone for a few days. I mean completely alone! I put the cage someplace realy quiet, because, believe it or not, they CAN hear. Then cover the glass and screen parts with a towel,or sheet or something like that. Just be careful of the heat source!!! Make sure she is absoluteley isolated, almost like Quarentine. Make sure she can't see or hear anything ,but the inside of her cage, and a basking light. Thats it! no peeking either. Leave her alone! It is important that she have NO stimulation what so ever for at least three days! If not five! Sometimes they just want to be left alone, like us. Now only try and offer food every other day, and only for a few minutes at a time. When she gets hungry enough, she will eat. BUT>>>>> ,...the battle is not yet won.

Once she feeds, wait one or two days after a bowel movement. Then offer food again. If she isn't hungry, wait a couple more days. Eventualy, she will get back with it again, and when she does, you can gradualy increase the amount of stimuli by slowly pulling back the covers, an inch or two a day, over a period of a week or so, until the cage is completely exposed. Then another couple weeks to move her cage back to it's origional location. Or maybe not. That may be the problem. Sometimes we put the cages in places where we want them, wich is not always best. Noise, vibration, people, other animals etc. Often times they get over stimulated or something "spooks" them and it takes a little TLC to get them back into the swing of things.

Now,...that is by no means the absolute law! BUT,... it has worked for me in the past. I think, and I hope it will work for you. If she begins to lose weight, get a fecal sample if you can, but get her to the vet. Here is a website to help you find a herp vet in your area. www.arav.org It is the Association of Reptile and Amphibian Veteranarians. They have a link which will help you find one in your area. Or if you still have trouble, e-mail me and I will try and find one for you.

But remember this,... sometimes even our best efforts and intentions cannot circumvent what mamma nature has decided. It might make us feel all kinds of stuff, I know, but sometimes there just isn't anything we can do. I don't think it will come to that, but,...well,...nuff said. Just relax you can only do what you can do. The rest is up to her and God. Good luck,
Tony.

There are stories of indigos who have not been around males for YEARS producing eggs. Recently there have been "virgin" burmese pythons producing fertile eggs... CLONES.

I don't necesarrily think that she's got eggs going. It's just a thought to consider that is within the realm of possibility.

I hope she's ok.

Doug T

>>she's definitely NOT gravid has only seen a male through the glass. OR can they produce infertile eggs without the boyz same as chickens??? I have tried live rat pups & even pinkies just to see if I'll get a response.... so far the fish I've tried are smelt, capelin & trout. Today I'll go down to the docks where the Lobster fishermen hang out to see if I can get some bait herring..... I used that before on my babies left it out in the freezer so it went real skanky smelling... took me a couple hours to get the smell off my hands but the little black wonders LOVED it.
>>
>>Will let you know what happens......
>>
>>Dean

Clones being born from virgins? Thats amazing stuff!!! Sounds like Jurasic Park! Life always finds a way!

How would you all react to clones of indigos weather man made or spontainiously occurring like the burms? Whats everyones opions? Just currious.
Tony.

or "virgin birth" is what this is referred to, and all of the offspring are females with a haploid number of chromosomes, so they are exact duplicates of their mothers, much like clones.
There are several species which reproduce in this manner exclusively.
There are also, documented cases of such occurring with humans. The first of which was documented by Dr. William Pancoast during WWII, involving a teenage girl in Germany.

I haven't seen any documentation of confirmed occurrences of parthenogenesis in Indigo Snakes, although I have seen anecdotal reference to it several times. I have heard of what I would consider relatively reliable accounts of female Indigos retaining sperm and producing viable eggs 2 or 3 years after the last contact with a male, even when that mating also produced offspring in the season when the mating occurred.

I too, am unaware of any such incidence occurring within Drymarchon, but since there are documented cases of such, within other genus, I am certain anything is possible.
Sperm retention is also well documented, as there was a female Python regius maintained within the New York Zoological Park, which produced a clutch of viable eggs five years post copulation with a male many years ago. The incident was not considered a parthenogenic event, since the hatchlings were of both male and female gender. I have only heard of such incidents occurring within Drymarchon, but the information appeared to be quite valid.

>>or "virgin birth" is what this is referred to, and all of the offspring are females with a haploid number of chromosomes, so they are exact duplicates of their mothers, much like clones.

I am no expert on snake sex determination or chromosome complements, but don't snakes use the ZW system of chromosomal sex determination (where a ZZ animal is male and a ZW animal is female)?

If so, how could a female snake (the heterogametic sex = ZW) be produced as a haploid individual? Do they just get the W chromosome? Is that a viable option?

That would be equivalent to a male human having just a Y chromosome and no X. That is not possible as the X chromosome carries essential genes. I would be surprised to hear that the Z chromosome isn't otherwise essential.
-----
Chris Harrison

Well guys further to what we discussed the past few days re; my female & Doug putting out the possibility that she may be gravid..... I don't know if I'm starting to imagine things BUT she took a day old chick this past Saturday. Of course I've been checking to make sure she's kept it down etc. Today she didn't come out to ly underneath the light, I took her out tonight & she seems fat, her ventrals seem to be somewhat raised & she just looks plump for a snake thats eaten practically NOTHING in the last 3 months. Maybe it's my overactive mind telling me this S#1T BUT now I'm worried. Has ANYBODY out there ever experienced this kinda thing before where an un-bred Indigo produced a clutch of eggs. She is a HUGE girl so I'm not panicing about egg binding. There is another factor coming into play here tho...... until now she's never been exposed to natural light her cage is only a few feet away from a window & she if definetly more active on sunny days.... Is it possible that the change in her enviornment & the introduction to natural light may have put her ovaries in production?? Apparently before she came to me she was eating a rat a week since I've had her she ate 1 rats the 3rd day i had her, ate 3 live mice about a month later & this week took a day oild chick.

I just want her eating & defecating lots like a normal Indigo should....... she's still got good muscle tone, is very alert but not really eating & FAT....... I'll have a path worn in the carpet from pacing after her next shed...... I have to get in touch with the guy who sent her to me to see if she was ever placed with a male, he DID have a male upto last winter. It died so thats why he sold me these two females.

Any suggestions???

Thanks
Dean

When I was a boy and kept an Eastern indigo he fed exclusively on bullfrogs. Worth a try? You know some frogs (leopard) are toxic.

I offered her a FT day-old chick & she grabbed it....... that was about 3 hours ago...... she settled under the heat lamp until it hit her stomach she seemed to bask there for an hour, then back into her hide box. I just now offered her another chick but she totally ignored it........ should I leave her alone for another day or so... or offer her more later???? At least thats something down in her & I'll sleep a little better tonight won't be fully contented until she's grabbing a couple rats a week.

Any advice will be greatly appreciated

Dean

Personaly, I wouldn't mess with her again until after she deficates. UNLESS she acts like she wants to be fed. When they want it, they generaly will let you know with their behaviour. You'll know. Remember,... the more you stress, the more you'll stress her. Take a deep breath, and be glad she ate something.
Tony.