Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is in responce to a post of the same title uploaded earlier this year at:

http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=322104,322104

As a veteran reptile show vendor for over a decade, I can say that I live for the kids! Not only do I find that their enthusiasm for reptiles rejuvenates my own, but they also represent my future revenues. Over the years I’ve seen many of them become my best customers and good friends. Time behind a table spent educating a kid and his or her parents is infinitely more rewarding than haggling price with a “serious herper” who is in full acquisition mode. I definitely think that reptile shows SHOULD be family friendly. That being said, I too have problems with the trend towards these events taking on a carnival atmosphere and I have a few pet peeves that I think should be more widely considered.

Kids in strollers are the first. As much as I love kids its my measured opinion that if the child is too young to control outside of a stroller its likely too young to be in a reptile show. I have a three and a half year old son who has yet to attend his first show. The reason he hasn’t gone is because of the nature of show environments. Even in the best shows this environment is reduced to one in which you have hundreds of people handling thousands of snakes and lizards. Ladies and gentlemen that's a lot of herp p00p and not much hand washing! Like it or not salmonella is an issue and sooner or later it’s going to bite us if we keep burying our heads in the sand. The standard is established that children under five should not even have “indirect contact” with reptiles. IMHO that standard is extreme however I think its safe to apply it to a reptile show. This issue comes down to parental control and there is little that a promoter can do to prevent young children from being brought into a show but banning strollers is as good a control measure as any.

Along these same ideals I think there is a problem with some promoters crossing a line and promoting these events as full-blown family affairs. Making them family friendly is one thing but having face paintings, pony rides and petting zoos only encourages the attendance of way too many very young children.

Speaking of petting zoos, they are my second peeve. I’m not talking about kids wanting to hold one of my snakes, I can use my judgment and control that. I’m talking about actual petting zoos with sheep, goats, RABBITS, guinea pigs, and whatever else the promoter can find. Initially I was pretty excited about the idea however, it only took one exposure to see the folly in the concept. It’s an almost universal experience to see several nutcases at a show walking through the crowd with a large boa or python draped around their attention-starved bodies. If this were not already risky, due to it being inherently stressful for the snakes, adding the scent of prey animals certainly compounds that risk many fold. To me, what is amazing is that we’ve yet to see a major feeding response bite at one of these shows. Mark my word, it’ll only take the media getting wind of a single such incident before we start seeing statewide bans on reptile shows, especially if the bite happens to a child! Talk to me then about how the carnival atmosphere promotes the industry.

My third and last (at least for this post) peeve is encouraging people to bring in their sick animals to be examined by the "show" vet. Again on the face of it a very neat idea until you start seeing people carrying around some really sick animals. To my view a “serious herper” wouldn’t expose thousands of otherwise healthy animals to their sick animals for an incomplete though free examination. Sorry but this too I see as a gimmick to increase the take at the door. It may come across as a service, but vets can just as easily promote herp welfare via veterinary care without seeing animals at the actual show. Even if such visit or “consultations were limited to healthy animals you’d still end up encouraging more of the nutcases mentioned earlier bearing big snakes. If this is happening at a show that also has a petting zoo you’ve got a real recipe for disaster.

I think that all to often, us serious herpers get tied up in the enthusiasm of these large events and delude ourselves into thinking that herps are becoming mainstream. I truly don’t think this is the case and shows that come across as a “day at the fair” only serve to trivialize the advances that have been made in our understanding of these fascinating animals. Herps deserve shows of their own. If a promoter can't come up with a better way to promote them than by making then the center-piece of a carnival perhaps they don't deserve our support.

Just my two cents.

As a serious herper, AND a mother of a nursing infant, I send a very loud raspberry your way for the stroller banning idea. Give me a break....
My children see my reptiles at home, why should they NOT attend a herp show? Pediatricians recommend that children nurse until they are a year old, and recognize health benefits in nursing until aged 2 or beyond. You can't leave your children at home when they're nursing! If a stroller can't fit into a herp show, then neither could a wheelchair. There had BETTER be room for both!

WOOT!!! "Mad props" to you. As a mother of 4, I totally agree.
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1.1 Ball Python 0.0.1 corn snake 1.0 Bearded Dragon
0.0.2 fish 1.2 cats 3.1 kids 1.0 husband and now...
0.0.1 Pink Zebra Beauty Tarantula
2.0 Solomon Island Boas

First off I did not set the standard of no “indirect contact for children under five.” In fact I think I posted my belief that the standard is extreme. I have two children under five at home but trust to my PERSONAL hygiene and husbandry practices to protect them. The question is, do I trust their health to the hygiene practices of hundreds and possibly thousands of herp enthusiasts at a show? At least for me the answer is no, the difference being that at home I have some level of control, at a show I have none, zero, zilch, nada.

Personally, I’m somewhat dismayed to hear that some are willing to take even suckling infants to a show but concede that balancing questions of a child’s health against a parent’s desire to attend a show is a personal matter. Unfortunately, the promoter’s of shows don’t (or shouldn’t) have the luxury of merely looking to satisfy their own desires and have to look at the bigger picture. You’ll note that nowhere did I endorse a ban on taking children into the shows however despite your well considered raspberry I heartily stand behind my original endorsement of measures that reduce the number of infants in attendance. As a simple matter of mathematics, fewer infants in attendance means less likelihood there will be cases of extreme infection with complications, which equates to less opportunity for officials to make some political hay by imposing outright bans on the shows themselves. Not long ago there was a spate of people infected with reptile related salmonella from a monitor exhibit at a zoo. Had this happened at a private reptile show you can bet that public health officials would have reacted very differently.

Oh, for crying out loud. What do the habits of other people at the show have to do with anything? They aren't touching my child! Bring a bottle of hand sanitizer, and problem solved--if my 3 year old shakes someone's hand, or someone lets him pet a snake, I can take care of it. My 6 month old isn't going to be touching ANYTHING.

I may be selling animals at a show down the road here, and I can tell you THIS much--people are NOT going to be putting their paws on my animals until they clean their hands--and even then, not unless they're seriously considering buying. I'm bringing an industrial sized bottle of hand cleaner with me.

If you're going to make that argument, then you should NEVER take kids to a supermarket, no way....they might touch something handled by someone who had been buying chicken!

Unbelievable attitude....
I take my kids camping, too...OOOOOhh....mosquito hazard! Not to mention ticks.
And fishing...they might pick up something from the water! Horrible!
Maybe they'd be safest if I just kept them inside, in a sterilized room, until they turn 18.

The level of risk to a child from attending a reptile show is absurdly low. A whole lot lower than the risk from going to the supermarket.

There is actually some research out there that suggests that kids who grow up around animals and "germs" in general (in the country, on the farm, etc)...grow into healthier children and adults...better immune systems, less likely to have a variety of illnesses. It doesn't take much imagination to see why this is the case.
Yes, each parent taking his/her kids to a reptile show, supermarket, zoo, farm...anywhere...needs to take responsibility for the health and well-being of his/her own. Unfortunately, not all parents are as responsible as they should be. But to ban kids (or even strollers) from the shows would simply be impractical and would just never fly.
That said, I think that the original post here was extremely well thought out and articulated. I don't agree with each and every point made, but I do agree with many of them, including the fact that we don't want to turn reptile shows into something else altogether (a "circus" for example), just to bring in the crowds. I am mighty glad that the All Ohio Show has not turned into one. And, yes, I bring both my boys when they want to go... ages 8 and 14. I have been bringing them since they were 5 and 11. Duffy

I think its you that has the incredible attitude. Transmision is not absurdly low as the provide link (one of many) illustrates.

You make your point that you take precautions but what about the non-herping parents that bring their kids to the show? These are the people that these family fun shows are bringing in. Do they know of the potential? Are the promoters posting signs or are they selling cotton candy?

Again I never said ban the kids just that I heartily endorse moves to limit the numbers of young children (infants really) at shows. The point was lets keep the shows as dedicated reptile events and not let them become a day at the fair!
Salmonella infection at zoo

My wife is a full time college student and also works part time as an LPN (RN in the next 3 weeks.woohoo) And with this hectic schedule she has she still maintains the ability to breastfeed, and that is with leaving the child at the grandparents for a large section of time, and I watch him the rest of the time. The excuse "a breastfeeding child has to be with mommy at all times" is complete bs. I do not mean to offend or insult you but it is a total and complete crap excuse. And another perfect example by someone that wants it there way or no way at all.

In my opinion as a father of 3 (A 4 year old, 2 year old and 2 month old) I think the herp shows should not allow smaller children to attend As I posted below on the original thread.
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com
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http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=322104,410959

its a good idea to read all responses to the original post to see how childish most of the responders were acting..

Later
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com
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First of all...Good one! LMAO indeed! The breastfeeding argument simply does not fly in the real world.

Second...I think there's got to be some middle ground between banning small children (ain't gonna happen anyway...also a reality!) and turning reptile shows into carnivals. As I said in my other post, the Ohio Show has managed (so far?) NOT to turn into a dog-and-pony show. Kids? Yes. You, as a vendor, get to decide if you will allow, for example, kids to handle your reptiles. YOU get to decide what is OK at YOUR table. A good friend of mine sets up at several shows, and he loves to educate the kids about his animals. HE gets to choose to do that at HIS table. That's what it's all about, my friend...YOUR right to choose NOT to allow kids to mess with your snakes, and MY right to choose to bring both my kids to the show if they feel like coming with me that day. And my friend's right to choose to spend his valuable time educating and generating interest in the next generation of herpers. Duffy

I'm just glad you're not in charge.
If I should happen to actually rent a table to sell hatchlings this fall, I'll be bringing both my children with me.

No one has come up with a good reason as to why I should NOT bring my kids with me to a show...all of the examples given assume that the parent isn't paying attention to what their children are doing, and that they're not observing proper sanitary measures.

Why should children be allowed to attend ANY animal show...whether it be reptiles, or dogs or cats? All of these animals can transmit salmonella.
God forbid we should have these animals in our own homes!

Your reasons are spurious. If you don't like children, that's fine. But banning infants...who never come in contact with the animals ANYHOW...is just ridiculous. It's the older children you should be watching out for--the 7 to 12 year olds who may be handling the animals away from their parents, and not washing their hands afterward. Not to mention ignorant adults! Have you forgotten about them? Just because they're over 18 doesn't mean they're immune to Salmonella.

But the obvious solution is to post some signs warning that if you handle a reptile, you should wash your hands immediately afterward--and ensure that people who are bringing large show animals such as adult burms, and allowing children (OR ADULTS) to pet them, enforce the handwashing rule.

Banning children is the LAST thing you should do.

I could pump breastmilk, sure. However, my pump is in storage. Why? Because I don't use it. I'm a stay-at-home mom, and I CHOOSE to spend all my time with children. That includes taking them with me, whereever I go. Including to the Colorado herp show, next month.

I am 100% unconcerned about the risk of salmonella to my 6 month old. She simply won't be able to touch anything at the show. I AM going to be watching my 3 year old like a hawk, because HE is the one who might actually touch something. He won't be in a stroller, after all. He is not, however, a grabby child. I can take him into the Hallmark store without having to watch out for the china. He's old enough to really get some enjoyment out of going, and seeing the critters along with me.

One of the cases mentioned in the link about contracting Salmonella from a guard rail was just about the stupidest thing I have ever heard of. I am picturing this situation, where people violate a guard chain, and actually come close enough to touch something that the animals can touch--KOMODO DRAGONS, for chrissakes...and I am appalled.
That is not about the dangers of contracting Salmonella--it's about the dangers of of people IGNORING the rules, and getting themselves hurt, as a result--and also about a zoo that isn't taking proper care to seperate the public from dangerous animals. Serves them right--both the zoo, if it was sued for negligence, and the people who got sick, for violating the rules.

I believe that herp shows should be more than just a place for dedicated collectors to haggle over prices. If it was going to be that, THEN IT SHOULDN'T BE OPEN TO THE PUBLIC AT ALL.
If you're holding a public event, selling animals to people who potentially know nothing about them, then it should be educational AND family-friendly. You WANT these people to LEARN about these animals--children as well as adults. And that includes learning about safe handling.
Otherwise, a parent may attend without their children, purchase an animal, take it home, and risk infecting their children because they don't understand the danger.
THAT is irresponsible. Don't cater to the ignorant by protecting them from themselves--EDUCATE THEM, so they can protect themselves.

Banning children from a reptile expo is only going to send the message that these animals are dangerous to children--MORESO than other animals. And that is distinctly untrue, and a very harmful message for the hobby to send to the public. I can see animals winding up in rescues (or worse) because a family expecting children decided to get rid of them. Overexaggerating the risks serves NO good purpose.

100% unconcerned hum!!!! Other than displaying a furious desire to preserve your right do as you please in this regard, you've demonstrated an uncanny ability to miss every other point of this discussion so I'm not going to waste my or your time further explaining it any further. Instead I'll share a single good reason for you to take and nurse your infant at shows, natural selection.

.....If you are feeding the kid near the great setup of cool cages and rack systems...and you hear some guy say, "NICE RACK!"
.........You really won't know what the hell he's talking about.

couldn't resist!!!!!!!!!!

id have to agree with you AND winged wolf. i agree on your part because small children touch there face with there hands and stuff them in there mouth alot and may have touched a salmonella infested herp.( i admit i do kiss my beardie but thats a different thing cuz neither of us are sick or anything. ) anyway, back to the subject. i also have to agree with w. wolf cuz young children should get used to herps and learn bout them. anyway, blablablablablablablablabla, weeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!

Hm...don't take this the wrong way, but don't kiss your beardie.

Reptiles can be completely healthy, and still carry salmonella bacteria in their intestinal tract.
(So, for that matter, can birds, dogs, and a wide variety of other household pets, which is something that most people conveniently forget, or more dangerously, don't realize).

I believe there is on case on record of a human being contracting pathogenic salmonella from another human being who was an asymptomatic carrier, lol!

There's also the fact, though, that your mouth bacteria and his aren't the same--his mouth is probably a lot cleaner than yours, potential salmonella aside, and the germs from your mouth could make HIM sick. Birds are susceptable to this, reptiles probably are as well--don't kiss him for his sake, as well as yours.

no, i dont mean she dosnt get sick from it. i dont get sick from it.

It hasn't happened yet...but it could.
Think about it carefully.