Reptile & Amphibian Forums

In every single book I read, people claim a ten gallon tank is sufficient for one leopard gecko. I housed mine in a ten gallon tank, and it looked horribly cramped.

My leo sometimes likes to walk around. Considering you need a water dish, and other dish for mealworms, and a hiding place, she had not enough room to just walk. She wanted out every single day and would go up on the glass and scratch the glass until I stuck my hand in there and she would walk on with great satisfaction.

I couldn't stand it any longer. So I bought her a 20 gallon tank. I could tell from the very beginning she was elated. Now I don't have to let her out daily-she has lots of leg room.

Whoever wrote a ten gallon tank is sufficient for a single leopard gecko is both cruel and crazy. They DO enjoy walking around, and my leo since giving her a 20 gallon tank has a much brighter disposition (eats better, doesn't act depressed, etc).

And these so-called experts who claim they don't move around much is an extremely stupid statement, because they do most of their walking at night.

Please do not believe a ten gallon tank is enough room. An adult in a ten gallon tank looks horribly cramped, and it is for the leo. They need to exercise and move around.

JadeFox

Many people have had different experiences than you. Keep in mind, this is just your opinion. Throwing out accusations like that, and calling people crazy and cruel isnt going to get you anywhere around here. Especially when you have no basis for your attack. If you have an opinion, there are much better ways of expressing it.

Actually LEOS are very intelligent creatures, and any intelligent creature does not like cramped spaces. How would you feel if you lived in a half a bedroom space for the rest of your life?

I've been letting my leo out everyday because of the cramped 10 gallon space-the exercise does her good.

I stand on what I say--it's very cruel to put a 8" lizard in a cramped 10 gallon tank. Those so-called experts are wrong saying it is okay to keep them in a 10 gallon tank. It's rather cruel.

I guarantee if anyone put their leo in a 20 gallon tank it will be much happier, that is, move around more, eat more, etc.

I also put a much larger hideaway log in there. She just climbs up and down on that over and over again. She is absolutely elated with the changes I made for her!

A 20 gallon tank is not at all expensive. I got mine for $30. Worth every penny to see her disposition so much improved.

JadeFox

you can't compare leos to humans. Give me ONE reason on why you can compare leos to humans. The only thing humans have in common in regards to evoloutionary history is our Phylum, Chordata. Which means that there is a nerve cord running down our backs. Why is it cruel to give an 8" lizard a 20" by 10" cage? i think its cruel to give a leo a habba hut (hideaway log) as a hide. My leo has never scratched at the glass. How can you who only has a single leo and never done any scientific tests tell me and the rest of the forum that a 10 gallon tank is cruel? i recently increased the temp of my leo cage around 10 degrees to around 100 hottest point and 90 coolest point during the day and 90 hottest point and 80 coolest point during the night. That has made my leo much more active, eating better, and more docile. I am not going to say "Temperature Myth" until i could prove that increasing the temp is better. Please PROVE to me with SCIENTIFIC data that a 10 gallon is cruel. I think a 10 gallon is a perfect size for a single leo. If a larger cage= healthier and happier leo, then how come Mr. Ron Tremper has produced some of the finest and healthiest leos out there yet he houses around 5 leos in a 16" by 22" cage? if you can give me scientific data that a larger cage produces healthier and happier leos then i will change my caging ways. Also how do you know when your leo is happy? do you have electrodes hooked up to the leos brain 24/7 to monitor brain activity? how do you know the leo likes being handled? have you talked to it? can you read its mind? do you have a brain monitoring system?
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

My image Gallery

amen to that whoever posted what im replying to...jadefox...no offense..but ur being hella offensive...i keep a 1.3 leopard geckos in a ten gallon and they've all bred and are in perfect helath...they have great personalities...eat well...and aren't depressed either...im no expert..but i know that many great breeders keep them in small spaces first of all because there is more contact with food...geckos naturally seek out cramped spaces to live in...and the reason that your gecko started scratching the glass was because it thinks that there is an outside where as he/she is actually is contained...providing a coverup or using a sterilite box prevents that confusion of illusion of an outside...IM NOT SAYING HOWEVER THAT GIVING THEM LAND TO ROAM is a bad thing...if you got the money and you got the time to clean a large tank...be my guest...but most people don't...i personally don't care that you are accusing people that keep them in 10 gallons but there are people that do get offended...it would be kinda ironic that you...ONE PERSON...are trying to disprove years of experience from other breeders...but notice that many people do this out of restricted space and time...and provided a gradual vertical supplementaion of climbing such as rock stacks made by naturezone many can thrive in a ten gallon...so be more curteous next time it comes posting...other than that...i'm happy that ur gecko is happy...good for you and good for him/her...

happy herping- eric chen

I agree with you guys... but i am talking to whoever posted the last forum. How would you like to be kept in a cage that has around 100 cubic inches of free space and you have to share it with 3 other geckos. that is around 25 cubic inches for your gecko. YOU GECKO CANT EVEN FIT IN 25 CUBIC INCHES IF IT ISNT CURLED UP. See this is what he is talking about... you are cruel. When you go to jail for something and your in your little cube sharing it with another person just be glad that you dont have 2 more people in there... Dont you think you would be cramped too. I dont see how you can say anything about this subject or dis jadefox like that when you are cramping up your geckos. how tall are you??? around 6 foot lets just say. alright so you have 736 cubic inches of free space. Now you have to share that with 4 people. So now you only have 184 cubic inches of your own free space. So please tell me now do you think your geckos are cramped??? Oh yeah and if you are shorter than 6 feet then you dont have 184 cubic inches... sorry.
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Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!! Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!

tell me how you can compare a leopard gecko to a human. I would really like to know, because you and some other people seem to think we are very closely related. A leopard gecko CAN fit into 25 cubic inches of space. An average leo is around 8" long, 1" wide, and 1" tall. That is 8 cubic inches. A human CANT fit into 184 cubic inches. The average human (average of man and woman combined) is 66" tall around 22" wide and 6" deep. That is 8712 cubic inches. You must have a lot of room for your geckos if you cage them in the same proportions you "Cage yourself". How big is its cage? 5' by 4 by 8'? or is that to inhumane for you? i mean you probably sleep in a 12' by 8' room, live in a 2500 sq foot house. Go to a 50000 sq foot school. Go to a 5 acre park. Play on a 35000 sq foot football field. So please tell me how big your leos cage is. I mean humans and leos are VERY similar seeing as how we share the same phylum. I mean leos live in 80-90 degree temps, and humans live in -20-120 degree temps.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

My image Gallery

You know those dumb writing prompts u got at school. Where u have focus and the other things and the highest u can get is 4. well guess what u just got a 0 because i was talking about how leos were cramped and your talking about how we arent...

To answer your other questions we are simular because WE BOTH NEED EXERCISE! you wouldnt be healthy w/o exercise. Neither would a leo... You cant just put your gecko out for 1 hour and expect it to have gotten its healthy exercise. also 25 cubic inches is mainly 5" by 5" you jsut said a average gecko is 8 inches. Hmmm can someone please tell me how a gecko can get exercise like that. Oh yeah it can go in circles i forgot... Hey why dont you spend your whole day ( their night ) running in circles i bet its fun. Did i answer your question or do you want another because i can keep supplying you with answers.

I noticed that you have a pacman frog. Have you ever went to a petstore and saw a pacman in those little dishes taht are like 5 inches by 5 inches. I bet you have why dont u take your leo out and put him in one of those because that is what the other kid is doing. so stop giving me [bleep] on this subject because you know your wrong and your just trying to twist this to make it look like your right.

IT IS CRUEL!
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Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!! Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!

Where did i say a leo could live in 25 cubic inches??? and 5" by 5" is 25 sq inches. You really need to learn your math. 8" by 3" by 1" is 24 CUBIC inches. So yes a leo can fit into 24 cubic inches, i never said they could live in one. Again if you give your leos cage to a similar proportion to what you "cage" yourself in what is the dimensions??
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

My image Gallery

do you keep 4 leos in one 10 gallon or 4 in their own 10 gallons?.....4 in one is DEFINITELY not right....I hope you mean 4 in their own 10 gallons
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.

Actually my leo is quite happy. The key is DONT PUT BIG HIDES IN... and my leo would eat until she exploded. I'd say she has more than 150 cubic inches... Anyways i am getting a 29 gallon tank for her as soon as my friend gets a 40 gallon breeder for his uro.

I do think a 10 gallon tank is suitable for a leo as long as you let him/her out for atleast 1 hour.
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Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!! Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!
Leopard Geckos ROCK!!!

I agree with you that a 10 gallon is too small. I believe a 20 gallon is cramped as well. An 8 inch lizard should have more ground space, but that is just my opinion. I believe most books about exotic animals tell more to sell the animals than the well being.

The whole rack system for any animal too me is just wrong. I wouldn't want someone keeping me in closet 24-7 with other people in closet size enclosures all around me. Most people honestly don't have the room to house 10 geckos. I have 1 in a 10 gallon long right now and I know it is too small. I am going to look at getting a 50 gallon customed as to not being 16 inches high and spreading out the floor space.

I was a keeper of burms in the past and you will see cage sizes for them and people say a 6ft by 3ft will be okay for an adult...what crock.

Again I think this is a sticky issue because most people use cages that are too small..but feel they are okay. I think the bigger the better.

Matt

To big will cause stress. Especially moving the gecko from a 10 gallon to a 50. A 50 gallon could house 3-5 adults fairly comfortably in my opinion.. I agree Im not a fan of racks either. And also as a X burm keeper I know exactly what you are talking about some people thing that cage size can fit a pair of monsters!!!! Ya right you open the cage and before u can get near it you have a 5inch wide head staring you down.. In that case bigger cage would be better.

Reptiles LOVE racks...they are quiet, secure (they really don't want to watch you go about your daily business) and sterilite tubs can be just as large as tanks.
A sweater box has as much floor space as a 20 gallon tank.

Reptiles LOVE racks...

How exactly did you inquire that info? Did they tell you this? Would you rather have a apartment with 1 window facing a brick wall or a apartment facing a park? I agree racks are secure and quite but would you like to be in the dark 24-7-365? It's not like that for them in the wild. I think you love racks because you may have them and they save you space and easy to clean blah blah blah the tank/rack/cage is for the animals comfort not yours. Just my 2 cents.

You're comparing leos to people here...REALLY REALLY bad comparison!! They DO like it dark 24/7/365...they're nocturnal...they usually don't come out during the day unless that's when you feed them or they're the "exceptions to the rule". They like it dark and secure...they're not sunlight loving creatures...
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.

Untrue.
I like racks because I have researched them. The animals in the rack do not spend their time up at the front, gazing out at the world. They spend it in the back, in their hide box, happily feeling secure.

Do not anthropomorphize!!! Yes, reptiles have feelings, but they aren't the same as ours, because their NEEDS aren't the same as ours. If you understand their instincts and their behavior, then you can understand their feelings. Because YOU would feel claustrophobic in a rack, does not mean that THEY do. I considered whether racks were ethical, just as you have....the difference is, I looked into it in depth.

People use racks for reasons OTHER than convenience. They use them because the animals kept in them are healthier--they eat better, they grow better, they experience fewer illnesses, and they breed better.
Why? Because they are less stressed--they are "happier".

Reptiles are not warm-blooded creatures. Their bodies are designed to maximize efficiency. They conserve energy. If they have food, water, secure shelter, and proper heat, they are ecstatic. The last thing they want to see is your ugly mug in front of them (imagine how horrible we must look to a reptile, lol...). They don't want to see the birds, they don't want to look at the squirrels, and they're not interested in watching what's going on. Those things are scary, stressful, and unpleasant. They would rather be alone, with plenty of bugs to eat, in a nice quiet, secure place.

They DO need a certain amount of room to roam, or they'll be stressed by that, as well. A sweater box gives as much floor space as a 20 gallon tank, and it doesn't have that unpleasant view of the big scary creatures called humans going about their business on all sides of it.

Like a burrow or a rock overhang, it provides shelter from predators such as raptorial birds and foxes. It's a wonderful place, for a nocturnal lizard. You may not like it, but THEY love it. If they could find a place that mimicked it in the wild, that is where they would live.

A reptile wants security, food and room to hunt it, water, warmth, and a mate.
It most decidedly does NOT want you. It does not want to see you, or anyone else. It doesn't want to watch the birds through the window. It doesn't think they're pretty or cute. It thinks they are scary, potential predators, or competitors, something it could live without. It may get used to you, but it doesn't LIKE you. It's not a dog or a cat. It's not a mammal, prone to running off energy out of an instinct to keep in shape...its metabolism wants to conserve, not expend in a fit of exuberance.

If you are going to keep these creatures happy, you have to understand THEM--understand them for what they ARE, not for what you WANT them to be.

Great job! Well thought out, and full of great info. PLEASE post here more often!
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Sam
Gecko Den
Email Me

great sermon...they should have a gecko church...preach the truth and good news brotha...hallelujah...Praise the Gecko...i feel the HERPY SPIRIT come over me...also write a book so we can meditate on that too....

dude...stop comparing geckos to humans....human:apartment does not equal gecko:rack....burmese:rack does not equal gecko:rack...not saying that bigger is better or smaller is better...but those are invalid analogies...we provide our caging system best to our ability...may be financial...spacial...or maybe informational...or better yet...experience...so this thread is not something that would ever answer anything...but for the sake of the argument...here is what ive found:

geckos with big enclosures advantages: (from what ive heard)
1. roaming space
2. less stress?...X user posted this
3. more space to put beautiful decorations ...lol
4. more range of thermal gradient...
5. more range for humidity
6.better viewing

big disadvantages:
1. stress level high?...another X user posted this
2. less contact with food items
3. hard to clean
4. expensive to buy
5. hard to keep thermal gradient constant

geckos with small enclosures advantages: (also from what ive heard)
1.less stress?...X user posted this
2.easy to clean
3. easy to keep constant thermal gradient
4. easy to keep humidity constant
5. easy to find your gecko
6. inexpensive
7. easy to move
8. lots of contact

geckos with a smaller enclosure disadvantages:
1. little space for roaming
2. more stress?..X user posted this
3. no space to put pretty decorations
4.less range for temperature gradient
5. less range for humidity gradient
6. too much with food items ?

all additions welcome

Wanted to correct my typo. I have one in a 20 gallon long, not a 10. Was in a hurry to type the message and didn't check it over. Also came across a lot more negative than I had planned. Enjoy your geckos just don't produce more than can be housed humanely.

Matt

I currently only have one juvie...and a 20 would be way to big for her she can bearly find her food now lol...she's not the best hunter...But when she gets bigger...I am thinking about moving her to a 20.

I absolutely agree with this! Even when my bearded dragon was a baby she could only be in a ten gallon tank. Now that she's an adult my bearded dragon resides in a 100 gallon tank.

Similar with your leo-when fully grown about eight inches, 20 gallons is more appropriate. Trust me she will be much much happier in there. And a ten gallon tank is soo very cramped.

JadeFox

1....beardie...in...1...1....HUNDRED GALLON TANK?....u gotta be joking..100....1...0...0...thats a one with 0's...okay...is it just me guys...or is that a little generous?

My leo Has TONS of room in her 10 gallon. She does have room to run around and play. If a 10 gallon is cramped for a single everything you are putting in it is to big. My leo runs around and on top of everything.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

My image Gallery

Tons of room????? Who are you trying to kid? A ten gallon tank is merely 20" long and 10" width. You leo is about 8" long.
It's length itself is almost HALF of the entire ten gallon tank.

A hideaway log...
A water dish...
A separate dish for mealworms and calcium/D3 dust...

That doesn't leave much room for walking and climbing, other than the hideaway log and stepping into things.

It's cramped quarters.

It's like living your life in half a single bedroom!

JadeFox

people need to stop comparing them to humans...its not at all like a person living in half a bedroom...they are COMPLETELY different behaviorally....
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.

how can a ten gallon be too little for a gecko?...dude...like ur beardie in a 100 gallon tank...in ur human to gecko comparison...that would be like a boy in a parking lot...although i think humans:geckos are stupid comparisons...no offense...well...atleast none intended...

happy herping- eric chen

Methinks some of the folks here have never SEEN an adult leo. Leos don't reach their full size until they're around 3 or 4 years old, after all.
A 30-40 gram "adult" leo, not quite breeding age, is what most people see in pet stores, sold as adults. Yes, an animal that size could be kept in a 10 gallon tank with no real stress.
But a 50 to 60 gram true adult? No way. They are much bigger than you realize.

Here's my adult male, Zeus (and my friend's hand, lol).

I agree. 10 gallons is TOO small for an adult leo, and I always recommend a 20 gallon for a single animal.

I agree with bigger is better. Racks are just ugly imho. Leos are such beautiful creatures, how can you NOT display them. And it doesn't have to be all glass, just one side can be glass which reduces stress.

Plus These guys are so hardy they can adjust to most anything.
All in all, great pets deserve great homes

I have a rack, and a 30 gallon display rack.

I am expecting as many as 24 hatchlings this season...I think that displaying all of them will be out of the question, and they aren't going to new homes until they are well established, so growing them out in the rack will work very well.
I have 3 females. Even a small breeder like myself must have something like a rack to provide proper care for the offspring. Even if I had 1 female, a rack wouldn't be out of the question--my only other option would be to have 8 tanks, or double them up...which is not good for them. Competition for food can lead to weakened, smaller babies. They need to be seperate until they are older. They require tlc--and tlc for a lizard means solitude, quiet, security, proper heat and light cycle, nutrious food, and being left the heck alone. The amount of light that enters a rack during the day is perfect--it's just like being in a cave or burrow, which is where wild leos would be during the day.

The parents are in the display tank. The male I moved into the rack for a while when he injured his jaw--he recovered quickly there, and I could guage how much he was eating more easily. I did not move him back until he was fully recovered (with 3 ladies to choose from, he doesn't annoy them). The rack is a less stressful environment.

I certainly think it's a shame that most of the "high end" geckos available on the market are destined to live in racks. I think that these gorgeous creatures we're all so proud of producing should be on display--I think that potential pet owners should be looking at them, and not simply settling for "normal" leos that they don't like as well, because they are less expensive.

This is for us, though--not for them. They LIKE racks. We like display cages. A display cage is a piece of living art, it's there for our enjoyment--we can admire our pets, watch their behavior, and appreciate having them. Their opinion at being gawked at is probably entirely different.

what in the world is that supposed to mean?...their your pets not your showoff items...they are behaviourally shy and thrive in opaque, cramped spaces....displaying the animals is fine...but shouldn't be why you keep animals...not that i think you are...just a general statement...but for the record...i keep animals as pets...to simulate living conditions...not to have a translucent display box so my gecko is seen by all...

There are good reasons to put your animals in display cages. It allows you to observe them in detail, for long periods of time, without overtly disturbing them.

This can enable you to pick up on behavior problems, health problems, etc. I would NEVER have realized that one of my geckos had serious depth perception problems if I did not have her in a 30 gallon display tank. Now, this tank is in my bedroom, and the door is kept closed during the day. She's not exposed to the hustle and bustle of everyday life, here, she's out of the way, in a quiet location.
Plus, I greatly enjoy being able to go in there, sit quietly, and watch and enjoy my beautiful geckos.
I also get to observe them as I lie down to go to sleep, because they have a red lamp for night viewing and warmth.

A 20 gal has the same floor space as a 10 gal....
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______________________________________________________
Well its true you just take a look; the cover sometimes makes the book; and the judges did they ever ask to read between your lines; and your cage at the human zoo they all stop to look at you; next year what will you do when you have been forgotten -Miss America (a song by styx)
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant, than open it and remove all doubt." -a t-shirt
___________________
**Alyssa**
Leos4you-High Quality Leos, Without The Designer Prices!!

OK...first off a leos brain is not as complex as ours so compairing a rack to a closet is not a good compairison...secondly you cant say a rack is like giving them one window and facing them toward a brick wall, if kept properly they should have a background on three sides in a tank to reduce stress...please stop compairing yourself to a gecko their brains are to small to process the information we do, for example if you were in a "cramped" space would you scratch at the glass or whatever for hours night after night?
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-Bryan

Reflex Geckos Check it out!

>>OK...first off a leos brain is not as complex as ours so compairing a rack to a closet is not a good compairison...secondly you cant say a rack is like giving them one window and facing them toward a brick wall, if kept properly they should have a background on three sides in a tank to reduce stress...please stop compairing yourself to a gecko their brains are to small to process the information we do, for example if you were in a "cramped" space would you scratch at the glass or whatever for hours night after night?
>>-----
>>-Bryan
>>
>>Reflex Geckos Check it out!
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Josh
My Email

Your statement is very short sighted. You will be surprised how intelligent lizards are. Human beings should not be so arrogant to think themselves so superior. Lizards, and most other animals, in fact, feel emotions. I can give hundreds of examples with my babies. Scientists now agree that feeling emotions is not at all unique among humans, and animals are smarter than you think. Even lizards.

But I read in some of those expert pet books that a 15 to 20 gallon aquarium is preferable for the leo than a 10 gallon tank.

Maybe you are not as close to your leo as I am. Mine wants to be picked up--she sees me, comes out, goes up to the glass and paws at it, and I stick my hand in there and it walks on me without having to pick it up. She loves it. And I can tell from her behaviour that she truly enjoys the 20 gallon tank much better than the 10 gallon one. I can tell from her behaviour.

What's the matter with a 20 gallon tank? They only cost about $30.

Jade Fox

A gecko's ability to feel emotions is not in question--I think there are very few holdovers to the old school of thought on animal emotions.
They do not feel ALL of the emotions we do, because they don't have the areas of the brain where those emotions occur, and they have no need for them.
Take love, for example. Love is an emotion designed specifically to bond us to another individual--it compels us to care for our offspring, remain in our social group(tribe), and stay with our mate to maximize reproductive sucess.
A gecko, which comes together with a member of the opposite sex ONLY to mate, does not live in groups and sees other individuals only as competitors, and does not care for its offspring at all, has absolutely no need for that emotion--and it never evolved it.

It does feel fear, anger, contentment (happiness), lust, curiousity/interest, and discomfort/stress/unhappiness. Very primal emotions linked so thoroughly to instinct that they are virtually indistinguishable. Emotion is the carrot and stick that compels instinctive behaviors.

Understand your reptile's emotions, read its body language as best you can, and try to put yourself in its place--but do NOT anthropomorphize. Doing so will not do you or your pet any good whatsoever. Appreciate it for what it is.

okay...agree with fear...and thats about it...BUT THEY AREN'T EMOTIONS...WHY?!...CUZ ANIMALS ARE THERE TO SURVIVE...im not talking about mammals...im talking about reptiles...reptiles....reptiles....there is no m...there is no a...there are no l's in reptiles...so don't compare them to ANYTHING OF THE MAMMALIAN category...first of all...they feel fear ...why?!...cuz they need to know when to run away when big ugly things try to hunt them down...they feel contentment?!...now how would u know they feel contentment...i know my gecko is "content"in your words) because it eats well...and thats about it...therefore ...we can derive the idea that "geckos eat well without stress"....and therefore "content"...so are people supposed to do?...we are supposed to care for them in a way that least stress possible is in mind....and so we provide them with a dark opaque enclosure in which they feel secure...why do most field herpers flip under rocks to find reptiles?? CUZ THEY LIKE DARK CRAMPED SPACES....tell me one instance that uknow of that a herper goes to an open totally barren desert looking for animals...u won't find any...and if racks are the most efficient cheapest, space conserving way then thats what we'll stick with....emotions are felt by animals that are mammals...that includes us...that includes dogs...that includes cats....horses...etc...

ur idea that reptiles feel "emotions" is only partially correct....their so called "fear" is a response...a flee response...they are scared and therefore they run...and we can only describe it in a way that we know it...and that is "fear"...and geckos don't lust...first of all..geckos engage in sexual activity to reproduce...lust is a human characteristic which usually happens when we see beautiful women/men...simply because they are more beautiful than others and we express lust through sex...geckos will mate with practically any gecko they see...they have no discrepency in which one gecko is prettier and ill mate with that one...and lastly as i said...contentment is expressed through a healthy gecko..and healthy gecko is one that eats well in a dark opaque environment that is preferably supplied with a cramped hiding spot which it will feel securely.....

happy herping-eric chen

okay stupidity made me look really stupid...there is a L in reptile...aHAHAHHAHAHHA sorry about that

Reptiles do feel emotions. Emotions, as I said, are the carrot and the stick that compel instinctive behaviors. Mammalian emotions are more complex because our instinctive behaviors are more complex--that's all.
They have the brain equipment to feel simple emotions, and that's what they feel.

Yes, they feel lust. Why else would a male seek out a female with such avid interest? Why else would she let him hook up with her? They are NOT AUTOMATONS. They aren't just acting in a vacuum, to robotic-style programming. Emotions compel their actions--they do it because it feels good, and because they desire it.

That is WHY EMOTIONS EXIST. They serve no other purpose, than to compel us to act on our instincts. In THAT respect, we are no different from them. We have more emotions, and more complex emotions, because we have more complex instincts.

Actually I don't think they do feel lust...I may be wrong here...but I'm pretty sure male leos react instinctively to pheremones produced by the females and mating is a natural instinctive "reflex" to the pheremones.
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.

i completly follow you and i dont even have a gecko in a 10 gallon...only 20 L...but i do keep geckos in 28qt steralites. i am close to my leos (take them out and spend time with them and such) i do realize they are intelligent and have emotions or else they wouldnt bite when mad or scared...but all im simply saying is they can do fine in a ten gallon if set up properly and will enjoy themselves....
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-Bryan

Reflex Geckos Check it out!

True leos may not process information like people do; they cannot understand language, and logic....however, certain fundamental things apply like sense of space. Now WHY DO YOU THINK THEY ARE SCRATCHING THE GLASS FOR night after night? duhhh......it's probably because it's very cramped in there! I don't see mine doing it too much since I put her in her 20 gallon tank. Now she used to quite frequently in a ten gallon tank.

JadeFox

Some just scratch the glass...its not always about space issue... Anyway...I do think lizards are more intelligent than they are given credit for...but I think you are giving them more credit than is due...Their brains are MUCH less developed than even probably a hampster's...

Also...just so you know, I am a prevet major in college and do believe that all animals have some sort of feelings and are intelligent and should be kept as "happy" and healthy as possible. I love all animals (and indeed my leos...I love to let Bronx just sit on my shoulder) and while I'm not a vegetarian...there are some animals I refuse to eat just because I love them so much (lamb, venison, and veal for example).
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.

Mine (1.3 in a 30 gallon tank with multiple hides and climbing branches) never do it, with one exception--the gravid females will roam and scratch a few days before they lay. I assume this is an instinctive need to find the absolute best place to lay their eggs--what I've provided for them is good, but hey, if they hunt, they might find something better, yes?

so obviously space has nothing to do w/ it...cuz my male in the 20 long is ALWAYS scratching...i think its just that they want out..cuz, well, HELLO we are keeping them in a cage!!! they want their freedom...thats an instinct in all animals..
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______________________________________________________
Well its true you just take a look; the cover sometimes makes the book; and the judges did they ever ask to read between your lines; and your cage at the human zoo they all stop to look at you; next year what will you do when you have been forgotten -Miss America (a song by styx)
"It is better to keep your mouth shut and appear ignorant, than open it and remove all doubt." -a t-shirt
___________________
**Alyssa**
Leos4you-High Quality Leos, Without The Designer Prices!!

that would be a tall a$$ tank
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The following sentence is true.
The above sentence is false.

4.4 Leopard Geckos
1.0 Marbled Gecko
1.1 Red Eared Sliders
0.2 Siamese Mice

My fathers 20 gal fish tank has the same length and depth as my 15 gal tanks thus the same floor space. They are both 12" deep (front to back) and 24" long. The only difference is height the fish tank is 16" tall and the 15 gal tank is 12" tall.

Now all of my geckos are either in 20 gal long or 40 gal tanks. I agree that a 10 gal can be small but most of the geckos i housed in the 10 gal did just fine. I made a second level so they had more floor space and all were active and healthy while they were in it. My only purpose for moving them after their quarentine was to group my females together. All of my females (except the one i just bought who is still in quarentine) were purchased from the same breeder and are now housed in 40 gal tanks. The first group of five have done very well in that tank and the second group, four females, are doing great.

My males are currently in 20 gal long tanks (12"x30" but now that my 15 gal tanks are free i'm moving them. As with the 10 gal i'll be making them a second level and providing many hiding areas. I think they'll do great in them

Red
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Crested Gecko Zeek:1.0, Ziggy and Zeus
LEOS: Boo: 1.0 normal , Bronx & Nala: 1.1 blizzard,
Lily: 0.1 patternless, Abby: 0.1 albino, Zoe: 0.1 reduced pattern, Dot: 0.1 hypo
New Girls: Flame, Karma, Bubbles and Bell pics coming soon
Chip: 1.0 papillion (small dog)

Creating a second level in a 10 gallon is a reasonable way to increase floor space and reduce stress--a two-tiered 10 gallon is at least as good as 20. But that wasn't what was originally discussed.

The original poster stated that a 10 gal was to small for an adult leopard gecko and in your own words you said "a second level in a 10 gallon is a reasonable way to increase floor space and reduce stress" so i think it applies quite well. Its an option for people who use 10 gal tanks for their leos.

Someone also stated that a 20 gal long tank is like $30 bucks so why not get one. Thats fine whereever they are, but where i am (Ontario Canada) a 20 gal long tank with screen top cost me $100 For young people on a fixed income, if any at all, buying a 10 gal might be an only option (plus i've seen 10 gal tank kits with a light and other materials included). Such a kit might be easier and cheaper to purchase than getting everything idividually.

Now don't get me wrong.....none of my adults are in my 4 10 gal tanks....i use them for quarentine purposes and right now the newest tank is for my very very small AFT's. Anything larger and i'm sure they wouldn't be able to find their water or food.

I do, however, believe that my 15 gal tanks (12x12x24) with a second level is plenty of space for my male geckos (kept in their own tank of course).

Personal opinions are fine with me, but attacking/name calling anyone who uses a product that you disagree with is inappropriate. I have no problem sharing how i created the second levels in my tanks and what behavioural differences i've observed in doing so.

Red

>>Creating a second level in a 10 gallon is a reasonable way to increase floor space and reduce stress--a two-tiered 10 gallon is at least as good as 20. But that wasn't what was originally discussed.
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Crested Gecko Zeek:1.0, Ziggy and Zeus
LEOS: Boo: 1.0 normal , Bronx & Nala: 1.1 blizzard,
Lily: 0.1 patternless, Abby: 0.1 albino, Zoe: 0.1 reduced pattern, Dot: 0.1 hypo
New Girls: Flame, Karma, Bubbles and Bell pics coming soon
Chip: 1.0 papillion (small dog)

Long of course--I'm not so stupid as to purchase an expensive 20 gallon high which is utterly useless for a leo, although good for treefrogs

JadeFox

Leopard geckos come from the deserts of Iran and Pakistan... quite expansize deserts to say the least. To say a large enclosure stresses any animal is to say "I'm dumb, please slap me." Noting in the wild is born into a rack system, or a deli cup, or even a 20L. A 20L is the smallest anyone should cram an 8" lizard into, honestly if I thought she wouldn't freeze to death I'd let my leo wander about my apt, lord knows there are anough random bugs around. Racks, 10 gallons, kritter keepers, and deli cups are inhumane attempts at farming an animal that originally comes from a huge expanse of desolation, with the sun rising and setting, the raisn coming twice a month, and a big studly male coming on occasion to knock up a lonely female. You people who insist that anything thrives in a rack need to get smacked. If the sun stopped setting it would freak you right the hell out of your skin... imagine their stress from the sun never rising. The power breeders, and power collectors need to wake up and realize it's our responsibility to try to accomodate our pets to their benefit, not our own.

they like to find the tighest spot to hide during daytime and they try to stay close their hide spot as possbile. In captive, we decresed the stress because they like to hide in the tighest spot they would find. Hide box reduces them and deli reduce stress during the expo.
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Preston Berry
www.freewebs.com/coolgeckoUnder Construction
restonberry@austin.rr.com" target="_blank">Prestonberry@austin.rr.com

The sun rises for my leos at the same time every day. It's called a light on a timer.
I reduce the photoperiod in the winter, and increase it during the summer.

Your leos "used to expansive deserts" spend their days in small burrows, rock crevices, and caves, and they do not come out, because to do so would make them a target for predators. Sunrise is something that happens after they've already gone to bed. At night, they emerge cautiously, and don't travel far, as they hunt for insects. They stick to cover. They spend their entire lives on a small patch of land...as small as it can be and still provide them with everything they need. The ones that fail to do this, are eaten.

The leos in my display tank go to bed around 3 or 4 AM. They don't get up until the lights go off.

by your standards you are cruel. you CANT compare the wild to captivity.
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0.1 "Tremper" looking Albino Leopard gecko (Lex)
0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

My image Gallery

Not all animals of the same size need the same amount of space to thrive and be "happy" (whatever "happy" may mean to them). Actually sometimes smaller animals need larger spaces then larger animals. Greyhounds for example are very large dogs that make FANTASTIC apartment dogs...they big couch potatoes and sleep 20 hours a day, however you should NEVER keep a border collie (which can be half the size of a greyhound) in an apartment and usually not even in a house all day...its all about energy levels and drive to leave the place the animal is at. Leopard geckos are quite sedentary compared to a lot of other lizards their size, and like to stay in a fairly small area. I think the key to using a 10 gallon is just providing plenty of climbing space. Also, for those against racks...leos are a nocturnal species...they LIKE IT DARK...many leos refuse to come out if there's a light on. They also like it secure...a rack provides a very secure safe low stress environment for them. It keeps it dark and the fact that the sides (usually) aren't clear means they know nothing can get in at them and they are less disturbed by people walking around or doing things or anything else that goes on in the room. I personally am not using any racks, and don't have any full size leos in a 10 gallon, but I woul NOT hesitate to keep adults in 10 gallons or a rack.
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.

I do *not* agree with any of your statement. You are trying to tell me that it is better to keep an intelligent animal in a small cramped living area is better than a larger one with some leg room? This defys all common sense. I can tell from my leo's behaviour she is much happier in a 20 gallon tank. I even read in some of those expert books that a 15 to 20 gallon would be preferable to a ten gallon tank.

I think 10 gallon tank is totally unacceptable. You are taking a eight inch creature into a 20 inch long and 10" width environment.

And I do not know anything about dogs--I do not keep them--but I did so when I was a child. ALL DOGS love the outdoors regardless of breed. That's why they go nuts with excitement when you are about to take them out for walkies. You are trying to tell me a dog is happier staying in an apartment all the time--in a single room perhaps? I don't think so.

JadeFox

I quote your statement: "Not all animals of the same size need the same amount of space to thrive and be "happy" (whatever "happy" may mean to them). Actually sometimes smaller animals need larger spaces then larger animals. Greyhounds for example are very large dogs that make FANTASTIC apartment dogs...they big couch potatoes and sleep 20 hours a day, however you should NEVER keep a border...."

I never said dogs don't love the outdoors...and just so you know, most of them are just as eager to come back inside as they are to go out in the first place if they're treated right by thier owners...my dog comes flying back up the stairs ahead of me to the apartment as soon as he's done going to the bathroom...I was trying to make the point that a larger dog with lower energy can do better in a smaller space than a smaller dog with a higher energy level. Greyhounds are very large dogs and make EXCELLENT apartment dogs...border collies on the other hand are EXTREMELY high energy dogs that NEED to be able to go out A LOT and actually work...they pretty much CAN NOT live in an apartment. I dont' know how you can disagree with something you said yourself you know nothing about... Anyway...The real issue is activity level...not size...if you had an 8" lizard that never moved an inch except to get to its food and go to the bathroom...why in God's name would you waste the space to keep it in space it wouldn't use (this is obviously an extreme example...)??? I would say leos are the greyhounds of the lizards. They spend most of their time sleeping but when they come out are fairly active...however all they really need is some climbing space and not just flat floor space if they're in a 10 (besides hides and dishes...). As coolgecko said above...even in the wild they don't wander far from thier "dens." They like to feel safe and secure, and a smaller darker space allows for that. I would never go smaller than a 10...but I personally believe a 10 is perfectly adequate for the average leo if "furnished" well...though there may be some that are more active than normal and would do a lot better in a larger space.
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.

thats very true...im into dogs as well...and in the DOG FANCY magazine of i think June issue of 2003...it lists best apartment dogs...and Great Danes were listed 4th out of ten selections...consider that!

lol...i'm not sure I'd agree with that one...depending on the apartment...they do need room to at least be able to turn around...LOL
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.

hehe go bark at dog fancy...don't bark at me ..jk

lol...i ain't barking...I'm just saying! I missed that issue...I know danes can live in apartments...but they can't be tiny apartments or they wouldn't even be able to lay down comfortably!...not that they'd care b/c their such agreeable pooches...lol I definitely wouldn't keep a dane in my apartment...the apartment itself is big enough...but my room is tiny and it definitely wouldn't be able to roll over! Anyway...enough of the doggy talk...this a reptile forum! lol
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.

He was not saying that a dog is happier in an apartment than in a huge area.
He was saying that a greyhound is happier in an apartment than a border collie.
So long as your greyhound gets out once a day to run and get some exercise, it is not UNHAPPY living in an apartment. That was the point made.
However, a leopard gecko requires as much space as a 20 gallon. Whether it's a sweater box, a tiered 10 gallon, or whatever, it still requires more space than just the floor of a 10 gallon tank, or it will be stressed. Just as a border collie would be in an apartment.

The usual rule for lizards is that the tank should be 1 1/2 times as long as the lizard, and fully as wide as the lizard is long. A 10 gallon tank does not fit that criterion. A 20 doesn't always, either, but a leo is a sedentary lizard that can get by with a bit less space.
The main problem with a 10 gallon is that you cannot create a proper temperature gradient in it. The gradient would be too steep for so large a lizard, forcing it to move frequently to be comfortable.

I do personally think that a 10 gallon can be absolutely sufficient for an adult leo....depending on the leo and the way its set up. I don't think just the floor space and a couple hides is good enough...I think if a leo is going to be in a 10 gallon they at least need plenty of things to climb on. I believe with Red's (I think it was her...lol) idea of using 2 levels...which is perfectly in line with the original argument which was simply that a 10 gallon is never big enough and is always cruel.... Also I wouldn't keep an overly active or very large leo in a 10 gallon. But your comments about my dog argument were quite correct!
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.

i do believe that lets say we are given an adult 8 inch gecko...if the enclosure has to be 1 and 1/2 of its total length...err..i believe that

8'x 1.5 = 12 inches...and a ten gallon is 20 inches long am i not correct?...that leaves 8 inches for happy roaming..HAHAHHAHA

That should have been 2 1/2.

Thus, for an 8 inch gecko, 16 4 = 20 inches.
If your cage is fully 8 inches wide, then it's big enough...for an 8 inch gecko. Did you measure the width?

If your geckos is longer than 8 inches, AS MANY ADULT LEOS ARE, then it is too small.

Why did you make that statement? If you truely are intelligent, you would keep those comments to yourself. You don't know my geckos and you don't know how they think and feel. You say that geckos don't like the dark, why do they stay in their hides all day long? And if you really care about the feelings you claim your gecko has why keep it in a cage at all? You should fly over to Pakistan and realease your gecko into the wild.....

I keep my geckos, 5 to a 50 gallon long. Is that large enough, Mr. Leopard Gecko Feelings Expert?

Sorry to argue, but it ticks me off when you call me cruel and crazy. I have had leos in 10 gallons and they have done great. Think about what you are going to say, before you say it.

Matt
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1.9 SHTC Leopard Geckos
0.0.4 and counting SHTC Leopard Geckos
1.2 Veiled Chameleons
1.1 Arizona Mt. Kings

n/p
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Christina

Leopard Gecko Morph Descriptions

2.3 leos
-0.1 tangerine het rainwater albino w/jungle background (Blinkers)
-0.2 jungles (Vahz & Skissor)
-1.0 tremper albino (Spitfire)
-1.0 tangerine rainwater albino (Bronx)

-ignorance is not to be punished when one is trying to gain knowledge...what scares me is the vast number of people who, when given the information to gain knowledge, choose to ignore it.