Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here to visit Classifieds
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You
Click here for Dragon Serpents

Someone please, recognize this snake...

Sybella Jun 15, 2003 12:21 AM

I was given this snake because she bit the heck out of her last keeper. She's a total sweetie pie with me. I wonder what he did! LOL!

I have 3 pictures of her up in my Yahoo photos. She's the olive and gold snake.
http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/lady_sybella/lst?.dir=/Snake pics&.view=t

It's obvious that she's a vine snake of some sort...she looks like a Mexican Vine Snake but those are brown. She's built for speed...pointy face and angular head, long skinny body and very smooth scales.

I was told that she's rear-fanged and I agree that she does have a "poison" look to her head. I was also told that she was an Egyptian Sand Snake variety. ??? I've searched for hours through the internet and the only thing I can find that looks anything like her is a Mexican Vine Snake, but they are brown.

By the way, I'm positive she is a female because she layed eggs just before my friend gave her to me.

I've had her for a few days and she'll need to eat soon. I have a feeling she's a lizard eater and don't want to keep offering the wrong thing until I get it right.

Does anyone know what she is and what she eats? Please?? I'm desperate!! LOL!

Replies (13)

Greg Longhurst Jun 15, 2003 01:12 AM

Without knowing roughly where it is from..like, say, a continent..my first thoughts could be way off. Looks to me like one of the North American western whipsnakes, genus Masticophis, species taeniatus or bilineatus. They feed not only on lizards, but upon snakes & small mammals as well, so an appropriatley sized mouse might well work.

~~Greg~~
Florida's Venomous Snakes

oldherper Jun 15, 2003 06:59 AM

looks like a Sonora Whipsnake to me. (Masticophis bilineatus bilineatus)

Sybella Jun 15, 2003 04:13 PM

That whipsnake is blue/gray and mine is definately olive. The head on that Sonoran Whipsnake looks a little too round too.

I received one response by email...someone suggested that she might be a Psammophis phillipsii. I've only managed to find one picture of this African Olive Grass Snake but it's not very good for comparison in this case. http://www.worldtrippersaol.com/tanzania/l011016.htm

What do you guys think? Closer? Right on?? Another idea?

Thank you so much for all the help!!

oldherper Jun 15, 2003 05:29 PM

That's a good possibility...I was looking at what looked like a dark stripe under it's eye in that head shot...going back and looking again, it looks like that might be just shadow.

The shape of the head is, in fact, Psammophis-like. I'm not overly familiar with those snakes, so I won't be much help trying to nail it down to species.

Greg Longhurst Jun 15, 2003 09:24 PM

Be careful. (Which you are NOT being in the pix) The genus is rear-fanged venomous, & some of the species can cause real distress. Like I said in my original post, not knowing where in the world the animal originated leaves all of us at a distinct disadvantage.

~~Greg~~

Sybella Jun 16, 2003 02:34 AM

Yes, I knew from the start that it was probably rear-fanged and venomous...She has that "look" to her. Thanks!!

WW Jun 18, 2003 11:16 AM

>>Yes, I knew from the start that it was probably rear-fanged and venomous...She has that "look" to her. Thanks!!

That is definitely a very nice specimen of Psammophis sp., although I don't know which species.

I would very strongly recommend against handling the snake the way you show in the photos. Psammophis have very large venom glands and complex venoms that are chockers with neurotoxins. There are no reports of human fatalities, but these snakes can drop mice with remarkable rapidity, and the closely related Malpolon monspessulanus has caused bites with serious neurotoxic consequences, including significant breathing difficulty. But then, the Psammophiines are quite closely related to the elapids.

I would recommend contacting Robert Mertens or Karl Patterson Schmidt about the dangers of underestimating rear-fanged colubrids. Unfortunately, they are both dead.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
-----
WW

WW Home

oldherper Jun 18, 2003 11:42 AM

I think people tend to seriously underestimate the potential dangers of a lot of rear-fanged colubrids, particularly Hydrodynastes, Boiga, Psammophis and Leioheterodon. Some of these are known to possess a venom that has the potential to be dangerous to humans, particularly those that may be hyper-sensitive to some of the protiens and other compounds in them. Others are simply not understood well enough yet. It may also be that there are variations in toxicity from locale to locale, and the possibility of some of them being in the process of evolving more toxic venoms. The only way that you know if you are hypersensitive is to get bitten. As a rule, there is no Antivenin for these venoms. It may well be that there are no recorded human fatalities for a particular species, but there was always a first one for every species that is known to kill people. As Wolfgang pointed out, at one time Thelatornis and Dispholidus were considered "harmless" and had even reportedly appeared in pet stores for sale. Any rear fanged colubrid MUST be handled and treated as a potentially dangerous animal.

WW Jun 19, 2003 04:51 AM

>>I think people tend to seriously underestimate the potential dangers of a lot of rear-fanged colubrids, particularly Hydrodynastes, Boiga, Psammophis and Leioheterodon. Some of these are known to possess a venom that has the potential to be dangerous to humans, particularly those that may be hyper-sensitive to some of the protiens and other compounds in them.

I have heard of cases of anaphylaxis after garter snake bites. Anaphylaxis is a whole different ball game, and has very little to do with the strength of the venom. After all, a bee sting is trivial to a non-sensitive individual.

>> Others are simply not understood well enough yet. It may also be that there are variations in toxicity from locale to locale, and the possibility of some of them being in the process of evolving more toxic venoms. The only way that you know if you are hypersensitive is to get bitten. As a rule, there is no Antivenin for these venoms. It may well be that there are no recorded human fatalities for a particular species, but there was always a first one for every species that is known to kill people. As Wolfgang pointed out, at one time Thelatornis and Dispholidus were considered "harmless" and had even reportedly appeared in pet stores for sale. Any rear fanged colubrid MUST be handled and treated as a potentially dangerous animal.

It's basically a matter of considering how much or how little we know about the snake in question, both from the point of view of the toxins and itneractions with humans. For some colubrids, there has been a long history of intensive interaction without major problems - for instance, Thamnophis have been kept in their hundreds of thousands by kids, and once in a while, someone got a sore hand. However, after so many interactions, we can be reasonably confident that we have seen the full envelope of what Thamnophis can do to us. I would be truly amazed to hear of a life-threatening Thamnophis bite. One could argue the same for Heterodon nasicus - very nasty swollen arms, yup, but fatal? - very unlikely.

However, for many other colubrids, we don't have a sufficiently extensive history of human interaction to be sure of the worst-case potential. Psammophis aren't kept all that commonly by herpetoculturists, so the fact that there have been some bites with minimal envenomation cannot be taken as an indication that more serious bites are impossible. South African field guides generaly recommend caution when dealing with larger species, and we know that they have a large venom yield and some pretty hot toxins, including neurotoxins. That should certainly ring some alarm bells.

The same applies to other rare species, or those that have only recently become available. After all, Rhabdophis subminatus was a popular pet snake in the 70's and 80's, until a series of life-threatening bites woke everyone up. I suspect that there are a number of "next Rhabdophis" out there in the wonderful world of colubrids, and someone, somewhere, will one day have a very unpleasant surprise. Point is, don't be first to find out.

Cheers,

Wolfgang
-----
WW

WW Home

Sybella Jun 18, 2003 08:45 PM

"I would recommend contacting Robert Mertens or Karl Patterson Schmidt about the dangers of underestimating rear-fanged colubrids. Unfortunately, they are both dead."

LMAO!!! Point well taken, Wolfgang!

BFG has been helping me on this too. As I'm sure you know, Bryan studies venom. I believe he said the same thing, that their venom ducts are relatively huge. I haven't been handling her much, if at all lately, and will continue my search for additional accurate information on her.

Thank you all again for all the help! It is well appreciated!

jfmoore Jun 15, 2003 05:21 PM

>>I was given this snake because she bit the heck out of her last keeper. She's a total sweetie pie with me. I wonder what he did! LOL!
>>
>>I have 3 pictures of her up in my Yahoo photos. She's the olive and gold snake.
>>http://photos.yahoo.com/bc/lady_sybella/lst?.dir=/Snake pics&.view=t
>>
>>It's obvious that she's a vine snake of some sort...she looks like a Mexican Vine Snake but those are brown. She's built for speed...pointy face and angular head, long skinny body and very smooth scales.
>>
>>I was told that she's rear-fanged and I agree that she does have a "poison" look to her head. I was also told that she was an Egyptian Sand Snake variety. ??? I've searched for hours through the internet and the only thing I can find that looks anything like her is a Mexican Vine Snake, but they are brown.
>>
>>By the way, I'm positive she is a female because she layed eggs just before my friend gave her to me.
>>
>>I've had her for a few days and she'll need to eat soon. I have a feeling she's a lizard eater and don't want to keep offering the wrong thing until I get it right.
>>
>>Does anyone know what she is and what she eats? Please?? I'm desperate!! LOL!

chrish Jun 15, 2003 11:07 PM

Psammophis schokari of N. Africa and the Middle east would be my best guess. It is definitely one of the Psammophis species, but it is hard to say which one (many are very similar in appearance).

All Psammophis are venomous (rear-fanged) and should be treated with respect. Remember, there were to other "poorly known" rear fanged snakes that were generally regarded as harmless....until they killed someone (Dispholidus, Thelatornis, Rhabdophis, Boiga). I would handle this snake with care when I had to handle it at all.
-----
Chris Harrison

Sybella Jun 16, 2003 03:25 PM

She matches in body and head shape to those in the psammophis family. Thanks for all suggestions!!

Site Tools