Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm just curious as to peoples opinions on the least dangerous of the various FRONT FANGED venomous species. I'm primarily interested in a combination of toxicity and yield as the factors to be considered so a LD50 list dosn't necessarily give the answer.
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Amor et Lux,
Ron

"The gods tolerate the human race for no other reason than our talent for bullsh1t. It's the only thing about us that doesn't bore them to tears" Tom Robbins "Villa Incognito"

because there are plenty of snakes (especially in Elapidae) who's toxins are relatively unstudied (as well as the snake), but are generally not considered dangerous. There are quite a few genus's in Elapidae that are considered inoffensive to humans, but some of these snakes don't even have common names. Viperidae is different however, and I would not want to take a bite from ANY viper. However, i have heard Feas Viper (Azemiops faea) is supposed to have a mild venom. Hope this helps.

AP

I have personal bites from these species many times per each
and have good evidence theses are the least dangerous not in
any order.

pigmys- size matters on damage

copperheads- size matters

coral cobras the weakest venom of almost all elapids

popes tree vipers- big females will hurt you but adult males
are smaller and much less damaging.

masasaugas a bit worse than a pig.

hognoses eastern and westerns and southerns

false water cobras- the wound from the teeth is the main fear.

mangrove snakes snappy but unless you are letting it chew on you
nothing to fear

Tiger rattlers- although the most potent venom of all rattlers
I have been bit several times it not bad.

I would add there is always a chance of anphalaxis or a IV bite
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Bud

You mention you have personally been bitten by the snakes you listed? Why are you keeping venomous snakes!! I take great pride in having a perfect record in keeping venomous herps because I don't take unnecessary (aka STUPID) chances when working with them. I realize there are inherent risks involved when working with venomous herps and I am fully prepared for that day if it ever happens (not planning on it) but to "brag" about what you have been bitten by, well, this just sounds suspect. Your comments really touched a chord because in this day and age when government agencies are making the herp hobby more and more restrictive (particularly when it comes to venomous species), it only takes one bad bite in the news to ban the keeping of herps in that particular area. Sorry to be so harsh. Rob

PS....I would never recommend a list of "least venomous species"...any venomous snake, and I mean ANY, can pack a lethal bite depending on many circumstances

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest, IL

ok Rob,
don't get too jumpy .
I have had to defend my self from you before so once again here we go. another snooty curator?
These bites took place over 30+ plus years.
I never have had to go to the hospital also.
Never have had to have any overpriced antivenom.
so if never being bitten is YOUR opinion on being A good hot herper you have missed out some what.
like about 50% of the snake too bad.
I feel its much smarter to be able to brush off a bite like a
simple ant bite.
You rob have realy no plan for survival other than not getting bit thats sad not much of a plan?
Yes I would be scared with the prospect of a trip to the local house of tourture.

I would post my list of the real deadly snakes I have been
But I dont want to start any thing ha ha.

As to causing the athorities to over regulate the hobby.
ITS too late its coming now private ownership will be phased out in the next 4 to 5 years the ball is rolling and nobody policed themselves.
Venomous dealers selling to un qualified people has to stop and its out of control.
Too many people getting bit or letting snakes go .
Venomoiders running amuck unregulated mostly.
people keeping snakes in condos and trailers anything goes!
so dont cry to try to put some of this blame on me I showed and tried to help people to learn how to survive bites and
nobody listened .
And YOU of all people seem to have forgot I Told you this once before.
I answered the post as he wanted do you disagree on the selection of snakes ?
if not so be it .

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Bud

Don't worry, I am far from a "snooty curator"...we are NOT an AZA accredited zoo and I prefer it that way. We are basically a wildlife refuge for abandoned reptiles and birds of prey (and venomous just happen to be one of many types we keep for education purposes).

Yes, we have an extensive safety and emergency plan in place and that was a given but I should have included that in my response.

And, for the most part, I agree with your comments (accept the ones directed towards me).

Bud self immunizes with a variety of venoms in massive quantity, and very effectively too from what I have seen. That means his bites are unlikely to be of any consequence to anyone other than himself. His bites will never make the news or deplete anyone else's antivenom supply. His uncontrolled medical experiments with his own body might have very serious health consequences down the road, but he is the only person who will pay that price.

Does Bud do some outrageous things that I would prefer other people not try to copy at home? Certainly, but so do advanced athletes, race car drivers and professional stunt people. It's a free country and it's your body. As long as you are not harming anyone else, you should have the right to do as you like with it. What Bud likes is to inject himself with large quantities of snake venom and then freehandle the snakes.

I wouldn't do it, but it appears to work pretty well for him. Of course I haven't seen a biopsy of his kidneys, so I can't say how well it really is working in terms of his overall health. I can say that he appears strong and healthy.

I agree that bites are nothing to brag about, but Bud does have a unique perspective and experience that is potentially valuable knowledge. Even if most people would not be well advised to apply that knowledge in quite the same fashion.

If you get bit???? Its more like when you get bit.... It has happend to the best of handlers.... All it takes is one human error to get put in a bad situation.... True, proper handling should always be a priority but you are not immune to human error..... Get off the soap box.....

Soap box? No, I wasn't bragging about my record and I truly believe the old saying "there's two types of venomous keepers: those who have been bit and those who will get bit" is simply not true....but yes, accidents to even the best happen and that is the risk we all take. If my views are too strong for the many people on this forum then so be it. But, if I can sway one incompetent person from making a fatal decision to do something stupid, then, well, I guess I can justify my stance (plus, my primary purpose is to protect the hobby for those who are responsible and the original poster perhaps is one of them....it was just the way it was stated that struck a chord in me).

As the original questioner here I must say I am thankful for Bud's answers... I am not a venomous keeper and don't know if I ever will be but if I choose to keep and handle one (whether free handle or with hooks it's my choice) I think it is important to have a bit of knowledge as to the potential lethality. As to your: "any venomous snake, and I mean ANY, can pack a lethal bite depending on many circumstances" I must say that bees, spiders, and even dogs (see the story from Vancouver, WA. today) can pack a lethal bite. As a rational adult I know that any species I keep has its dangers and I must make some educated decisions on what I'm willing to accept. With that in mind I will say I'm facinated by venomous snakes but I'm unwilling to impose the danger of that facination on my family (even keeping one in a locked cage with no handling) if the odds are say more than 1 in 1000 that a bite from the species will kill a child if antivenin isn't administered (eg. species that have no antivenin). More importantly than my reasoning for wanting the knowledge however is that I'm concerned that a curator is unwilling to share that knowledge ("PS....I would never recommend a list of "least venomous species"..." Even more harmful to this hobby than people like Bud freehandling when he knows and is prepared for the consequences are the fears of the ignorant (literal sense of the word not meant as insulting). The more true knowledge about the species that is proliferated the more likely it is that peoples fears will be lessened. Also, the more willing people are to share their experiences with envenomation (whether intentional or not) the more likely it is that what has been previously seen as nothing more than a deadly toxin by most may be more widely accepted as having potential medicinal properties. That being said I'd still love to hear more peoples list's of what they perceive to be the least venomous species.
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Amor et Lux,
Ron

"The gods tolerate the human race for no other reason than our talent for bullsh1t. It's the only thing about us that doesn't bore them to tears" Tom Robbins "Villa Incognito"

A few thoughts on how to judge toxicity of venoms:
1. How 'dangerous' a particular snake is can not be determined by one's response to the bite. There are too many variables, such as amount of venom injected, health of the snake, the location of the bite, etc. I have seen many snakes kill a mouse instantly (ie copperheads) however some of the most notorious snakes don't necessarily kill immediately (ie mambas.) Obviously the time to death in these cases is not directly related to the LD50 of the venom. The same scenarios can occur with a bite to a human.
2. LD50's are determined by injecting set amounts of venom into a particular part of a rodent, like sub-q, IM, or a few others. They are a research tool and do not equate to how dangerous any particular species is.
3. Many snakes previously thought to be harmless have caused serious systemic symptoms and/or death. The most recent example of this is Philodryas sp., which are currently available in the pet trade, and are generally thought of as not dangerous. However a recent paper from Brazil lists a death from this genus. There is no way to determine how any individual will respond to a bite from any snake.
Best,
Jim Harrison

Hello Mr. Harrison,
I agree with you on most of your post.
But I would never compare a copperhead with a black mamba.
or a pygmy with a taipan.
how fast a mouse dies from being bit means less than the ld/50 data all that meant was the venom was delivered better or deeper.
And yes its imposible to get a snake to deliver the exact same bite twice.
With all that said My list is accurate.
Your chances of death from the snakes on my list is much less than others no matter how its spinned.
And thanks for your civil nature of your reply.
good day

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Bud

...size will matter ??

don' take my first post as bragging If I wanted to do that I would be here all the time hahaha you would get THE WRONG IDEA!

I never said there always the same reaction even with me the severity of the bite varies.
I have had a couple IV bites [ I lived ] and there are variables there also.
but size matters a small neonate will not be as bad as a full size adult bite generaly speaking.
If you read the endof my post I stated a warning about IV bites

Iv BITES are RARE TRY sticking a syringe into a vein with a quick thrust Its not too easy.
That said its rare but with a big viper with long fangs the chances are greater.
The fastest IV bite death was from a black mamba with short fangs.

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Bud

Bud,
Would you be willing to e-mail me off forum as I am very interested in your envenomation experiences. lyterius@yahoo.com
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Amor et Lux,
Ron

"The gods tolerate the human race for no other reason than our talent for bullsh1t. It's the only thing about us that doesn't bore them to tears" Tom Robbins "Villa Incognito"