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Hibernation

Cable_Hogue Apr 23, 2004 12:47 PM

I found this on a news group site and am wondering if anyone hibernates their HLs like this?

"To hibernate them, I would give them slightly damp sharp, clean sand, about 3-4 inches deep in a plastic storage box with only a couple of small holes for air, and store them at 40 - 45 degrees in the humid drawer of a refrigerator, after letting them go through a cool down-gut emptying-non feeding period. Check to ensure the sand stays slightly moist. Only hibernate them for 3-4 months at these temperatures. If you must hibernate them for more than 4 months-due to ant supply problems, keep them at below 40 degrees, but not close to 32, as ice crystal damage could start even above 32 degrees. Hibernating reptiles is a tricky balance between keeping the temperature low enough to shut down their metabolism and pathogens growth and not too low so they are damaged by potential cold spots. With these small, delicate lizards it would be certain death to attempt to hibernate them above 50 degrees. This hibernation scheme is what I've used for several years for box turtles, except that box turtles will tolerate higher hibernation temps due to their greater mass and ability to store more fat and water. "
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2 Kings 6:15-17

Replies (5)

reptoman Apr 27, 2004 09:05 AM

Cable-I am not the walking bible on reptiles especially lizards, but I totally disagree with this scenerio that was put forth. Here is my considered opinion based on years of keeping horned lizards outside in a 2 x 8ft cage in California, and having wintered many horned lizards and in general having observed many different species of lizards over the years.

These are facts as I see them, and then I will summerize.

1. Tempreture variations are significant in different areas and at different years.

2. May species and subspecies can be observed or have been observed out of hibernation during warm years, admittedly less for horned lizards.

3. The 45 degree idea is obsured in my opnion because it can go down to freezing and up to 80 degree's even in the winter.

4. Most of those really cold temps are at night during the day it usually goes up to the 50's or 60's.

5. You know it's not unusual to find a baby horned lizard even in late october when the big boys have started their sleep.

6. I have found with respect to breeding that a low consistant tempreature is not necessary in order to procreate animals the following spring. It's not in my opinion the cold only but a length of time of domarncy from inactivity due to hibernation but again temps in the wild can very 40 or 50 degrees week to week.

So in summary-I have found that the horned lizards once they go dormant usually stay dormant, however in very warm years I have observed my outside collection as coming out(some of them) but not eating or being very active, and then going down for the count again. Admittedly I thought that was a rare ovccurance, but if you observe the lizard fauna here in Texas you'll see many species out on a warm winter day. As I have noted previously I have yet to observe a Texas Horned Lizard here in San Antonio, we have had an inordinant amount of rain and cool temps. Yet as early as February I observed, swift lizards, anoles, brown skinks, and one baby stiped racer runner out and active. So I believe that most lizard fauna reacts to the temps over time, I think that horned lizards are probably the best winter's compared to other species that I have observed. The last horned lizard I caught in California was on March 15th and it was 71 degree's in the early morning about 9:30 in Riverside.
So my last statement is that I have wintered baby horned lizards and lost them outside. I don't know why because my full growns did fine. So when I had babies I eaither didn't winter the first year or I had them in the house under a higher temp but enough for them to go down so I could keep track better. Because healthy animals grow so fast, The next year they should go down for the winter o.k. I just really have a problem with that kind of sustained steady unrealistic temprature. SO know I given plenty for everybody to discuss this in more depth, but I think what I have stated above is factual based on years of observation and collection, and though I don't have any nor have had any horned lizards recently I have many years of experience and feel this would not be my option with repect to wintering. I would put them in an outside cage with plastic coated wire and 6 or 8" of sand with large pieces of sand stone or other pieces of wood that they can burrow down under. I usually take these guys out around March 15th if they are not out already. Anyway you posed an interesting scenerio there, but I understand there are people that use this type of methodology, but I would rather use the real temp variations as a matter of hibernation, especailly if your in the same local as the specie your keeping. I think this is artifical and misses some important issues in temp and length variations..............

Cable_Hogue Apr 28, 2004 09:55 AM

Thanks for the in-depth reply Reptoman. I have a lot of respect for your opinion and I think I would tend to use your methodology for hibernation as well.

The only reason this is intriguing to me is because of the steadiness of the temp. I know from hunting ants in Dec, Jan & Feb months that the underground temp is far higher than the surface temp. It would be interesting to know what studies might have been done on subterranean temperature variations in relation to surface variations. I am sure depth would also play a key role.

As for the refrigerator, it would make me nervous simply because they are usually airtight. Back in the old days kids used to get locked in them and suffocate. HL's would last a lot longer but I'd think they'd eventually use the available oxygen too.

It sounds like you are having a good time in Texas. We are looking forward to hearing more of your rep experiences!
Cheers!
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Cables Home
2 Kings 6:15-17

reptoman Apr 28, 2004 01:52 PM

Cable I remeber that in Uromastyx readings in the desert that some of the holes measured in the high 70's with some humidity while it was 100 degrees or more surface temp. Which brings up a good point from your response. I believe that as one goes down in the dirt the air temp and the ambient temp in the ground may vary alot. As mentioned before the variation in temps throughout the hibernation season makes me leary of a straight temp for X-period of time. Anyway I think we have both hit a few highlights of our thinking and experiencial perceptions. I know that the Europeans have had good luck over the years with many hard to raise species because there is a real effort to duplicate the environment, and therefore I would say such an artifical approach I find are used by breeders and others which are not necessarily concerned as much for the animal is the almighty dollar. Anyway I hope some others will chime in on this subject as well. As I said, we have hit some interesting perspectives but I think others may have some good input as well.

tgreb May 05, 2004 12:34 PM

Remember last winter when I was trying to hibernate my S. varius and P. thalassinus and all the problems I had? I lost an adult pair of the petros and an adult female San Esteban chuck. This year I did things as you mentioned and had great luck. Also remember the importance of water. I usually do not offer my common chucks(when I had them) water during hibernation. I did offer the San Estebans and they drank heavily.

Cable_Hogue May 12, 2004 09:45 PM

Hey Tom,
Do you keep HLs? If so, what kind? Just curious.
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2 Kings 6:15-17

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