Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,
I have become this letter. Please read it and write you into the list...

"Dear Group
I am sorry for cross posting this over various mailing lists, forums and bothering you with off topic threads. The below text is a description of the legislation around herptiles in Norway and the implications of getting caught with illegal animals.

As You may know, herptiles are illegal to keep, breed, import and export in Norway.
Norway is 1 out of 2-3 countries in the world where herptiles are illegal. For what reasons?

In Hawaii herptiles are illegal (as far as I understand) because animals who escape from private collections are likely to reproduce and may cause a potential threat to native flora and fauna. This is in my opinion a reasonable reason for banning herptiles in Hawaii.
In Norway the situation is totally different, here the winter is long, cold and there are extremely few herptile species that can survive the harsh climatic condition of the Norway. Why reptiles are illegal in my country? Your guess is as good as mine, probably due to prejudice against herptiles from the part of politicians uneducated on the matter.

Animals confiscated by the Norwegian government are put to death (perhaps with very rare exceptions in the cases of extremely rare and endangered species).
Thursday the police came knocking on my door and all my animals are now considered confiscated. My house is sealed off with police tape and no one is allowed to go into it.

On Monday the police will return to my house with the district veterinary to confiscate my animals. At a near point in the future my animals will most likely be put to death and there is little I can do about it except hiring a lawyer and hoping for a miracle. This is not a call for help for my part, but on behalf of herptiles and herpetoculturists in my country.

I have started a roll call and hope to gather as many signatures as possible as a peaceful protest protest against the Norwegian government?s persecution of herpetoculturists in Norway. I believe that the legislation in my country is wrong and that all herptile species are not unjustifiable to keep as captives. The Norwegian herpetological association has struggled for 12 years to lift the ban on herpetoculture in my country without success so far. We can?t seem to put enough pressure on our government to make things happen.

The roll call I have initiated is also a protest and sharp criticism against animals being confiscated and put to death as a consequence of the Norwegian legislation.

If you agree that governments shouldn?t be so restrictive as to bann all herpetoculture within a country, please take the time to visit the below link and sign the roll call. http://www.opprop.no/opprop.php?id=befrireptiler Please feel free to pass this post onto other relevant mailinglists and forums so that as as many people as possible may sign this role call if they wish.

Again I am sorry to occupy your time with this kind of inquiery, have a nice day.
Best regards
Vålen Gånev (obeligz)
Committee member of the Norwegian Herpetological Association
e-mail/msn: obeligz@c2i.net"
Link

What a ridiculous set of laws! What is the justification for it?

Cheers
Bryan
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne

www.venomdoc.com

This is an interview that was made about 4 hours ago over MSN with a german journalist who wanted to make a story for a german newspaper.
It's full og typos, hard to read and rather long but it should give you a reasonable idea about what things are like over here.
It is unedited, tho, a part is missing due to a PC crash I experianced.

Regards
obeligz

obeligz sier:
Hi Sorry.
obeligz sier:
My PC crashed.
obeligz sier:
I hope I haven't kept you waiting.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
no problem, cause my father had to leave for a very short time. but he´ll be back soon.
obeligz sier:
oki.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
just to sum up again: the reasons are the "danger" of a salmonella "invasion" and the "fact" that exotic animals can´t be kept in a good way. it has nothing to do with the reproducing in nature, which could have bad effects on the native fauna and flora. is that correct? (in norway it would anyway be pretty hard for most herps to survive i guess...
obeligz sier:
well..
obeligz sier:
Here are the formal arguments.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
can you tell me which other countries forbid herps and for what reasons? you mentioned hawaii i guess, and there the reason is the reproducing problem, isn´t it?. ok, i wait.
obeligz sier:
Animal preservation.
Norwegian givernment fears that by allowing herps they will contribute to the endagnerment.
In truth there is no will to remove the law that forbids the import of wildcaught animals so really there is no danger of Norway contributing to endangerment of rare species since it would be illegal to import wildcaught animals.
obeligz sier:
Also.
obeligz sier:
There is the subject of dangerous animals.
The norwegian government fears that the country will be filled with poisenous snakes if herptiles are permitted.
In truth there is no plan for legalising poisenous snakes and this has not been suggesten by anyone at any point.
obeligz sier:
Also...
obeligz sier:
There is the subject that there is insufficient information, whitch is partly true but without dispensations beeing released and without people beeing able to work with animals such information cannot be produced.
obeligz sier:
also.
obeligz sier:
There is the subject of salmonella, whitch we have already covered.
obeligz sier:
Also
obeligz sier:
There is the subject of preservation of Norwegian fauna but as we both know it is next to impossible for any other than the native norwegian species to survive in Norway as winter temperatures in this country can reach minus 60 degrees celcius
obeligz sier:
2 seks.
obeligz sier:
back.
obeligz sier:
was on the phone
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ok
obeligz sier:
but normal winter temperatures are about minus 20 degreed celcius in most of teh country.
obeligz sier:
hmm..
obeligz sier:
I wonder if I have left anything out..
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
even with "only" minus 20°C it is quiet impossibel.
obeligz sier:
yes it is.
obeligz sier:
As far as my knowledge goes there are only 2-3 other species that are non native to Norway that could survive these temperatures and these species are nor suggested legalised.
obeligz sier:
As far as other countries go I'm not up to date.
obeligz sier:
I only know about the situation in Hawaii and very vaguely at that.
obeligz sier:
I think there are 1-2 other countries where herps are illegal also but I do not remember whitch.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ok. just to make sure that i didn´t get you wrong. government thinks that legalizing herptiles would endanger rare species even more, but you don´t want to make wildcaughts legal. they think venomous snakes could be dangerous, but you never asked for legalize venomous snakes.and the only few species which maybe could survive the winter you don´t want to legalize either? so, in fact, you are....
obeligz sier:
in general the herptile hobby is growing in popularity all over the world because herps are more suited than many other countries to keep in large cities where dogs and cats hac ne forbidden in some living complexes, herps don't need to be taken out for a walk and do not cause allergies.
On a global scale I expect the hobby to rise increasingly in popularity in the years to come for these reasons.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
in common with the norwegian government.
obeligz sier:
What do you mean by"in common"?

obeligz sier:
Yopur first statement is correct.
obeligz sier:
(sorry for all the typing errors I make)
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
no problem i do it too. but i mean that all you want is not really against the laws.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
cause you don´t want, what they forbid.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i hope you understand me
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
they don´t want venomous snakes - you either. they don´t want to legalize wildcaughts - you either....and so on.
obeligz sier:
They forbid EVERYTHING.
We want to make a negative list whitch forbids animals that are poisenous, too large (0.5m for lizards and 2m for snakes), animals that are wildcaught AND make the rest legal

obeligz sier:
no need to excuse yourself.
My english is not too good eigther.
It is normal that we can't understand eachother all the time. Different cultures, different people, different perceptions.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
there is maybe one more thing i could do for you. 30 minutes from my city there is an office for wildlife conservation (where you have to tell which animals you keep, CITES-controles and so on.) maybe they could do something? i will try at least. and yes, i understood that they forbid everything. sure.
obeligz sier:
I don't want to bother you too much. If yuo are able to check with the DGHT online and perhaps speak to some peaople there and perhaps give me a name that can give me some formal statements or something then maybe could make a light difference for my part.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
you don´t bother in any way! really, i love reptiles and so i WANT to help you and your animals as much as possible.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i will stay in contact with the dght. and i will try to call some people tomorrow.
obeligz sier:
Since my Ex girlfriend still lives in the same house as me and she had 2 dendrobates species her animals gaot taken away too, but I said to the government that her animals were mine so that she doens't have to get pursued by the law ang get fines and such.
However, as it is illegal to keep herps in Norway I do not have CITES permits for these animals. All I had once were the temporary permits (mor
obeligz sier:
issued by the vendors but over the course of time I have lost these.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
so you think it is better if i not go there?
obeligz sier:
I think that it won't help much because as much as this agency would like to help they are bound by the rules and regulations of your country, the national regulations and my country's regulations so they really are helpless in this subject I would think.
obeligz sier:
Any paper they would be able to produce would make a difference that is so vague that it wouldn't be worth all the work and pain you use to obtain and sent it over here. Ofcourse I could be wrong but..
obeligz sier:
I think there are more constructive ways to work and more improtant matterd to adress.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ok as you want. perhaps you are right. so my father wants me to spaek for him, cause he thinks that my english is still better than his.
obeligz sier:
hehe. Your english is very good.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
so he would like to know, if there is a "name" for this law.
obeligz sier:
hmm...
obeligz sier:
Let me check.
obeligz sier:
Next question.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ok, now this is an unpleasent question. (he is a journalist..hehe) he wants to know, why you keep herptiles when there is this law and you have to expect that they´re taken away and put to death. didn´t you expect that this law would become "reality"?
obeligz sier:
The lwaw is called "the regulation for Ecotic animals" and does not cover only herptiles but all animals that are exotic to norway, For example tigers, monkeys and exotic birds are illekal to keep.
The regulation also covers exotic fish (many of whitch are legal to keep) and herptiles whitch are illegal tok eep
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
so even goldfishes must be illegal if you take them wordly, but in fact they are not, right?
obeligz sier:
It's ok. Ask any questions you may wish.
When I bought my first reptile at the age of 17 I didn't know that it was illegal. Many Norwegians don't know this still. Obnly the tast 5 or so yyears there has been a substantial amount of media coverage on the subject so now most people normally remember vaguely that herps are illegal.
After I bought my first herp I started confersating with other (more
obeligz sier:
people about tthis and soon found out that it was illegal

obeligz sier:
at this point I didn't dare to contact the authorities to ask for a dispensation in fear that the animals I already har would be taken away from me and put to death.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i live in a quiet cold part of germany, where it can be easily minus15°C in winter and goldfishes can survive in garden lakes of people easily. so i guess it could be the same in norway. that is a big contradiction if they worry about they own native fauna...
obeligz sier:
Goldfish are not illegal because they are permitted as a part of the regulation by some paragraph further down (this is a quite long regulation with much paragraphs of types of animals that are exepted from the main regulation.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
so, but normally this fishes SHOULD be forbidden, cause thy could survive in nature if someones fed up with them and brings them in a lake....
obeligz sier:
Yes, It would be, exept winter is harder, longer and colder over here so your goldfish would not outlive one of our winters. Temps here are sub zero for many months of the year and minus 20 deg temps during several weeks at a time several times during a winter are comon.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i am really astonished how stupid and how full of contradictions laws can be.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ok i see.
obeligz sier:
take scorpions and tarantulas as example.
The law forbids waxworms because they are a pest to bee farmers.
Tarantulas and scorpions are allowed.
Sevearly poisenous scropions and tarantulas are sometimes sold in petshops but still the most harmell little gecko is illegal and will be confiscated and put to death if found in ssomeones home.
Even the poliece don't like this, in most cases the (more)
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
and you said, that you can by vivariums and so on (even crickets, cockroaches and other feeding insects??) legally? so what do the police or government think people buy those crickets for?
obeligz sier:
poliece tries "not to see" illegal animals but with cases such as mine where someone has reported illegal animals then the poliece has no choice but to apprihend the criminal (in this case me) and bring him to justice. you already know the fate of the animals.
obeligz sier:
crickets and roaches are eaten also by scorpions and tarantulas.
Feeder mince are also sold (frozen only) in petshops, this is something tarantulas don't eat I think...yes?
obeligz sier:
vitamins made especially for herptiles are also sold in petshops,.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
yes, . so what is your exactly position in your organistion, when was it founded and what (except the legalizing) are you working for?
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
and since when are you a memeber of this?
obeligz sier:
UV lighting is not used for any other type of animal than herptiles as far as I know, they are also sold in petshops (Fish UV lighting is a different matter, they are ofcourse available here also)
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i am sorry...it sounds like an stupid interview....but in fact that´s what it is i guess for the moment.
obeligz sier:
well..
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
it reminds me germany and marihuana.....it is forbidden to smoke, but you can buy waterpipes and all stuff you need everywhere...
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
well i don´t want it to legalize, i just don´t care...
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
(the marihuana i mean, not your reptiles of course..)
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
with the uv light you are right. yes. i only use it for my reptiles...never for invertebrates.
obeligz sier:
I am a member of the cometee of the board of NHF (Norwegian Herpetological ascociation), we are in fact 5 members of the comitee and we run the NHF.
It was founded in 1970 I think (I'm not sure, I'll check but it will take a few mins, I'll get back to you on that)

lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ok.
obeligz sier:
when herptiles were forbidden in Norway in 1977 the NHF was pout to sleep but it woke up 12 years ago to start fighting the government and it's legislation.
obeligz sier:
In essence..
obeligz sier:
Norwegians that keep herptiles are afraid to get caught, most ppl who keep herps here don't dare to join the NHF in fear of exåposing themselves and their pets.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
how do you mean "put top sleep"? you were not allowed to make any publications or did the organisation just lost their will?
obeligz sier:
In reality the NHF at present has less than 200 members. A bpathetic number I know but this represents the boldest part of enthusiasts in Norway that are not that easily threatened by the law.
obeligz sier:
lost the will, stopped funtioning, in brief nothing at all happened, no meetings no chairman, no nothing
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
but you were never really forced to stop your aactivities? (it is just important to know that exactly)
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
and i understood right, that if somebody goes to a vet, f.e. with a turtle, the vet has to inform police? or are they doing it by their own will?
obeligz sier:
well. people were afraid to continue their activities in fear of getting caught. This is why everyone went underground and the government lost all control over import, export everything else in the hobby.
obeligz sier:
No. about the vets...
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ok.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
"We want to make a negative list whitch forbids animals that are poisenous, too large (0.5m for lizards and 2m for snakes), animals that are wildcaught AND make the rest legal " is that the official thing you wnat to do, and will there be some exceptions. (like iguana iguana for the size as it is a nondangereous reptile)

obeligz sier:
It has been like this
I don't know the whole history as I have only been in the country since 1986 (I'm born in Bulgaria)
and I have only kepts herps for 7 years.
But for as løong as I can remember it has been very difficult to find vets that take in herps.
First, because as herps were illegal vets didn't recieve the proper education to treat herps, second, people were afraid to go to vets (more)
obeligz sier:
In fear of getting exposed.
If you have 10 animals and 1 gets sick you try to treat your sick animal yourself or take ir to a friend (if you know any other people who share the same hobby) and if not then most people just "sacrifice" the 1 sick animal so that don't need to endanger the remaining 9 (more
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
but it is not an illegal action if a vet helps an ill herptile?
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i mean if a vet could get in trouble for that
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
sorry i ask to fast...
obeligz sier:
In the past years there have been only 2 vets that have treated herps as far as I know. ! of these vets charged absurd prices for long periods (I paid about 425DM back then to treat a tockay gecko with a tumor on it's mouth.
The last vet is now a collegue in the NHF
The last 2 years many others I have worked to spread the word that people can treat their herps at most vets and that vets (more)
obeligz sier:
do not have to report the animals. The vets CAN choose to report illegal animals but we have encouraged paople to go to vets anyway but to appeal to the ethic responsabilities of vets --> to treat animals and save their lives, not to kill them by reporting them.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i understand. what about the other thing i asked you a little bit up?
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
"We want to make a negative list whitch forbids animals that are poisenous, too large (0.5m for lizards and 2m for snakes), animals that are wildcaught AND make the rest legal " is that the official thing you wnat to do, and will there be some exceptions. (like iguana iguana for the size as it is a nondangereous reptile)

lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
this
obeligz sier:
yes?
obeligz sier:
yes.
obeligz sier:
well..
obeligz sier:
In order to be able to approach the government and to have a chance of reaching a negotiation level with them we had to make some sacrifices.
None of us (NHF) wanted to exclude animals such as iguanas but as there is little knowlegne about how complex iguanas are and what complex behaviours and feeding habits they have we chose to make this sacrifice to be able to keep a serious dialogue at all.

obeligz sier:
At first we proposed a "negative" list with a proposition to legalise reptiles but to exclude a large number of species.
This war full out rejected, we were laughed at by some instances of the government.
after that...
obeligz sier:
We were forced to try a "positive list"
This is a small list containing a few species that were proposed legal. I think taht this species contains 3-4 geckoes, a couple of turtles, 3-4 amphibians and some snake species.
This was also rejected but atleast we aere able to keep a serious dialogue with the government.
obeligz sier:
Then early last year the government officially wrote in a summary that they wanted to soften up rhe regulations around herptileS (nore the prurial S) but they did not want to allow import and export on Captive bred animals (WC improts is ofcouse not a topic at all)
obeligz sier:
after this the government went through a reoprganidation and what was once the department of agriculture was taken away and all the people who we had spent several years to educate along with it.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
what do you mean with this: "reoprganidation"`? sorry...
obeligz sier:
after that the new stupid I don't rememner what I called it (futher up) was made
obeligz sier:
and we have to start working with a new set of people and educate them in herptiles
obeligz sier:
we have to teach them what a herptile is, that not all are poisenous, dangerous and so on and so on
obeligz sier:
sorry for that...
Major type error..
reoprganidation= reorganisation
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ah ok. thanx
obeligz sier:
hehe
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:

obeligz sier:
anything else?
You seem very quiet.. surprised over our situation?
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
yes, sure i am surprised. but i just wanted to let you tell me as much as possible
obeligz sier:
hmm..
obeligz sier:
let me see if I have forgotten something..
obeligz sier:
hmm.. Nope. I think that about covers the historical part of the subject.
What buggs me bigtime is this tho..
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
but in your positive list there are still no clearly defined species as i understood. the definition is about size, venomous or not, and if it is herd to keep? like some chameleons will be still forbidden as they are not easy to keep.
obeligz sier:
The government has now formally stated they they want to soften rhe regulations up a little but still:
When beaople like me get caught (and they do every now and then) it's always the same WHAM they take the animals and kill them as fast as popssible before someone has a chance to protest or do anything.
My case has been an exeptional one this time tho:
My animals have survived for a long (more)
obeligz sier:
time by Norwegian standards, In some cases the animals are killed even before the species are identified by the proper authorities.
obeligz sier:
there is a definition of a list but it is of no use anymore as it didn't come through.
We are thinking of going back to fighting for the "negative list" since we think that the other sollution was very unjust and unethical.
obeligz sier:
On the "positive list" there were animals like corn snake, leopard gecko, fattail gecko, milk frog and common boa aswell as small python species.
obeligz sier:
here is the old "positive list" suggestion it's in norwegian but if you scroll down you'll see the names of the species.
obeligz sier:
http://www.noherpetologiskforening.homestead.com/files/Positivliste_-_dokumentHTML.htm
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i don´t know what milkfrog and fattail gecko is in german...can you give me the scientific name?
obeligz sier:
yes, check the link.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ok
obeligz sier:
hmm it seems I was wrong, The limit on snakes was 3 meteres and on lizards 60 cm.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i will remember. but this is what you actually want to propose or did you propose it already?
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
one second. i´ll be back in a minute
obeligz sier:
did. This list was made before I joined the NHF
I want to change this list and I think there's a strong will for this in the NHF too.
The thing is that the NHF is a little waek right now.
12 years of rejections from the government has taken it'æss toll on the comitee.
I'm "new blood" in the NHF so to speak, full of enthusiasm and so on..
But as soon as I started to show my nose out a little (more)
obeligz sier:
more on the internet and started educating the people and motivating them to fight for their cause then it seems I'm mysteriously contacted by the poliece andit seems my legs are broken now (methaphorically speaking ofcourse).
all my animals except the rarest onea are gone and all animals are likely to get killed by the end of the week...
obeligz sier:
But I refuse to give up at this point.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i am back
obeligz sier:
If anything I'm only more agitated. Seeing how much support I have recieved both nationally and internationally I can't just give up on the cause.
obeligz sier:
nods.
obeligz sier:

lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i am seriuos when i say that mayn people can take you as an example. cause in your situation many people would surely have put their head in the sand, afraid to get even more trouble with the police if they hold against them
obeligz sier:
well...
obeligz sier:
since I got caught on thursday I've had atleat 50 invitations of people why want to "steal" my animals while I'm at the gas station filling gas infront of a camera..
I did not want to choose this option because it will have implications for people who get caught after mer and besides..
obeligz sier:
I have to concider taht I work in dialogue with the government, I can't allow myself to act more like a criminal than I already am..
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
sure it would not have been very clever to giv e your ok to that stealing action. it would have helped maybe your animals, but as you said, only yours...
obeligz sier:
Since Thursday I think that I have slept on average 4 hours per night, the rest I've spent working for this cause..
obeligz sier:
I'll see my lawyer, the poliece, the media a,d I also have an appointment with a psychologist tomorrow..
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
with a psychologist? did they tell you to do that?
obeligz sier:
no.
obeligz sier:
But it may help my cause.
obeligz sier:
To tell you the truth I'm exhausting absolutely all possibilities I have at the moment,
My animals are very dear to me, I will attempt to pursuade the psychologist that in fact I'm very attached to my animals (whitch is true) and that I would sufefr a great depression if they were taken from me and put to death.
obeligz sier:
Hopefully the psychologist can write me a note that I can implement in my application and hope that this factor will maybe be concidered (besides the fact that some of my animals are rather rare...
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
that´s a good idea. yes. if this would happen to me, i would not know what to do, and sure i would get an "psychologic attest"...that´s really good...
obeligz sier:
I also hope that by going throug all this I'm able to write something meaningful about it so that I can help the people who get caught after me. Someone has to succeed at some point, right?
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
absolutely right.
obeligz sier:
so where I come to short maybe others after me will succeed..
obeligz sier:
But as it is right now it feels like I'm hitting my head against a brick wall...
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i guess it will be ok, when your name is mentioned in the article?
obeligz sier:
My name is Vålen Gånev, on the net I normally use "obeligz" (with a little "o".
You are free to use any of those.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ok, so maybe it could be interesting in which city you live. (it makes it "sounding" more complete if you understand)
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
and your age maybe
obeligz sier:
I din't mind at all. ^_^
I'm 24
I'm born in Bulgria
Moved to Norway in 1986
I now live in Oslo
And I plan to go back to school to study for a veterinary.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
specialised on reptiles?
obeligz sier:
not possible here in Norway (herps are illegal)
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
even to learn about that. ok.
obeligz sier:
and I can't afford to study outside of norway.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
you are born in bulgaria. so your nationality i bulgarian?
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
or did you change maybe?
obeligz sier:
I have both Bulgarian and Norwegian Nationality but I now concider myself as norwegian as I'lve spent the last 17 years of my life in this frozen stupid country..
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
one last question: when did you start your interest in herptiles? and are you mainly interested in reptiles, amphibians, invertebrates or all?
obeligz sier:
I have always been interesten in herptiles.
When I was 4-5 we used to go to our summerplace in Bulgaria where we used to catch lizards and grass snakes whitch we ofcourse weren't allowed to keep and whiitch we always released.
When I was small I was taught that lizards and snakes are beneficial animals that eat mosquitos and mice.
In norway they teach their children that snakes are slimy and (more
obeligz sier:
dangerous.
obeligz sier:
My fascination if for geckoes.
I love all kinds of herptiles but I'm especially fascinated by arboreal geckoes.
obeligz sier:
My favorites are Tockay geckoes, Lepidodactylus lugubris and Rhacodactylus species.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
tokays are fantatsic. i had some some years ago too.
obeligz sier:
I got some of mine quite tame, Wonderful animals. They are much nicer than their reputation. ^_^
obeligz sier:
I was working on my F2 generation of CB tockays when my animals got imponded today.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
mine were typically tokays. biting and some kind of "little assholes" .....but i loved them
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
CB?
obeligz sier:
hehe
obeligz sier:
Captive bred.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ok
obeligz sier:
I've also had the "asshole" variant tockays, my first CW animals were like that.
obeligz sier:
CW=WC=wild caught
obeligz sier:
hmm.. sorry aboyt the "hehe" I meant that about you mentioning you animals as mean..
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i understand . for the moment i keep Tropiocolotes steudneri, Chameleo calyptratus, Iguana iguana, Iguana rhinolopha, Anolis carolinensis, Pantherophis guttattus (whichwas Elaphe guttatta as you might know), Salamandra salamandra and many different tarantulas, insects and scorpion
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ja, i understood.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
for the iguana rhinolopha i got into troubles too, because i had no papers for him...
obeligz sier:
I've also kept anaoles in the past, Loved them also.
I have wanted an iguana for a long time but I feel that I've never had enough space to build a large enough enclosure
obeligz sier:
I hope you sorted out the paperwork part?
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
so i had to convince people that he was not a wildcaught....he was bought by a small child 8 years ago into a zooshop imn denmark. after a couple of months he grew to large for their vivarium and the parents brought hime to a vet to put him to death, because of his size.... of course the vet didn´t do it , but they refused to take him back home. so they left him there without papers and after..
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i got him
obeligz sier:
oh. I see..
I'm glad that it turned out alright for you.
obeligz sier:
You have such an understanding government.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
but i was lucky....i had to show that i know how to care for him and so on...they forced me to find out the zooshop, but it doesn´t excist anymore.
obeligz sier:
oki..
obeligz sier:
arent this type og iguana more common and easy to get in germany?
obeligz sier:
But anyway..
I have to continue my work to try to save my animals this night, I cave to write mu application for dispensation..any last questions?
obeligz sier:
I'm sorry to press you like this but time really isn't on my side..
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
yes, they sell them in every little shop...and that is a big problem. cause most people can´t care for them due to their size and so on. high electricity billetc..
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
no problem, i have enough information for now and i will tell you all news tomorrow. by email if you prefer.
obeligz sier:
that is one of the reasons why we (NHF) didn't want to legalise iguanas in the first place. too many WC aniomals that are not properly cared for..
obeligz sier:
that would be great. My mail is obeligz@c2i.net
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ok, so i will contact you that way.
obeligz sier:
Do you mind if I use this treascript also?
to futher our cause in Norway and get more international support
obeligz sier:
*transcript
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
you mean what we were talking about all time? sure why not.
obeligz sier:
yes.
obeligz sier:
Thank you.
obeligz sier:
beacuse this is your story and you have the rights to it..
obeligz sier:
you're the reporter tonight.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
hehe...no sure
obeligz sier:

obeligz sier:
ok. By then. Thanks for all the help and We'll talk again soon.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
but one thing.... with the iguana it was the "good will" for one time... it is not really official allowed to me to keep him without papers. they just proposed me that they will "forget it" cause they saw he is well at my home
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
germany is very strict with this laws normally
obeligz sier:
2 secs..
obeligz sier:
was on the phone..
obeligz sier:
That is how it ideally should be.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
if you want to tell about this, you have to keep that in mind. herptiles are allowed here, but only with papers. only in rare cases you can get a "special" allowness.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
papers only for endangered species of course.
obeligz sier:
To tell you the truth I envy you..
I just don't want to give up and move out of norway to be able to keep my animals..
obeligz sier:
I know, I'm familiar with some of the german regulations.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
no, you should not give up of course...until yesterday night it was really always a bg wish from me to move to norway one day..until yesterday...
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
i love your country, although i have never been there
obeligz sier:
I was positively surprised that the last years I have seen fewer and fewer wildcaught animals at the Terraristika expo at Hamm.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
you have been there? i am there almost every year.
obeligz sier:
hehe..
obeligz sier:
I'm also there almost every year. This year I was suppodsed to go to Daytona Florida also..
But I'll probably end up getting a 3000 Euro fine for my crimes and then I can't afford to go. Also I was sopposed to bring with me some leachianus to Daytona whch are now with the government..
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
by the way....my pic on the left is the iguana we were talking about.
obeligz sier:
It's a very nice pic.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
because he is a nice iguana
obeligz sier:

lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
ok, so i don´t want to disturb you working any longer...thanx for the information and we see us tomorrow, ok?
obeligz sier:
oki.
obeligz sier:
C ya.
obeligz sier:
Thanks for everything.
lorien7@gmx.net (E-postadressen er ikke bekreftet) sier:
no probs

(only partial copy & paste update due to lack of time)

Today the district vet and poliece came to my house.
The newspaper I mentioned didn't show up, their loss, one of the TV stations did show up tho.
When we broke the seals to my home today I found some of the animals in a shabby condition. The animals had gone friday thru monday without water or food. Some of them were dehydrated, but all were ok concidering the circumstances. Some of the mice cages didn't have a single drop of water and their pellets were gone but they too had survived, the same can not be said for feeder boxes containing small crickets..
Out of the about 30 geckoes I had thismorning, 20 were confiscated by the authorities.
5 giant geckoes were left in my home so that I could care for them until their fate was descided.
the 5 remaining animals are a small colony of mourning geckoes hatchlings whitch live in my 950 liter tank whitch was also too big to fit thru the door and too heavy to be lifted by 2 persons.
I asked the district vet to be allowed to keep the 5 Mt. koghis leachianus until their fate is descided.
I was allowed to keep them.
This is because I didn't break the police seals and smuggle out all my animals in the past days. However. I am convinced that focus on this case by the medias and pressure by the world around watching this case aswell as friends nationally and internationally pulling strings for this cause has helped alot in this context.

I'm now writing an application for a dispensation to keep my animals and have to finish it during the night and fax it to the appropriate agency before opening time tomorrow.

what happens tomorrow...
9am - going to see my lawyer
11am - interview with national TV
5pm - talk with the police
9pm - appointment with psychologist (see trenscript of interview)

Dear group, thank you for all your support. Spread this info to other forums you frequent so that it may be known what happens to herps here and what shame Norway brings upon itself.

It feels like the whole herp world is watching me right now. This gives me strength to continue fighting.

This time Norway doesn't get to kill innocent animals in all secrecy. This case has coverage in Scandinavia, England, Germany and the rest of Europe aswell as USA, Canada, Australia, India and surely many other Countries and corners of the world that I have not noticed yet.

Thank you - all the world - for caring, and for supporting the reptile enthusiasts in little Norway.

Best regards
obeligz

Anything I can do to help, please let us know. We'll actually be in Norway the 14th - 18th of May. I'm 1/2 Norwegian and I am taking Alexia to visit the family in Oslo for the May 17th celebrations

All the best
Bryan
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne

www.venomdoc.com

Right now there's not much to be done on the matter exept wait and see what descicion the propper authorities make and take up the fight from there but I appreaciate the offer.

Over the course of this case I have come to contact with a large number of individuals that will certainly be of great value in our fight to make herpetoculture legal in Norway.
There's not a doubt in my mind that this incident will speed up the process of getting herps egal in Norway.
However. I have to wait until the case at hand is over, whatever the outcome and then start on the follow up work. at that point you may be a great resource to us.
I think that Sweden is having problems with the legislation regarding hot herps and thair government is giving them headaches in that matter. Also in Norway you may prove to be a valuable recource since we're trying to avoid hot herps initially to be able to keep a dialogue with the government at all but in that context we may run into problems of classification and identification.
I'l try to contact you as soon as possible after my current nightmare is over and I've covered some of the followups on the case.

Thank you for presenting a helping hand
Best regards
obeligz

I'm sorry that it has taken so long between updates on this thread, the last 24 hours have been nonstop work for me.
As I exhaust all my possibilities one by one things are starting to calm down a little around me now and I can concenrtate more on updating forums and such.
Let's see, this has happened since my last post here.

After the interview with the german paper yesterday I started writing my application for dispensation to keep my animals. This took longer than I expected tho, I tried to base my application as much on facts and as little on personal reasons as possible and spent a great deal of time searching and doublechecking info in rhac books by Bauer, Henkel and de Vosjoli. I finished the application for sidpensation around 6am but at that point all my friends were asleep so I had to fax it to the proper authorities without it beeing proof read..
Went to bed, slept 3 hours, meaning, I overslept for the appointment with my lawyer 9am, fortunately I got a now one a few hours later.
11am TV reporters were here, this resulted in a newsflash that was put on the air 6:45pm today. I recorded it but it's unedited and I got to get a computer wiz to edit and put on eglish text before I can publish it.
Surprisingly this newsflash had a very positive angle to it.
This is in part because a friend of mine in the hobby over here has ties within the medias but I also expect this to be a result of the fact that alot of people from all over the world are following this event and therefore both the medias and the district vet are cautious with what they're saying. Again, this would not have been so if it wasn't for all the support I've recieved from abroad. just the fact that you're interested in this case and are following the events happening to me have a great impact on the situation.
But I bear more good news.
I was contacted by Kelly Bertens which had just emailed one of the head professors at a local college in the United States. He is involved with the Zoology department. I have asked on your behalf for information on reptiles, their care, and the risk of salmonella. This is ofcourse great.
It does not me personally alot but it means a great deal to my cause and we will benefit from this greatly in our daily struggle with the government in legalising herptiles in Norway.
Also I was contacted by Mr. Chris Newman, chairman of the Federation of British Herpetologists(www.f-b-h.co.uk) and webmaster of www.cviewmedia.com. He offered me his assistance.
Needless to say I grabbed this great opportunity with both hands and asked him to write me an appeal. Just a little something that he could send to the authorities that deal with my application. I'm certain that whatever comes out of this it's bound to get noticed...
the 9pm appointment with the psychatrist went... well.. not as good as I hoped but still there could be some help in this.. She understood the graveness of the matter and taht I'm very attached to my animals, however, she cannot write out a recomendation in plain text that I should be allowed to keep my animals, this is not possible since she also has rules and regulations to follow. Still, she was concerned with the fact that I'm emotionally unbalanced by the chain of events that have happened the last 6 days and she's also very concerned with the fact that I've had far too little sleep lately. She sent my to my doctor to get medications that will help me calm down and help me sleep..
I'll see if I'll have some time to sleep later tonight.

Btw. Mr. Newman asked for a list of species and I rememberes that I haven't posted these yet..
Here are the animal's we're currently fighting for:
2.0.1 Gekko gecko
ca 20 Lepidodactylus lugubris
2.0.1 Rhacodactylus chahoua
1.0.1 Rhacodactylus leachianus leachianus - Grande Terre morph
1.1.3 Rhacodactylus leachianus leachianus - Mt. Koghis morph
0.0.1 Rhacodactylus leachianus henkeli - Pine Island morph
2.3.0 Dendrobates azureus
1.2.0 Dendrobates auratus

the 5 Mt. Koghis morph leachis are still with me in my home while the rest is at the district vet's ocffice. I had to give him the basics of watering & feeding so that he'd know how to care for them intil their fate is descided..
It seemed like the vet wanted to get rid of these animals as fast a spossible, one way or another.. I don't think that he likes the situation he's in at the moment but he'll just have to care for the animals until the propepr authotities have descided what this direction this case will culminate in..
Well.. I think that's about all for now.
I still have to correspond witha a few people from abroad and update a couple more forums before I hit the medications and the bed..
I'll keep you updated tho things are starting to calm down for the mment, we just have to wait for someone in the government to make some sort of descision and see what happens then.

Regards
obeligz

PS! pass this on to other relevant forums.

PS! For those who can read scandinavian languages there's a more detailed report on the chain of events in the norwegian part of the forums at www.repti.net.

HI mate,

The below might be quite useful. Feel free to disseminate it widely. Also, I would be quite happy to put on official letterhead a statement about the fact that wild caught poison dart frogs steadily lose their toxins and that captive bred lack them entirely.

Cheers
Bryan

ASSOCIATION OF REPTILIAN AND AMPHIBIAN VETERINARIANS RESPONSE TO HSUS
PROPOSAL FOR BAN ON REPTILE PETS.

November 10, 2001

To the editor,

We are writing in response to the recent publication by the Humane
Society of the United States (HSUS), "Reptiles as Pets: An
Examination of the Trade in Live Reptiles in the United States." 
While we applaud HSUS for highlighting many of the problems
associated with the trade in live reptiles, we cannot agree with
their conclusion that the reptile trade must be ended, and that the
sale of reptiles as pets should be banned. Maintaining captive
reptiles can be a rewarding, educational experience, and in some
cases may have significant conservation value. Problems associated
with the reptile pet trade have been noted by conservation
biologists, herpetologists, and veterinarians for decades. These
problems include, but are not limited to, zoonotic diseases such as
Salmonellosis, damage to wild populations of rare species due to over-
collection, introduction of non-native species or exotic diseases,
and animal welfare issues regarding transportation of reptiles and
survival of reptiles in captivity. These are serious concerns;
however, such problems can be overcome by effective education,
legislation, and research.
Caring for a captive reptile, like caring for any animal, can
provide an understanding of the organism that can be achieved in no
other way. It may pique ones curiosity, leading to further, more
advanced study. Most professional herpetologists, reptile
veterinarians, reptile curators, etc. report that maintaining
reptiles as pets was an influential part of their childhood and may
have guided their career choice. As habitat loss and urbanization
continue, maintaining captive reptiles may provide ones only exposure
to these organisms. Individuals that maintain captive reptiles are
likely to be more concerned with local, regional, and global reptile
conservation issues than individuals that have never seen or touched
a live reptile. In her recent book "Why the Wild Things Are: Animals
in the Lives of Children", psychologist Gail Melson investigates the
potential benefit that animals may provide in childhood development.
While the field is largely unexplored, Melson suggests that pets may
play a role in the development of nurturing skills, compassion,
affection, and "may function as a meaning system through which
children make sense of both themselves and their surrounding
environments." We believe that these theories are true, and that
owning a corn snake as a child can be as developmentally important as
owning a dog. Obviously, good judgement on the part of a responsible
adult is needed, and one must ensure that children caring for
reptiles are mature enough to provide proper care and hygiene for the
animal, while maintaining their own safety from zoonotic disease.
Owning a reptile requires a commitment of time and money as
with any pet. It also requires that an appropriate animal be chosen
for a given circumstance, and that ethical concerns be addressed. It
is no more reasonable to think that a large aggressive reptile will
be a good pet than to think that a large aggressive dog will be a
good pet. It is no more reasonable to expect an ill, dehydrated,
imported reptile to adapt to captivity than to expect a parasitized,
parvovirus-infected puppy from a poor source to thrive in its new
home. There are a number of species of reptiles now available in the
pet trade that are born in captivity, remain relatively small, have
known husbandry requirements, and can be obtained in healthy
condition from reputable sources. Examples of species in this
category are bearded dragons, leopard geckos, corn snakes, milk
snakes, ball pythons, and Mediterranean tortoises.   
Salmonella is a well-known zoonotic disease associated with
keeping captive reptiles. Human fatalities do occur from reptile-
associated Salmonellosis. However, we are well aware of the risk of
zoonotic disease associated with owning dogs, cats, birds, horses,
etc, as well as the threat of fatal trauma induced by some dogs or
horses. An estimated three to four million dog bites occur each year
in the US, half of which involve children. Salmonella is just one of
dozens of zoonotic diseases we may get from our pets. Should we avoid
owning all animals to prevent zoonoses? The risk of Salmonellosis can
be reduced by following guidelines established by the Centers for
Disease Control (CDC) and the Association of Reptilian and Amphibian
Veterinarians (ARAV), which are available from the ARAV.
Decreasing the massive importation and exportation of
reptiles may be desirable, particularly for species whose post-
importation survival is known to be poor. As an example, we know that
hingeback tortoises (Kinixys spp.), that were imported by the
thousands from Africa in the past decade, do very poorly in
captivity, as do many, many other species. Ending the trade in such
species would likely be met with little resistance, and is becoming
more practical as more captive-born animals of other species become
available However, we are not in favor of complete shut-down of the
international reptile trade. There are many very motivated,
dedicated private reptile keepers that have made tremendous
contributions to herpetological taxonomy, husbandry techniques, and
conservation based on the availability of imported animals. As an
example, the endangered radiated tortoise (Geochelone radiata) from
Madagascar was first bred in the US by a private individual in the
1970s. The progeny of this individuals group formed the basis of much
of the captive-breeding program for this species later adopted by
zoos throughout the country. More recently, the worlds known
population of the endangered McCords box turtle (Cuora mccordi) has
been nearly doubled by the breeding groups of private individuals. 
Completely eliminating the availability of imported specimens may
prevent the development of captive assurance colonies of species that
are being driven to extinction in their native habitats. While
collection for the pet trade has undoubtedly damaged some species
populations, habitat destruction and consumption in the international
food trade remain the most significant threats to most reptile
species.
Concerns regarding the welfare of animals in transit and in
captivity are valid. Improper shipping techniques and improper
husbandry can result in mortality. However, I believe that the best
approach to this is not to stop the trade in reptiles, but to work to
constantly improve shipping regulations, inspections, penalties for
violations, and dissemination of proper husbandry information. We
have developed techniques to allow the humane movement of other
species, and such techniques can be developed for reptiles. This may
involve decreasing the numbers of animals moved in a given shipment,
and may mean that prices of animals will increase; but such changes
may be inevitable if the demand for healthy, ethically shipped
animals increases. Husbandry techniques have improved greatly in the
past decade and many excellent texts exist for most of the commonly
kept reptiles. Owners that do not provide adequate husbandry simply
have not done their research. This should not motivate a ban on
reptile pets any more than the dog owner who calls their veterinarian
on the day their [bleep] whelps and asks "what do I do?" should
motivate a ban on dog ownership. 
Finally, regarding the issue of the introduction of exotic
disease by imported reptiles, we are quite concerned. It is clear
that the potential for exotic disease entering the US with reptiles
exists. The case of African tortoises imported to Florida, found to
be infected with ticks carrying the causative agent of Heartwater
disease, brought this risk to the attention of many interested
parties. However, this is another situation where research, rather
than banishment, is needed. Since the original incident, and
stimulated by the incident, an effective and safe acaracide has been
identified for use in tortoises. By thinking about the problems,
identifying risks, and increasing the vigilance of monitoring, it is
possible to discover and address previously unrecognized diseases. If
certain diseases are found that cannot be controlled, then an
importation ban on the involved reptile species may be warranted.
In conclusion, we believe that reptiles should be available
as pets. It is desirable to greatly reduce the large-scale sale and
importation of reptiles in favor of supporting the more selective
sale of domestically bred reptiles of relatively easy to maintain
species. The path to this end will involve participation of many
groups, but at the forefront should be individual state governments.
State governments have control over allowing collection of native
animals, as well as which species may be sold in pet stores. In the
past, many states have taken the approach of banning a few
undesirable species, while allowing the sale of all other species.
Perhaps states should consider instead allowing the sale of only
certain species that have been captive bred and have known husbandry
requirements. Provisions for more serious keepers to obtain permits
to maintain restricted species could be issued based on guidelines
established by each state. We encourage the veterinary and
herpetological communities to voice their dissent to the conclusions
of the HSUS Live Reptile Trade report.

Sincerely,

Charles J. Innis, VMD
President, Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians

Teresa Bradley. DVM
Belton, MO

Mark Mitchell, DVM, PhD
Louisiana State University

Elliot Jacobson, DVM, PhD, DACZM
University of Florida

Dale DeNardo, DVM, PhD
University of Arizona

Kevin Wright, DVM
Phoenix, AZ

William Griswold, DVM
Tempe, AZ
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne

www.venomdoc.com

Obeligz--

Hope things are improving for you, your geckos, and those frogs! Try to stay rested.

Elizabeth

Please accept my appology for the late reply.
I do not know how to thank you but we are most grateful for this document. This document will be of great value for the NHF in their fight to legalise at least some herptile species to be kept in captivity in Norway.
The NHF has made a "positive list" of herptiles that are not dangerous or poisenous and that don't grow too big.
It is our hope that we may some day convince our government to remove atleast in part the herptile ban in Norway.

Very best regards
Vålen Gånev (obeligz)
committee member of the Norwegian Herpetological Association

Let me know if you need anything on official letterhead. Also, I'd like to join the Norwegian Herpetological Society (I am very proud of my Norwegian heritage Do you have a website? If not, please send me an email with details

All the best
B
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
Deputy Director
Australian Venom Research Unit
University of Melbourne

www.venomdoc.com

Thank you. I will.
We do have a website but it's in Norwegian.
I guess no one in the NHF has thought about trying to get international support up to now.
We're a quite small association with less than 200 members since no one dares to join since they fear of exposing themselves and risking their animals beeing confiscated.

I joined the NHF as a committee member late last year.
I have been writing some online articles to try to motivate people to seek veterinary assistance when their animals get sick since vets can, but aren't obliged to, file a charge when they discover people who keep herps.
I have also written some caresheets and tips and hints for beginners. about a month ago I wrote an article to motivate people to be more open about their hobby and to try to aducate their freinds about herps and tell them that these animals are not as dangerous as they sound.
I suspect that it's because I stuck my head a little too far out that my government is trying to break my knees and will to fight. Of course this is pure speculation and I have no way of proving this. It may just aswell be one of my neighbours that has filed charges, I don't know and do not wish to spend energy finding out.

I'm still waiting for my application for dispensation to keep geckoes to be processed.
Normally cases like this one are processed vary quickly and the animals killed quite swiftly.
My case has taken exeptionally long time by norwegian standards already.
Maybe the authorities are waiting for this to blow off and for the interest around my case to settle so they can quietly kill the animals..?
I'll keep you updated as things porgress.
The Norwegian herpetological association (NHF) held a meeting today.
We discussed new plan to try to legalise herptiles in Norway.
In the time to come we will contact as many herp organisations around the world to try to gather support.

When I was caught, I found myself alone against my government. I cried for help, the world heard my voice and gave me support.
In much the same manner NHF will contact one by one as many herp organisations as they can to get a written statement of support. As we gather more and more votes of support we hope that our government will eventually hear us and take us serious.
The herp ban only leads to bad things.
The animals often can't get propper veterinary care.
The government has no control over animals in the country.
The entusiasts keeping these animals are scared to get caught and consttantly look over their shoulder.
And the worst part yet, many hundreds of animals are confiscated and put to death every year.

I takled to one of the government officials that are working with this law today. I explained that I represented the entusiasts in Norway. I asked if we could apply for an amnesty, a short period during which enthusiasts could apply for dispensations without animals beeing confiscated and during which applications (if serious) actually were granted.
I informed that such an "amnesty" would be very beneficial for all parts as the government would gain much better control over the animals in the country and the animals would be able to recieve propper veterinary care when needed.
I was informed that such an "amnesty" would mean that the government would de-criminalise criminals and that she couldn't possibly understand why it would do that..

Just a small update at this time since I'm pressured for time..
Today I found out that my aplication was declined one day after I sent it. I wasn't informed until today because apparently the vet that was processing my application was sick and at home for about a week...
So Now I'm working around the clock to formulate a thorough appeal that is well documented.
I have senr requests to several heads of organisations and to other formal persons who's oppinions might count in my case.
I now have maximum 3 weeks to formulate my appeal and send it, I'll try to send it in good time before that.
I have requested that my government that the animals are not put to sleep before my appeal is recieved and processed and was told that my request will be taken under concideration.

Regards
obeligz

Would the government consider sending the animals to another organization in another country? Perhaps an international group such as the Tortoise Trust might be willing to take the animals, even though they are not chelonians.

Katrina

Dear Katrina.
I'm very sad about loosing my animals but at present they're still alive.
From what I'm told by my government I can't suggest an organisation to take the animals.
My government will see if they are able to relocate the animals, if not they'll be put to death.
My isolated case isn't really the most horrifying thing here.
Up to 1000 herps are confiscated and put to death in Norway annually...
Every year more and more prople are getting caught since herps in private collections are breeding and more people are fascinated by the hobby and start keeipng herps.
The best reasons my govenment can give for the herp ban are:
"the animals are a contageous and people may get salmonela from them"
and
"the climate in Norway is unsuitable for such animals"
We have ofcourse tried telling them that herps are kept in heated terariums...
We've also tolld them that the risk of salmonella is not as great as they fear..
but.. they don't seem to listen...

Anyway.
Thanx for your support. )
I haven't given up on my animals yet and I don't intend to in the future eigther.
With all the international focus on my case things just might turn out alright, but even if they don't I've managed to do one positive thing.. To spread the word around about what's happening over here. I think that this will have some positive conxsequences on our dialogue with the government further down the road.

Best regards
Vålen (obeligz)

n/p

A traduated version of the newsflash that was sent on national TV in Noway last week is now available. Thanks to all the people helping me and supporting me back in Norway I got it translated and uploaded to a friends webspace.

http://www.sammern.com/reptiler/vaalen_ferdig_qt.mov (6.7 Mb)

http://www.sammern.com/reptiler/vaalen_ferdig_vcd.mpg (20 Mb)

http://www.sammern.com/reptilervaalen_ferdig_dsl_low.mp4 (1.6 Mb)

http://www.sammern.com/reptilervaalen_ferdig_dsl_medium.mp4 (4.7 Mb)

http://www.sammern.com/reptilervaalen_ferdig_dsl_high.mp4 (11.4 Mb)

All of this is the same clip but filesizes and formats are different.

This is what's going to happen in the time to come.
Since my application was declined I'm going to appeal.
I have started revising old articled I have written earlier and will use these as attachments/enclosures to my appeal.
I have also contacted a number of people and organisations both in Norway and internationally and hope that atleast some of these will be able to provide me with formal statements that geckoes are in fact not the most dangerous animals on the planet and that they can indeed be kept at optimal temps in terrariums indoors even if the temps outside the house are sub zero.

Up to now I've found a nice article on salmonella on the ARAV homepage.
http://www.arav.org/SalmonellaOwner.htm

I've also gotten positive responce from a Swedish herpetologist and teacher Tobbe Helin, he said that he'll try to write something for me soon.

The Norwegian pet trade organisation will try to write a statement for NHF who will be able to pass is on to me.

Also I've established contact with Mr Aaron M. Bauer and will ask him if he could write something for me too.

Other than that I've contacted about a dozen organisations and respected officials but haven't got a response yet, however, it's still early as I sent out the requests recently.

In Norways law it clearly says that dispensations for keeping herptiles may be given. That is the hope I live by for now.
If my appeal should also be declined then my government will try to relocate the animals.
My friend Are Hogner, owner of Oslo Reptile park has sugested that he can take in all my animals but it is up to the authorities to decide wether or not he has room for all the animals.
If my government can't relocate all the animals over at Oslo Reptile park the more common ones like tockays and mourning geckoes are likely to be put to death since zoos in other countries rarely accept "another set of tockays"...

Right now the most beneficial thing that can happen is if I manage to write a good appeal that is accepted.
This will create a precedent and it will greatly help our common cause in Norway.
My personal case put aside, up to 1000 herps are confiscated and put to death annually...
If my geckoes are saved and sent to oslo reptile park then that will change little about the general situation in our country.
Oslo Reptile park can't take in up to 1000 herps annually...

That is why I'm beeing stubborn and not giving in to my government. I'm trying all I can to producce a good appeal.
With national and international media coverage who knows.. I might just succeed.. tho.. If I have to be honest.. chances of that happening are slim...

I'll keep you guys updated as things progress.
The single fact that you care to read this thread makes a difference and has an impact on what's going on over here.

Very best regards
Vålen (obeligz)

I got a letter from the police today.
A Formal letter about confiscation of my animals.
If I sign this letter I agree that my animals can be confiscated. And I will be charged without going to the court. This normally gives a milder punishment..
If I don't sign, I have to give a good reason for not signing, or else they'll come to my house in 5 days to confiscate the remaining 5 leachies I have at home. In this case I will have to go to court.
Problem is.. If I have to go to court it will be too expensive and I won't be able to pay my lawyers fees.. (
I'm not sure what to do. I'll talk about it with my lawyer on Monday.
Maybe I can go to court without a lawyer? I don't know yet..
If I go to court maybe I risk being made an example of.. up to 12 months in jail and up to 7100 USD in fines, depending on the jury's verdict.
I guess it won't be that much since I don't have any CITES index 1 animals nor poisonous snakes, I only kept geckoes and 2 species of dendrobates.
We'll have to see..

WOW, Norway is a load is BS...id loose ALL respect for my government if they were that way...I thought i had it tough in Colorado with the law being no snakes over 6' and NO Venemous snakes at all, i guess they are tough laws compared to MOST USA laws...but you have it TOUGH, that is horrible

Bad news is that I've evaluated my economical situation and found out that I can't affrod to go to court with my case.
It will break me economically.

An interesting turn of events is that friends of mine in the Norwegian herp environment have started a "kronerulling" to help me fund a lawyer so that 'i can keep my animals.
I'm touched by the initiative of my friends. :~)
Unfortunately it may be too late for me to do this but I proposed another thing...
To gather money so that we can go to court against the governments policy against herps and exotic animals in general.

The idea if only on the theoretical stage for now and nothing has been descided yet.
The idea is that if 100-200 people can donate 100-200 NOK (15-30 USD) every month for a year or two then we will gather a conciderable amount of money.
If other Norwegian organisations are willing to participate as well, then we'll gather even more and in time enough to take our government to court.
Early estimates have shown that we need about a halv million norwegian crowns (72.000 USD) to bring the case up to a European level court justice (EFTA or something like that).
This was suggested today and already nearly 20 people have signed up in case we descide to initiate this and start gathering money.

Regarding my particular case nothing new has happened, I'm still writing my appeal and waiting for a reply from the police.

Bzzz! I feel like a little bee in a large beeshive.
Maybe the time has come when the herpetoculturists in Norway realize thet the government has been rounding up our animals long enough...

As my case progresses I stand before an important decision in my life. In one hand I have the fate of my animals which are confiscated by my government and in the other I have my family and myself. My government confronts me with my actions and asks if I want to go to court over this matter. If I choose to go to court I will probably end up being statuated as an example of what happens with criminals like me. This will have economical implications and consequences that will affect my family thru me. I have to choose to either "sacrifice" my animals or my family. The apparent "right" choice is to acknowledge that I have kept geckoes illegally. This means that have to renounce my ideological rights and fundamental freedoms in order to spare my family. I do not have the conscience to burden my family economically in order to go to court and fight for the rights of herpetoculturists in Norway.

There are however a few last things I can do in attempt to postpone signing the papers my government sent me. I am charged by §48 in the Norwegian law about wild animals whereby game that is illegally killed or illegally held captive should fall in the property of the government.

My question is. Are captive bred geckoes considered wild animals? What is the definition of a domesticated animal? Can a gecko who bears the same genes as it's wild relatives be considered a wild animal? If geckoes in captivity are to be released into the wild to strengthen wild populations they have to be quarantined in the wild first to ensure that they do not contaminate wild populations with germs that they have acquired in captivity in other parts of the world. Further, Geckoes in captivity are bred and socialised in such a manner that they are less shy and less likely to see other larger species of animals as threats. If captive bred populations are released into their native habitats they have to be monitored to determine if quarantine alone is enough to readapt them to living in the wild.

Does this mean that geckoes are to some extent domesticated and can not be regarded as wild animals (game)?

Is there literature on the ethics of herpetoculture and whether it is ethically defendable to keep such animals in captivity without putting a compromise on animal welfare and animal rights?

Sorry for not making any udates for a while now..
I have been trying to get official statements during the last weeks. Mostly from people in Norway since that what counts the most in my particular case.
I have recieved some interesting statements from abroad tho, this will be valuable for the Norwegian herpetological associations work in our attempt to lift the ban on herps in Norway.

More than 4 weeks have passed since I got caught.

4 weeks ago I sent in an application for sidpensation.
3 weeks agoi it was declined.
yesterday I sent in an appeal.

In the meantime most of my geckoes were sent to Oslo reptile park until the paperwork in this case is settled.

From the looks of things and judging by the papers I read from the government. If my appeal doesnæt come through and if Oslo reptile park doesn't have room for all the animals, the rest will be put to death.
I have not seen any sights of my government evaluating the possibility of exporting any of the animals out of Norway.
I have suggested that I can find a person or a zoo that may be willing to accept the animals but was told that this was not my hjob and that it is up to the authorities to find a place to axport the animals if such descision is taken.

Regarding my appeal I tried to get a health certificate. a friend of mine, a vet that has education in herptiles examined some of my animals and took fecals.
At some point he got uncertain if wether he could issue me a health certificate (even tho he found out that my animals are healthy) without getting into trouble with the authorities.
I called the autorities in hope that they would grant me permission to get health certificates on my animals.
I was not given permission to get health certificates because I'm now regarded as caretaker and not owner of the animals.
Thus I couldn't document that my animals were healthy and that they have been kept under good conditions.
Now that have sent the appeal for my dispensation I don't think that there's much more I can do to keep my animals.

In the future we'll see what is the legislative consequences of my case and what will happen to the animals that Oslo Reptile park doesn't jave room for.

In theory I can get up to 1 year prison and about 8300 USD for keepting geckoes illegally. I hope I won't end up in prison, at elast in theory I shouldn't. ...unless my government descides to statuate an example out of me...

Hey obeligz---

Thank you ever so much for thoroughly updating us on your difficulties. I'm hoping that the Oslo Reptile Park does have adequate space for all your animals. I just signed the roll several days ago...was impressed on how many other folks had already done so! We are all hoping the best for you at this difficult time ;-}

Hang in there, obeligz! We know how you love your geckos.

Thanx for the support. D
I haven't given up on my animals yet.
Oslo Reptilepark will not have room for all the animals.
Are (the owner) is a good friend of mine, he has tried his best.
Amongst the animals that can't get room at Oslo reptile park are:
20-25 mourning geckoes - Lepidodactylus lugubris
1 PI henkeli - Rhacodactylus leachianus henkeli
1 Rhacodactylus chahoua
1 Dendrobates azureus
1-2 tockay geckoes - Gekko gecko

I hope that's everything.. but perhaps there will be more..
Atleast my government has agreed to place the rest of the animals at Oslo Reptile park.
Unless the animals can be placed at a reptile park or if I by some miracle am granted a dispensation to keep them, then the authorities have suggested that the animals are put to death.
Nowhere does it say in the last letter by the government that efforts to export the animals will be made.

In the mean time, after the letter from the government came in another letter was sent to the government from abroad.
I really like this one. D
--------------------------------
Ladies and Gentlemen,

the DGHT (Deutsche Gesellschaft für Herpetologie und Terrarienkunde e.V.) is with roughly 9000 members in more than 30 countries by far the largest herpetological Society worldwide. It´s members are coming from all fields of herpetology – amateurs, scientists, conservationists.

Recently we have founded with similar associations from Austria, the Czech Republic, France, Italy, the Netherlands, Swizerland and the U.K. an Europan network with the name EUFORA (European Forum for Reptiles and Amphibians).

From several countries I have been contacted because of the seizure of geckos and frogs from a Norwegian citizen by the Norwegian Authorities with the threat that those valuable animals could be „destroyed“ by those Authorities.

It is not for us to critisize Norwegian legislation, although it seems to be completely different to legislation in most other countries of Europe. Our concern is the welfare of those innocent reptiles and amphibians.

We urge you to consider to consign them to Zoos or specialist breeding installations outside Norway and offer our help in finding adequate localities. All Rhacodactylus and Dendrobates species are protected and more or less endangered in their respective range states. Captive breeding is an important contribution to relieving pressures on wild ranging animals. (This view is supported by CITES and IUCN!)

We hope that you consider our suggestions in a positive way.

With best regards,

Ingo Pauler
Chairman of DGHT and
Spokesman for EUFORA
----------------------------------

Other than that..
Since I got caught some 5-6 weeks ago, 4-5 other people have been caught. That's everyday life over here.
Tho, the others try to lay low, accept the consecuences of their actions and keep things out of sight of the medias.
A guy got ripped off for 700 USD (5000NOK) when attempting to buy some albino pythons, he never recieved the animals, of course, one could say that it was his own fault but still this wouldn't happen if herps were legal here.
On the other hand.. If people didn't keep herps here none of this would happen in the first place but...
most people here find this ban unreasonable and choose to keep herps anyway.

But anyway..
I'm still waitning for a reply from the police and from the authorities that are processing my appeal for dispensation to keep geckoes.
I'll try to keep this thread updated..

Best regards
obeligz

Hey obeligz---

You're quite welcome, obeligz. Only wish that I could do more.

I'm so thankful for the animals which your friend Are has agreed to care for at the Oslo Reptile Park. It saddens me to hear about the rest of your brood :-[

Just think what an educatinal experience it would be for Norwegian schools to have these animals---even herpetology departments at Norwegian universities! (Do your universities have herp departments?) These critters don't live as long as most of us do!

Many thanks to DGHT, EUFORA, and Ingo Pauler for such a wonderful letter of support.

Your sharing of your plight has opened many eyes and, I'm certain, lifted many eyebrows worldwide. I now cherish the freedom I have to actually keep some of these very same geckos, the Lepidodactylus lugubris which I've had since August 1988.

Keep on keeping on,
Elizabeth (EBF)

Thanks Elizabeth
Sorry for the late reply/update..

No, as far as I know there are no herps in any norwegian schools or official departments (asize from the freezer of the Norwegian food safety Authority, who are the ones that put to death confiscated animals).

As my case continues there's new things happening all the time but nothing worth while mentioning really.

The police sent me a "letter of confiscation" which I had to sign but I didn't since it was based on the wrong law.
My animals were attempted confiscated after the norwegian "gamelaw".
I searched high and low for means to prove that my animals don't fit the definition of "game" and finally I found it.
"game" in the norwegian "gamelaw" are: "animals who can survive in Norwegian nature and potentially can form vild populations"

Of cource, by this definition none of my geckoes and dartfrogs fit in the game law so I talked to the poliece and they will now try to find another law based on which they can confiscate my animals.

In the mean time. since my application for dispensation to keep 4 gecko species in captivity was declined I sent an appeal, this was some 5-6 weeks ago? the appeal was declined by the local food safety authority and was sent futher up in the system. I'm still waiting for an answer from that hold tho I must admit, I'd be quite surprised if the appeal was accepted.

bye for now. )
Best regards
oby