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By Ashley Gerwig
TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Saturday, April 24, 2004

A Butler County man who raises and exhibits exotic snakes was bitten by one of his own Friday morning, sending emergency officials racing to find an antidote.
A Monocle cobra bit Brad McCarthy, 44, of Mushrush Road, Penn Township, on the hand about 8 a.m., neighbors and officials said. He was rushed in an ambulance to UPMC Presbyterian hospital, Oakland. Hospital officials last night declined to comment on McCarthy's condition.

Getting McCarthy an anti-venom and transporting him to the hospital proved an adventure -- all with the clock ticking and the snake's deadly venom at work in his veins.

Because of poor weather conditions, LifeFlight helicopters at the Butler County Airport were grounded yesterday, forcing emergency responders to send him in an ambulance, authorities said.

Authorities contacted the Pittsburgh Zoo & PPG Aquarium about obtaining an anti-venom, but the zoo doesn't keep a Monocle cobra and didn't have the anti-venom on hand.

Pittsburgh Zoo officials called the Columbus Zoo. Officials there had the medicine flown to UPMC Presbyterian, authorities said.

Monocle cobras inject a neurotoxin into their victims, said Henry Kacprzyk, curator of reptiles and Kid's Kingdom at the Pittsburgh Zoo. The toxin causes light-headedness, falling blood pressure, respiratory distress and ultimately death, he said.

Kacprzyk said the zoo receives about three calls a year from hospital officials looking for anti-venoms for poisonous snake bites. The last call -- also for a Monocle cobra bite -- came about a month ago, he said.

The snake can be up to 6 feet long. Its name comes from markings that resemble an eyepiece.

Kacprzyk said many snake owners are unaware that local hospitals likely don't have the needed anti-venom on hand. Anti-venoms, made from horse antibodies, can cause a deadly reaction in certain people, he said.

"Some people assume the local hospital will have what they need," he said. "That can be a deadly mistake."

Kacprzyk said zoo workers, who handle the poisonous snakes with a long hook, do not recommend people keep them as house pets.

"Poisonous snakes and people are a bad mix," he said.

Pennsylvania has no laws prohibiting residents from owning exotic pets, Supervisor Douglas A. Roth said.

McCarthy displays his snakes at various shows, including the Big Butler Fair and the Butler Farm Show, neighbors said.

Roth said McCarthy for years has raised the snakes in a basement in his home in his rural neighborhood with no problems.

"He's been doing this for a good while," Roth said. "He knows what he's doing."

Neighbor Bobbie Taylor said she's taken her daughter to see McCarthy's snakes. She described McCarthy as a kind man well-liked by neighbors.

"I've always liked him," she said. "But I always told him, 'You got to get rid of those snakes. They're going to get you.' "

Ashley Gerwig can be reached at agerwig@tribweb.com or (724) 779-7112.
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Bud

then he would have either had the A/V himself or had an emergency contact who had some...basically he would have had access to it. This is a basic rule to keeping any exotic hot! Know where your A/V is! Or don't keep exotics!

AP

If you don't know him personally, than keep your opinions to yourself. He is a great guy that has done alot for the hobby.

Chad

The first sentence, basically reads, man not smart enough to keep own treatment!! I'm sure he's a nice guy and probably experienced with his animals......however, he should have had his own serum. I understand he is O.K. which I am certainly glad for. But due to whether conditions, and the copter not flying that day, if he would have received even a "normal" envenomation let alone a severe bite, he would be dead now. headlines would have said
"second exotic snakebite fatality in as many years, No serum available once again"

For those of you that know him, you need to encourage him to get his own serum or get rid of his snakes!

The next time, (Hopefully there isn't a next time) you will be attending his funeral.

"Don't let friends drive drunk" is a good analogy,
don't let friends keep without sera!

Taphillip
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

Did Don ever tell you that story when he was bitten by a mamba, then rode it out at a dinner with some friends? Also, did you ever as a private person get USDA and FDA permits, or did you take over Don's position and walk into it? Beastly blessings, TF

for reitterating what I said...I don't know this guy, I'm glad he's okay, but all I said was if he's keeping exotic venomous, he should have serum. Assuming the news article is correct on this point (as others have shown inaccuracies in it), he had no AV. I'm sorry, but no matter how experienced a handler you are, or how much you've done for this hobby, having immediate access to AV is a basic responsibility in keeping hots. For native hots, it's as simple as a trip to the hospital. For exotic, it is the responsibility of the keeper. Even if he had found AV from a zoo or whatever, I'd still be posting commenting that he should have stocked his own: It's not the zoos or anybody else's responsibilty to cover your ass if you get bitten! That's a rule that goes for anyone, no matter how revered or respected they are in this hobby. I'm not going to apologize for my post, as I'm sure he's a great guy and all, and I'm glad he's okay, BUT HE SHOULD HAVE HAD AV. 'Nuff said.

AP

The "experts" are ganging up on me again!

What I'm saying is...How can you make a statment like "he is dumb, or doesn't know what he is doing" if you don't even know the guy? I know for a fact that one of you guys sell venomous to people that don't keep A/V.

I never said he should't keep A/V, but come on, you never kept a venomous species you didn't keep A/V for? I've been tagged by a Pakistan cobra (N. naja), and a Jameson's mamba (D. jamesoni kaimosae), and did not keep A/V for them at the time. Does this mean I don't know what I'm doing, or I'm stupid? I guarantee you I know as much or more than "most" people that come to this forum.

I'm not trying to start anything, but have some respect for people you know nothing about.

Chad

First off, I never said he was dumb. Second, I never claimed to be an expert. Third, I would NEVER keep a species that I either did not have AV for or didn't have immediate access to (as in another local keeper willing to provide the serum in case of a bite). If you don't have immediate access, or are relying on a zoo (which is highly unethical in my opinion, they need it for their keepers), then you are being irresponsible. If you can't afford the AV, you can't afford the snake.

AP

So another local keepers A/v is ok to use up, but a zoos is not? What if that local keeper was bitten after you used up their A/v stock, and did not have enough to cover it? Would it be ok to use the zoos stock then? The point is, this issue can go both ways, and we all need to stick together, or the venomous hobby will die to ignorance umongst eachother.

Chad

IF YOU HAVE AN AGREEMENT (COME ON, I WASN'T SUGGESTING JUST CALLING UP JOE SCHMOE AND SAYING "GIME ME AV" WITH ANOTHER KEEPER THAT IN THE CASE OF A BITE, YOU HAVE ACCESS TO HIS AV, THAT'S HIS RIGHT TO ALLOW YOU. ASSUMING THE ZOO IS GOING TO HOOK YOU UP WITHOUT PERMISSION IS UNETHICAL, MAKING AN AGREEMENT WITH ANOTHER KEEPER IS NOT. YOU SEEM TO BE SELECTIVELY READING WHAT I AM SAYING. YOU KNOW I DIDN'T MEAN IT THAT WAY.

AP

not having immediate access AV doesn't mean you don't know anything about snakes or that you are dumb...it means you might be the greatest herpetologist in the world, but you don't have any COMMON SENSE! So no, I don't doubt your worldly knowledge about snakes, but if you got bitten by (lethal) snakes you didn't have AV for, I DO DOUBT YOUR COMMON SENSE.

AP

Obviously it's always better to keep AV for whatever you keep. However, how many of the members of this forum keep one of the many Atheris? How many keep Aspidelaps? What about Thelotornis? I know for a fact that some of the people that have came down on me for not keeping my own AV keep one or a few from at least one of the above groups, and guess what, there is no AV even made for those snakes! Sure the former two genera are generally thought of as nonlethal, but are you willing to bet your life on it? The latter group, the twigs, are known to be very lethal, though are often inoffensive (thank goodness). Me personally, I'd much rather keep something I know there is at least a serum made for and know where it is located than keep something like an eyelash viper that I may have a lethal reaction to and just be up a turd creek. Again, I'm certainly not telling anyone to not keep his/her own AV if they can, but before you start calling others out, be careful to check yourselves first.
-Chance

Never have I personally attacked or "called anyone out"
Except for Bud and Deuce.
Buds an O.K guy, we just disagree on certain issues....
Every other post is a general statement trying to help the hobby.
Everyone seems to take things very sensitively...
All I ever say, is the private sector is digging a hole for themselves?
Keeping AV will deter much of said legislation, not all however.
Unfortunately the press got ahold of that story, it was an insignificant situation. Had it not, then it would have been bad.
Chance, you have a good point on the species with no specific or effective antivenom....
My stance on that is only that, with no serum made for those species, at least the person keeping them is not endangering someone else by using available sera up. Only endangering themselves....
As readily available and inexpensive as most sera is, why not stock it for the animals you have. Naja sera is easy to get and inexpensive.
Do I want to aquire Golds Tree Cobras, yes I would love to. no sera available for that species but I am the only one to handle the animals, so it's my ars on the line.... If I left work and did privately, would I keep Naja without sera? Even as easy as they are to work with.....No because I would hate to endanger any of my friends or even people I don't know.
It's all about respect....If I come across differently, I apologize, written on a computer is hard to express truly what you are saying.
I have not attacked anyone ....except Deuce, not even you Chance, even though we strongly disagree on some things. However as I state every time....I think you are a well intentioned beginning keeper, that is a good statement.
If everyone takes it as the "experts" are ganging up on me. Well I certainly don't include myself in that catagory, so move on.
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

There is A/V that works for Atheris & Pseudohaje, and if you are saying that you are the only one who works with Pseudohaje, than I'll have you know that I know of at least 9 other ones out there now.

Chad

OR defensive....believe when I say, I have never jumped on anyones bandwagon.....sheesh.
no I didn't say I am the only that works with them. I have never even seen a live specimen! I was using that as an example....Relax........
I would like them though they are a fascinating species...
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

To be honest Terry, my post wasn't directed at you at all. I have no idea if you have any of the above mentioned snakes. The only thing I know about you is that what I know you do keep, you have AV for, and I think that's great. My post was made at a few others I've came in contact with on this strange road, so sorry if it seemed misaimed.

I do understand you point about your rear being the only one on the line, but the effects to the overall community are the same: bad. I think you are perfectly correct in thinking that the private hot community is about to hit the ditch. With all the ill-prepared bites and escapes here lately, I see it only being a matter of time. Maybe I have been subconsciously moving away from venomous toward retics (and soon Drymarchon) for exactly that reason...lol. In fact, the only venomous that even find themselves in my collection any more are my two canni and one baby typus. Strange huh? Mainly though, or consciously at least, I decided that my rather substantial investment into the retics and desire to work with them as a group made me realize that in order to do so, I'd have to make room. So, I ended up parting with snakes I never thought I'd part with. And you know, funny thing is, people have still jumped on me here and there for getting rid of some of the animals they screamed at me months earlier to get rid of! Such is life though.

Maybe in a few years after my first couple of retic clutches I'll get 10 to 20 vials of the SAIMR polyvalent and try my hand at breeding D. viridis and D. jamesoni. I'm convinced I know what people are doing wrong, hah. Of course long before then I plan to acquire 5 to 10 vials of the Australian/PNG Polyvalent. I thought about getting the taipan specific mono, but if I ever had the chance to acquire one of the other elapids I'd love to keep (red-bellied blacks, mainland mulgas, gwardars, etc), I'd like for what I already have to cover them as well. It may not be too very long before we actually start seeing those snakes avaible in US markets, as Australia seems to be just about to get ready to open up to restricted export.

Anyway, it will certainly be interesting to sit back and see what happens to the private hot community over the next few years. Things seem to evolve so quickly in the herp world, it shouldn't take long for whatever is going to happen, to happen.
-Chance

"Your desire to work with retics, you'd have to make room."
No statement with more truth ever spoken!
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

Good idea to keep antivenom? Yes, definitely.

Good idea to keep kicking a fellow keeper when he's down? Not really, that seems a bit tasteless. I think we should stick to discussing the issues around stocking antivenom, which is the important thing. Most of us don't know the keeper who was bitten or the circumstances of the bite, so it's not really responsible to speculate about it.

All of us who keep, without exception, are at risk of a bite. Tomorrow that could be you or me getting our names dragged through the mud on the news media and on the bulletin boards with varying degrees of accuracy about what really happened. And won't that be embarrassing. So a little courtesy is probably indicated when it's another keeper's turn.

Hey Tan

Yes I agree, while remembering that most bites are our own fault, if one is housing elapids, antivenom is a good idea, and takes pressure off any rescue service having to source it at short notice if we get nailed by one of our charges.

>>then he would have either had the A/V himself or had an emergency contact who had some...basically he would have had access to it. This is a basic rule to keeping any exotic hot! Know where your A/V is! Or don't keep exotics!

Since I have had the pleasure of visiting Brad's collection, I can vouch for him being an extremely serious and competent keeper (as well as being extremely helpful and generally a great guy) who practically everyone on this forum, including those now dragging his name through the mud, could learn a heck of a lot from.

Those of you who are so adamant that everyone who has a hot must also have their own antivenom, and so quick to criticise others, would be well advised to start lobbying to make antivenom importation into the US easier, or, more realistically, to get together to set up antivenom banks so that everyone can have access without spending half their lives dealing with the resulting bureaucracy.

In other words, put your time and money where your mouths are.

Cheers,

WW
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WW Home

Very respectfully, I have to disagree with you. Blaming the red tape involved in getting foreign AV is dodging the issue at hand. When was the last time someone held a gun to a keepers head and demanded he start keeping mambas? I've never heard of it. It seems people are too keen on aquiring the animals and not keen enough on aquiring the AV. It's not that hard. I'm getting the permits. It just requires a little bit of patience and about 2 months for the applications to get processed. If you can't wait that long, then you don't have patience to be keeping hots period. Of course by "you", I don't mean you personally, just anyone wanting to keep exotic hots.
As I stated before, I'm sure Brad is a nice guy and an experienced keeper and I'm sure I and everyone else could indeed could learn a lot from him. But the fact that he didn't even have an outside source of AV (an agreement with another keeper, or knowing of a zoo, though i feel it's unethical to rely on their supply), much less his own. The fact that he survived was through no deed of his own, it was luck. Next time, you might be visiting your friends casket instead of his collection if he doesn't aquire some serum.

Regards,

Abhishek Prasad

Hi Abhishek,

I don't think we disagree all that strongly - I do agree that keepers *should* make the effort to get AV, and that it is not other people's responsibility to do it for them. However, how many here have never cut corners, in something or other if not with regard to antivenom for exotic hots? I know I have (with other things), and I would be amazed if others haven't. That's why I found the general tone of the discussion (not anyone specifically) going too far into the "look at that dummy, ha ha ha" direction.

One of the things I have learned again and again is that as you make the taking of safety precautions more and more difficult, an increasing number of people will stop taking them. Making the importation of antivenom difficult (not insurmountably so, but nevertheless enough to be a pain in the backside) results in fewer people getting it. I salute you for not being in that category, but I also understand those who are.

Consider the following analogy: if the sale of condoms were retricted, would that result in (i) fewer people having sex or (ii) more people having unprotected sex? I think we both know the answer to that. The situation with restricting a/v importation is the same.

The constructive proposal remains to pool money and the pain in the backside factor of dealing with bureaucracy among keepers and establish antivenom banks - it's been done in Florida and some European countries, there is no reason why it can't be done in the USA. That would help everybody while spreading the cost and the workload.

Peace,

Wolfgang
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WW Home

Dr. Wuster,

I agree with most of what you say. The hassles of aquiring foreign AV, which are a pain, but not nearly impossible, can definately be a deterrent for one to aquire their own serum. But for me at least, being in a pine box for eternity is more of an incentive to go the extra distance and aquire AV. Also, I don't want MY hobby to burden anyone else. If I am keeping some Naja and I have AV stocked, and all the local keepers know, and one day someone gets bitten and they come knocking at my door, can I really refuse them (as much as I'd want to)? The moral obligations are almost concrete, I'd be blacklisted and heckled and maybe even sued if I refused to give up my serum. But why should I have to put myself at risk (by not having AV) to help someone else? As stated before, if there was an agreement with another keeper that he could have access to my AV or vice versa, that's fine. I personally would not make this agreement with anyone that I didn't feel was extremely competent. That's purely because the likelihood of them needing it is exponentially less than Johnny Snakebite who gets tagged every few months and drains all the local serum supplies. In NM there are a few such "Johnny Snakebites" that I've heard of...

As for the venom bank, I've always thought it was a great idea, albeit full of potential problems. But then again, what in this life isn't?

AP

that members who pay annual dues to have access to AV are often times not the ones who get bitten. It's the f***h*** who went and got a cobra after watching Aussie Irwin tailing one on TV. He surely doesn't pay anything, but when he gets bitten, the AV bank can't refuse him the treatment. So basically all the responsible keepers paying dues every year to have access to antivenin are paying for the people who don't want to pay anything for it. I believe this was the case in FL, or so I've been told. I have issues with paying my hard earned money for someone else's mistakes. I do it enough in other parts of my life, I don't need to do it in this hobby!

Personally, you will never find a hot in my collection without the AV for it readily available (either stocked in my fridge or in another keepers fridge who has granted me access to it), this of course pertaining to snakes that have AV. As for species that don't have AV, that's on a case to case basis, and I'm not going to slag on anyone for keeping a snake without AV if the AV doesn't exist. My main gripe is relying on others to cover for your mistakes. If you're gonna keep the snakes, keep the AV. Occam's Razor: The simplest answer is usually the best one.

AP

was the lack of pre arranged protocol....not having said serum is one "dumb" mistake. not knowing where it was is the really "dumb" mistake.
This by no means makes this individual "dumb" Just made a couple of big "dumb" mistakes.
The question is....Is he as well as others going to make the same mistake AGAIN?!!!!
If so, than that DOES make one truly "dumb"
Just my 2 bits
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

Where does it say that he (Brad) did not know who to contact to get the antivenom? Oh That is right the press and they are always right. They do not blow things out of proportion like you guys are. I personally know Brad and what happened and what went on that day after the bite. You guys don't you know what you read or heard in the paper or news PERIOD. Since you are all experts on venomous and antivenom write a book about it.

Chad Umbaugh

lets see...they contacted one zoo...they didn't have the serum, so they had to go to the next closest zoo. and long story short he is damn lucky that they had it. or else they would have gone to the next zoo and the next....did they even use the serum????
Huh, sorry to offend you, being friends and all. funny that you are such a great friend that you can come to his defense. but yet not a good enough friend to encourage him to keep his own sera???? Thats what a good friend does...at least in my book. Granted different people treat their friends differently.
And Pointedly I might add, there is no need to come to his defense, he made the same mistake most of the bites to private keepers in the last five years make....no sera!
No need to defend him, NO ONE HERE HAS EVER ATTACKED HIS CHARACTER!
Go ahead, ask HIM if the whole thing was stupid! If he is as good as everyone else says than he will be the first to admit it!
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

Terry,
Print your book so all of us can read it and be perfect like you. That is how you are coming across to me. Someone who has all the answers. If you want to say what kind of friend I am, say it to my face and use your smartness then. Everyone knows this was a mistake and fortunatly he is OK. But for you to only know so what you read or heard about this and act like you have all the answers is a joke. Even if he had the antivenom do you know it would not have hit the news? I am not tring to fight with you Terry but you acting like you are goddly is irratating me. Plain and simple it was a mistake and thank god he is OK.

Chad

it's not godliness.....it's common sense.
I don't care anymore if it hits the news. I really don't.
IT's the Human endangerment, many of which are MY friends, in the zoo community. So if you want to get defensive about OUR PERSPECTIVE friends, keep that one in mind.
Yes thankfully he is ok! Hopefully he is not endangering the Columbus Zoo staff by making them work with out cobra serum!
Your upset about my arrogance? than you don't listen to what I say, you presume my tone of voice.....try listening and not being so damned argumentative.
Irregardless of how you take what I say, it's the actual words that are important!
Sheesh
Later
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

This case is a good example of why antivenom is necessary. Even if Brad did know that the closest antivneom was in Columbus, that is too far away to be effective if the bite was severe. (Delay of administration can lead to permanent organ damage even if the person survives the bite.) There is no need for a book to explain that antivenom is necessary, that is just common sense.
Another point we and others keep making is that when you use a zoo's antivenom up on a private bite, that means the keepers at the zoo don't have any in the event of a bite at the zoo.
Since Thanksgiving of 2003, there have been 11 exotic venomous bites that we know of on the East Coast. Three in the last three months in PA. I'm sure there are more I haven't heard about. When the private individual does not have their own antivneom, it is more likely the media will become involved. An example of this is the rhino bite in Dayton where the person died.
There no justification for not having your own antivenom if you want to keep venomous snakes.
If the hobby wants to set up an antivenom bank, then each bank location should be within an hour's drive from each keeper. That's not very realistic logistically, but in order to avoid any unnecessary delays in administration, that's what would be needed. Luckily, most envenomations are not serious, but if your bite is, you could be out of luck. A numbers game responsible keepers should not be willing to play. Our community should realize that each person's actions can have an impact on everyone else.
Jim Harrison

To clarify the Florida issue. We have VENOM ONE which is actually a division of the Dade County Fire Department. They use their supplies not just to treat Americans who get bit, but also people in surrounding countries.

It is their policy to promote a central AV bank as opposed to individual ownership...the arguement being that It has a limited shelf life and in a private situation is not readily available if someone else needs it and thus is wasted.

Also...most people would not know how to safely administer it, if they had it (or are even aware if it is safe for them to take it)and thus still should be taken to a care facility (in which case VENOM ONE would be called anyway) instead of having the false confidence that they have all they need at home.

A prime example of the danger of AV was a man (who's son I know) that was bitten by (allegedly) a pygmy rattler ( a non-lethal species)and who died from an allergic reaction to AV. The point being...Even with a complete medical facility there is a danger. it is not as simple a matter as grabbing the right brand and injecting it.

People here pay for the Anti-V that is used on them. Except for the deadbeats that would skip out on the cost of any medical treatment.

Personally I go the route of not having any species that I cannot safely (thru proper procedures) move if I have to. I also argue against the private keeping of Cobras, Mambas and the like at home.

My 2 cents.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I too know Brad and live very near him. I have purchased from him and vice versa...he's top notch, unlike 95% of the folks that post in this forum and are bashing him now, who obviously dont have a real clue to the exact nature of the events. Its the main reason many of the serious hot keepers dont even bother with this forum. Its useless to try and talk to guys that have been into hots for 6 months but have suddenly become smarter/more experienced than 20 year vets. Too many "wanta be/sound important" people are rippen on the wrong guy this time.

Shawn

Agreed on that. I've worked with "hots" for 26 years and am a former reptile curator. While I disagree with certain additudes expressed here, I hate the personal bashing that goes on just to prove a point.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Very well said, and off the subject, I wish you were around when people tell me their Naja kaouthia are Naja atra, so I could have some backup from someone they will believe.

Take care,
Chad

The victim should have had a personal supply of antivenom.
If you cannot withstand a full venom load of your said snake your gonna pay the price.
You don't have to keep the most deadly snakes.
I even have slimmed down over the years to snakes that don't
scar you for life if you live like naja for example.
If you want one of the extreme exotic species like a tree cobra.
I would try to immunise with it if it did not work I would get rid of it before its too late to.

Terry will agree that the private ownership of hots is
nearly doomed it might not last 4 to five more years.
too many dealers selling to anyone for the buck
venomoiders out of control.
Too many bites where the victim had av or no plan of survival.
Snakes being let loose or escaping.
snakes kept unsafely in condos or trailers.
It seems that nobody polices the hobby and its out of control.
Be immunised succesfully or have AV or get rid of the snakes!
my 2 cents dont be the next news item.

Tim send me your new email its not working
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Bud

No one seems to ever have a plan of action. Let alone a good one!
I would agree that the private community of venomous keepers is doomed in less than 5 years!
Think about it.....when stuff like this and the Suphans loose in Texas and all the illegal keepers who get stuff confiscated (rightly or wrongly) who do you think the feds etc. go to to ask advice? the closest zoo! I have been approached 3 times in the last 12 months by state officials to give advice for new regulations etc.
3 times! Each time, in that conversation the official says, "well, we don't want to happen here what happened last month in that state" It sucks.
Your hole is getting deeper and deeper every time something like this happens. And to be honest, there is less than a handful of people on this site that actually listened. the Rest attacked and flamed not realizing that all of the fish and game people are rightfully reading all of these posts.
Go back and re read any thread with the point of view from an officials side of the fence! You might choose to think differently.

Like Bud said, you don't always have to keep the deadliest thing money can buy!

Ok I'm off my soapbox now.
Enjoy!
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

I'm sure the man in question who got bit is an experienced and competant handler. Yes, anyone is liable to be bitten in this hobby, no matter how good we are. But if you are putting the burden on zoos or other private keepers (WITHOUT HAVING AN AGREEMENT TO USE THEIR AV OF COURSE, IF YOU HAVE A VERBAL AGREEMENT SAYING THAT THEY CAN USE YOUR AV FOR ONE SPECIES AND YOU CAN USE THEIRS, OR WHATEVER, FINE!) isn't right. No one is forcing anyone to keep exotic hots. There are plenty of nice native crotalids to play with if you can't aquire AV. Blaming the difficulty in aquiring foreign AV (which I agree is unneccesarily hard) is ridiculous: NO ONE IS FORCING US TO KEEP THESE SNAKES! Do you drive without a license? Or insurance? Do you expect someone else to pay your medical bills when you get in a car accident? No? Well then why expect someone else to cover your ass when you get bitten? Like I said, if you have an agreement, fine, but if you are just assuming that someone will give you THEIR AV that they worked hard and spent money to get so THEY are covered if they get bitten, then you're an ass...sorry. Me personally, I'm applying for my permit to import foreign AV. You can mark my words I won't be keeping any exotic venomous (that have AV, of course i'm not talking about mangroves, etc.) until I aquire at least 5 vials for the species I'd be keeping.

Another thing, i've heard the argument, "Well it's my life dude, if i get bit and I don't have AV then its my deal"...Well guess what, if you get bitten and die it affects ALL of us. I'm not saying we're gonna be sitting here crying and sobbing, I'm saying that every little news article (no matter how biased) about a keeper being bitten drives a coffin nail into this hobby. So if you want to contribute to the death of hotkeeping by becoming the next headline, then you are being incredibly selfish. Therefore, keeping AV is not just a responsiblity to yourself, but to your fellow keepers, assuming you have any respect for them. I think I've said enough. There are those who feel that AV is not critical, and those who feel it is. Just as there are those who feel that venomoids are okay, and those that feel they aren't. Great discussion though, great to see the forum getting some use again.

I would like to say that although some of my comments might have appeared to be harsh, they are voiced with respect. I'm not slamming anyone personally, but mistakes in this hobby affect everyone, so it's bound to be heated discussion. Peace,

AP

(1)Actually most naja will scar you for life (necrosis does leave scars, and MOST naja bites will cause necrosis).

(2)Where is everybody getting the false info that there is not A/V that will cover a Pseudohaje bite??

(3)Some people would have severe reactions while trying to self immunise, and be forced to use another keepers A/V stock.

I guess this is one of the reasons I sold all my hots (venomous keepers can never just get along, and everytime I post here it turns into a battle with people that know it all).

Have fun,
Chad

Not saying you're wrong about Pseudohaje not having an effective AV, but I've heard this from many people. Ray Hunter mentioned this in the classified for the P.goldii that ExoticsRUs has for sale, I've read it before in publications, etc. At the least, there is not a specific AV for P.goldii. What AV do you think could be used to treat this sp? You are the first person I've heard claim there is an effective AV for Pseudohaje goldii (or nigrita for that matter).

AP

South Africa polyvalent has shown some effect in laboratory tests. But is listed in the antivenom index as a question mark for treating an envenomation by Pseudohaje.
Antivenom is the most important tool of any keeper. It can be hard to obtain but can be done. I have maintained an IND number and imported antivenom for over 25 years. In that time I have lost thousands of dollars of antivenom to private individuals bitten by their "pets". I have now started using legal action to collect cost of serum and risk to my keepers. It has become more expensive to not have your own and risk the lives of others.
Experts are everywhere but common sense is not.
Just housing an animal does not make you an expert even if you do it well. I have met many great herp people over the years but few of the greats would call themselves experts. They know that no one knows it all and that life is about learning.
Keeping venomous is a dangerous hobby that outsiders will never understand. It does not help when people who should know better do not follow common sense behavior and maintain antivenom. All the bites and escapes are adding up. Brad is not the only one that has been bitten lately in PA. So my statements are not just about his bite but all exotic bites.

Jim Harrison

Jim, you've heard me say this before...
There are a lot of "experts" in percieved experience and baseless knowledge.
Just another prime example of this.

no serum no venomous snake!

That should be common sense! Unbelievable that people can disagree..... It's like saying snakes don't have eyelids...it's just obvious!
Oh well.
Once again, we tried!
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry

You still wheel & deal in venomous with private people, but do you know if they keep A/V.

Watch what you say. There are people that know more than you think, and you recently got a few of my animals, but never again.

Chad

Most serious keepers do not consider their hots "pets". Yes, we should keep A/V. Why dont all you guys help to make it easier for us to purchase?? So you have always had A/V for the species you kept?? You claim you are not against the hobby, but all you do for it is put the people who are in the same position you once were in...... "down" (with everybody against you).

Have people pay you for A/V, and then distribute it to the nearest hospital to them, or is that too much work? I don't know you personally, but help US do something about this!!!

I know for a fact that when I get in a car, I have a very good chance of being killed, but does that mean I don't have any common sense because I do it anyway??? Common sense would be to not try and milk a Naja nivea after it crawled through it's waterbowl!!!

Get off your high horse,

Chad

Facts are facts. Yes I have been bitten . But I have never asked for antiserum from anyone else and risked their lives. I also have saved many keepers lives with antiserum I import and help produce. My life is open to all I hide nothing including mistakes. When you have extracted from 50 Naja nivea for over a year and do not make a mistake then you are a better man then me. Also I learned from that mistake (1997) and now remove water the day before extractions. Has those that have been bitten and do not keep antivenom learned from theirs?
If that is being on a high horse I will have to agree. But turning a blind eye to facts is why keeping venomous will soon be illegal nationwide. Will this effect us ?
Discussing accidents and safety leads to better understanding of these mistakes. I rarely post but with all the bites and escapes I see this hobby going extinct.
I would rather it not but that is up to private keepers. As far as buying from or selling to private keepers. We stopped selling to private people 7 years ago when things started to get out of hand. We rarely buy from private breeders because all animals that have been purchased in the last two years tested postive for viruses. We get most of our animals from other zoos that test for viruses or breed them here.

Jim Harrison

>>>>>I know for a fact that when I get in a car, I have a very good chance of being killed, but does that mean I don't have any common sense because I do it anyway??? Common sense would be to not try and milk a Naja nivea after it crawled through it's waterbowl!!! >>>>>>>>>

I wouldn't say that everytime you get in a car, you have a VERY good chance of being killed. If that were the case, you'd probably be dead right now (unless you very rarely get in a car). Yes, common sense does dictate not to try and milk a slippery-when-wet cape cobra, but although he did make a mistake, he didn't burden anyone else with it. If Brad had AV, this post wouldn't exist. THE WHOLE DEBATE HERE EXISTS BECAUSE HE DIDN"T HAVE AV! No one said that mistakes cant happen, they happen to the best! That is the exact reason to keep AV, because no matter how good you are, how much you know your animals, you are prone to human error, and the price can be a big one.

As for aquiring AV, that's your responsibilty. Sure it's tough. Sure it's a royal pain in the butt (as I'm finding out myself). But no one is holding a gun to your head and telling you to keep exotic venomous. Telling others to do it for you is ridiculous: you are the one keeping the snake! If you cant afford the AV, or don't want to take the time to get permits to aquire it, don't keep exotics! Pretty simple. And if you do, well, at best you'll be sucking up someone else's serum (and seriously pissing them off), at worst you'll be residing in a pine box.

AP

on where your driving!!! (lol)

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Well Jim beat me to it. This game is getting old. Can we play another? It seems all venomous keepers ever do is work against eachother, Ball python keepers/breeders are much more willing to help eachother out, and they are the ones that need it least.

Chad

TRIBUNE-REVIEW (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania) 26 April 04 Fanciers defend snakes' allure (Reid R. Frazier)
Don Ziolkowski never has been that enthusiastic about venomous snakes, but he can understand the allure they hold for people like Brad McCarthy, a Butler County snake breeder who had a brush with a deadly Monocle cobra on Friday.
"Owning a venomous snake, it just kind of ups the ante on that thrill factor," said Ziolkowski, owner of the General Store for Pets in Crafton and the owner of five snakes.
Ziolkowski, 31, said he never met McCarthy but knows the Penn Township man has a good reputation as a professional snake breeder.
"He's one of the best in the business. I've had a lot of customers that have dealt with him. He's been around for a while," said Ziolkowski, whose store sells exotic reptiles, birds and fish. "He wasn't a beginner."
McCarthy, 44, was taken to UPMC Presbyterian hospital in Oakland on Friday after his brush with a Monocle Cobra. Emergency workers ordered anti-venom from the Columbus Zoo because none could be found locally.
McCarthy was released from UPMC on Saturday with a clean bill of health. Reached at home, he declined to comment publicly on the incident.
Ziolkowski, who has owned snakes since he was 6, said those who handle snakes get bitten sooner or later.
"It's just something that happens. It's like a machine operator falling off their equipment," he said. "I've been bitten by all my snakes. I can tell you that hand-feeding your snake, (it's) not a good idea."
Those who handle, breed and sell snakes say that as long as they are handled properly, snakes are harmless. For enthusiasts, they are fascinating and beautiful animals that have attained mythical status in cultures around the world.
Irwin moved to ban dangerous exotic pets in 2001, after a Burmese python owned by a man there escaped from its cage and strangled his daughter, Amber Mountain, 8. McCandless also prohibits them, as does Brownsville, Fayette County, and Philadelphia, but there is no statewide law against owning dangerous animals.
State law requires owners of deadly exotic animals such as lions, tigers and bears to seek permits for their pets, but there is no requirement for reptiles.
Breeders of "hot," or venomous, snakes belong to a select group of breeders who tend to keep a low profile, Ziolkowski said.
"Most in the venomous community don't want a lot of publicity," said Ziolkowski. "It's like you want to make sure you're not handing an idiot a loaded gun. If you've never had snakes, they won't even talk to you."
Some breeders "milk" snake venom for medicinal purposes, said Billie Zulich, who runs Harford Reptile Breeding in Bel Air, Md., with her husband, Al.
Billie Zulich said that like many snake lovers, she was hooked from a very young age.
"I had garter snakes. I was always taking them home. I was one of those kids whose mothers make you empty your pockets when you come in the house," she said.
The Zulichs only breed non-venomous snakes, she said, because the poisonous kind are too dangerous for their taste.
"My husband used to work with venomous snakes for the government in the '70s. He said there's no way he'd go back to it. He considers himself lucky he didn't get bit," she said.
Ziolkowski, whose five snakes include three ball pythons and a Brazilian smooth snake, graduated from his first snake, a garter, at age 6. By high school, he owned a pair of green anacondas, serpents so big they can eat small deer.
Ziolkowski said he likes to show snakes in schools, where he said students are fascinated by the serpents.
"The gleam in the kids' eyes, it's worth a lot more than money," he said.
Fanciers defend snakes' allure