Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Dear all:

I asked a few days ago about the best beginner hots. I was thinking about either the pigmy rattler or the copperhead. Well, I went to the hamburg show yesterday and the prices were unbelievable. It was a great show. I got both!

My copperhead is a broadbanded copperhead. I got him because they don't get as big as the other subspecies (what i was told by the vendor). He is an absolute mouse pounding machine. He ate two hoppers yesterday. First one was bitten but I think the first bite was a dry bite or non-puncturing bite. After a few minutes, I picked up the hopper and let the snake bite again. This time death in 10 seconds. The second hopper was bitten multiple times but did not die as fast (I think because all the venom was just used for the first one). The second hopper died in about 40-60 seconds.

The pigmy was a bit harder to get started. He would not eat for me. But I left two brained pinkies overnight and this morning only one was left. I am very happy!

I bought some great tools! and I have not been bitten Once! I plan to keep that record. I am very careful always use tools.

I have a question about the copperhead. He has a hide box, but he never uses it. He just sits in the open. He also always moves to the cold end of the tank. Do copperheads like the open? Why doesn't he hide? Not that I am complaining. I have never had a snake that is such a great display snake--he is always in the open.

for pictures:
http://www.dotphoto.com/Go.asp?l=longtang&P=&AID=830686&GID=521506&T=1

Do you plan on switching to frozen, or are you going to keep feeding live?

KRis
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DON'T TREAD ON ME

controversial subject on feeding live. I happen to find that the envenomation to be the most intriguing part of owning a hot. I don't know, but I find it intriguing. Am i weird?

It gets old after a while. I still think it's almost as cool watching them eat frozen, I wish my horned adder would eat p/k more often.

Sure, if you're willing to risk your snake losing an eye or getting a seriously nasty infected wound from a prey animal bite. Also live feeding carries additional risk of parasite and disease transmission to the snake.

I wouldn't say that it is never okay to feed live. Some snakes just won't take prekilled food initially. The risks are manageable if you supervise and/or use prey items that cannot bite back. But I would certainly recommend more frequent fecal exams for snakes on a live animal diet. Also you should be prepared to deal with the consequences of a rodent bite which can be quite nasty. Do you have a vet that will see your venomous snakes? If not, I'd be *very* hesitant to take any additional risks with its health.

Some snakes are more competent than others at killing prey, and some are downright dumb and very likely to be seriously bitten if you do not intervene with forceps to the rodent's head immediately.

Watching snakes eat live food may have some entertainment value, but is it really worth the additional risks to the snake? I say no, and prefer to get my animals onto frozen/thawed as soon as possible. The few snakes I do have still on live food are a serious pain in the rear because all their prey items have to get fecals and antiparasitical medications to avoid introducing things to my collection that I do not want there. This isn't entertainment, it's an annoying extra workload.

I agree completely with MsTT's statement.
However, some snakes take awhile to switch over to frozen/thawed.
When I have to feed a live rodent to a stubborn feeder, I always put a few chunks of dog food in the enclosure, in case the snake is not interested immediately in the rodent, and also the rodent will have something to chow instead of your snake.

The dog food idea works great for snakes that refuse frozen prey. Kinda draws the attention away from the reptile. I have had a few snakes i could not get to eat frozen mice. I left the dogfood in the cage, and i keep coming back to check on the snake. If for some reason i have to leave the house the mouse comes out of the cage!

Kris
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DON'T TREAD ON ME

My favorite food items to leave in with a very shy feeder include hairless rat pups too small to bite, little baby birds (finches, chicks, etc), and newborn rabbits or guinea pig pinkies when I can get them from breeders.

You still need to monitor what is going on in the cage, but those sorts of very small and helpless food items can be left in for much longer periods of time without concern that they will hurt the snake. The larger snakes (especially Eastern diamondbacks) respond very well to newborn rabbits.

Fresh prekilled may also work well when tempting a shy feeder, and it's a good first step in getting them to take frozen/thawed. Temperature and "fresh" smell can be a factor, so prekilled may be accepted even when warmed-up f/t isn't. Prekilled prey can't bite the snake but can transmit diseases and parasites so you really want to get them onto f/t.

Rodent urine seems to be a feeding trigger, so taking a warmed f/t mouse and rubbing it with fresh used mouse bedding can also help with the transition.

I am unable to find any references that specifically document parasites that are capable of making the jump from Mammalia to Reptilia. I have found two that document accidental parasites passing from Lacertilia to Squamata. Do any exist? Are there cases of mammals serving as intermediate hosts for such parasitic infections? Carriers? I am looking for sources out of scientific journals (i.e.-peer reviewed, preferably). Although, any articles would be appreciated. Thanks.

While I don't have any of the scientific literature immediately to hand, good references to rodent-reptile internal parasite transmission can be found in a number of veterinary textbooks including Doug Mader's Reptile Medicine and Surgery, Klingenberg's Understanding Reptile Parasites, Frye's atlas of reptile diseases and the two volume Barnard set from Krieger (Veterinary guide to parasites of reptiles).

One of the biggest concerns in rodent to reptile disease transmission are the protozoans. The genus Eimeria contains coccidians and cryptosporidians, both of which can wreak serious havoc on a reptile collection. Some of these species are host specific and others are not; there is even some concern with zoonotic potential with some of the hardier Eimeria that can cause problems in humans as well as in snakes. Entamoeba can also do damage in both mammalian and reptilian hosts.

Many internal parasites require (or can utilize) more than one type of intermediate host. Others have a direct life cycle and don't need an intermediate host to produce offspring. If a parasite does not end up inside a definitive host where it can reproduce, it might just die, or it might do some bizzare things like migrate into body tissues or organs where it can cause problems.

I don't have all the details offhand about which species can utilize which intermediate or definitive hosts to reproduce. There are just too many species. I do know that it is part of a typical parasite life cycle to reach its final host by being ingested while inside another intermediate host, which means that a lot of these nasty buggers are awfully good at surviving the digestive process.

The short answer is that yes, rodent to reptile internal parasite transmission is a real concern that deserves some serious thinking about if you are a reptile keeper.

Hi TT, just fyi, guinea pigs are not born as pinkies. They are born up and running and fully furred, eyes open, and with teeth...............Robin

Thanks for the enlightenment. I buy batches of assorted newborns from pet stores for picky rehab Eastern diamondbacks who don't like mice or rats. I was told at one point that guinea pigs were in the mix. I guess he was mistaken or angling for more of my money, because they were definitely not fully furred. They did look different from the rabbit pinkies and had some mottled dark pigmentation on their skin, but I can't even tell adult rabbit breeds apart so I really don't know.

Not that the snake cared; they went down like potato chips. Big pinkies do a pretty good job of tempting a shy, stressed snake when adult prey is rejected.

I saw in the pics that you paid $20 for the Pygmy, do you happen to remember how much ($$$) crotalus sp. were running, specifically prarie, black-tail, or massasauga rattlers?

I am going to Bristol for a couple crotalus to begin rebuilding a non-native (to NC) collection.

Thanks,

Phil

BTW Live Feeding ... you are indeed running a risk by not freezing for at least 30 days to rid the mouse of all parasites. That said however, I always fed live from a VERY reputable source, always watched the snake to ensure the mouse didn't bite it, and also did the dogfood trick. It's a risk though. But I felt my Canebrakes got lazy with pre-killed mice so I accepted the risks.

Thanks to everyone who posted replies. I was certainly a bit gun-shy on this topic because I have seen many heated debates on this topic. I don't have a good flame-suit, and I was glad that no one threw flame on me.

This group in the venomous forum certainly seem less prone to flame. Instead, I heard many level-headed mature discussions on this subject. I really appreciate all the input. I like the idea suggested of feeding large pinkies/fuzzies. I do have access to rat babies, so I will consider that. Also, I know that these are from a clean source (my neighbor breeds them).

I may, in the future, breed my own rats. I believe that Copperheads (esp. Broadbanded CH) should be able to sustain its entire live on pinky to fuzzy/pup rats (correct me if I am wrong). One question I do have is about calcium: ie I read that snakes fed exclusively on young animals (fuzzies/pinkies) can run into calcium deficiency. How does one deal with that?

in answer to the question of massagua. I did see a number of massagaua rattlers in the $30 range. Good luck on it. I hope you find what you are looking for in the show. I don't remember other ones you asked about.

Hi: just saw the bristol Ad. Too bad it is 400 miles from where I am. (Hamburg was 180 miles--about the furthest I am willing to drive). Boy, sure would like to go to another Hot Show soon. The next Hamburg one is not until OCT!.

By the way, Bristol show date is on my Birthday! Would have been a cool birthday treat, but just tooooo far!

Have fun there! keep us updated on your trip and your experience there!

cheers. Happy Hotings!

Hi. I've kept many copperheads. They're one of my favorite snakes. And I've noticed that all of them do like to sit in the open. They occasionally use their hide boxes but most of the time are comfortable being out.