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I saw an ad for a "new" Panther local listed as a Mafana. When I looked at the pics the animal looked identical a Soabana. I couldn't find the Soabana posted in the photo gallery by Mads for reference but remember it well. Sounds like a similar BS situation like Ambilobes vs. Picassos.

-Matt

Yeah it did look like the soabana panther. Looked neat though.
Nice Ambilobe!!!!!!!!!
Stevie

Sure looks like the colors were boosted in this photo. Since I'm a graphics professional, I tend to notice these things. The blue leaves on the Shefflera (last time I checked they didn't have blue leaves) and the blues around the rim of what looks like a pool or something in the background give it away. Plus, that orange looks really unatural and oversaturated.

It seems like a lot of Panther photos tend to have a suspicious "glow", and the colors seem to be really blown out. I guess the Photoshop temptation is just too strong to resist. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

I'd be willing to bet a lot of breeders give their Chams' colors a little help when trying to make a sell.

The funniest one is the recent post of the Quadricornis. The poster says he "boosted the greens a little". Um, boosted the greens a little? It looks like you TINTED the whole image green and bumped the saturation up to about 600%. Either that or your lizard is got into a vat of plutonium while you weren't looking.

If people are going to photoshop their Chameleons, they should be subtle about it. A little goes a long way. It's not hard to pull some little tricks to boost the color while not making it look like it just crawled off of a spaceship.

I'm not accusing you of faking the colors here, but it does look a little weird. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it's your camera. Do tell..

n/p

Hi jacksonsrule:

I will have to disagree with you. I have to say that Cyclops' colors are actually that bright and that intense. I highly doubt that Matt played with the picture as the chameleon doesn't require it. I agree with you that many pictures in the net will be enhanced and sometimes not on purpose but this is not the case with Cyclops' picture.

Take care,
Ivan

They dont look that spectacular to me...ohh boy green with red eyes. Like the new blue morph nothing special to me, just "new" people love the word "new"...I will not be running out to purchase these unless they really do start looking like that soabana one.

side note, I've purchased chams from this guy before and all I can say is ehhhh.
-----
From Sunny Florida
Jovana's kids listed below
1.0 Veileds
1.1 Ambanja Panther
1.1 Tamatave Panther

Hi everyone:

I was wondering when this locale of panther was going to show up. Mads posted a few pics of his a while back in the gallery and it created some good reviews regarding the locale.
Well it was a matter of time before someone tried to get them and give them a new name to sell them as "new" like Jovana said.
These chameleons are not really from Mafana or Soabana, those are made up names like picasso and sirama. We all know by now that picasso and sirama is the same thing as Ambilobe, and that is the true name of the locale.
The actual locale from where these new panthers come from is Nosy Mitsio. This is an archipelago located north-west of Nosy Be and has this unique panther population. In reality, they are not all that spectacular when you look at it without the novelty glasses. Their main appeal is that they are new but in reality they are a solid green animal (lime green) that will turn solid yellow when excited. That's it, plain and simple.
That is no special characteristic as Sambavas and Ambilobes do it but they have the added benefits of having a lot more colors in the mix.

If anyone really has all that money to burn, by all means grab one or two as they are indeed a new locality but I personally do not think they are a locale that will give you a return for your money when you breed them. Basically, think it twice before you buy them as an investment because there will be a very limited pool of people willing to pay a high price for a green panther.

Well, what can I say? If you are a "professional" please prove that I did anything to make this picture more than it is. Please don't sugar coat the fact that you are comparing my pic to an image that is known to be "touched" an essentailly saying my pic is in the same boat. If you are going to say it, hey, that is fine, but don't try to add on the last line "I might be wrong" after making wild accusations. I'll respect your opinion much more if you are just up front about what you are saying or ask a question about it. With that said I do have a couple things I want to point out.

I can honestly say that I didn't notice that blue in the corner until you mentioned it. This led me to look at other pics I took from that day and I noticed it in other spots as well. I think what it is probably the fact that this is a huge plant and it is very deep. What this will do is shade a lot of the inner leaves and create shadows. I've attatched a pic so that you can see the size I am talking about and how Cyclops stands out like a sore thumb.

Now, because these shadows are on green leaves whatever little light will hit them has the potential to make it look blue to the camera. If you use the example from a color wheel - yellow and blue make green which also means yellow(sunlight) and green(the leaves) will make blue. I am sure Jackson you being a professional can understand what I am saying here. Could it be the camera doing this? I really don't know, I'll have to rely on you for that estimation. Whch finally brings me to my last point: Cyclops is really awesome enough to put out this vibrant display.

Bottom line, you should deal with Panthers more. They really get that bright, especially Ambilobes. I will admit that Cyclops is something else though which could easily lead someone as yourself astray. His color doesn't dull even when stressed. As I got him from Ivan I am sure he will back this up as well as the others that have seen him in person. Feel free to check out other pics of him at www.mythicalchameleons.com. Look under "meet the breeders" link. Also, send your email address and I'll be more than happy to send more pics for you to see. I also have many more animals than I've posted that I'll be more than happy to show you pics of as well for reference. I don't care what other breeders are doing, what you see in my pics are the real deal - feel free to look at the other pictures I have posted as they are all very good looking animals.

Please don't make off the handle accusations when you admit you aren't certain. Especially when it brings someone's credability into question. As an example it is like me coming back and asking, "How are you a professional when you can't even apply the teachings of the color wheel to images you see?". I have no idea of your work so I wouldn't make these assumprions. Be certain when you post or ask if it was "touched" before you assume.

-Matt

With the onboard, automatic color correction features of modern digital cameras, it is indeed possible to unkowingly achieve misleading results in your photos. I SAID it might be your camera, and apparently I was right. So shun my knowledge of digital cameras, not my knowledge of the principles of color. And saying I might be wrong in the end is not backing down from "wild accusations"; but rather me being honest.

I think you may have gotten a little too defensive. I didn't mean to question your credibility. I simply thought the color of your Panther (which is amazing - don't get me wrong) was blown out. And it was, thanks to your camera. Now I kow this was not something you intended.The Panther can't possibly look that way in reality (maybe close, but not that saturated), so what was I supposed to think?

I know breeders/keepers of Panthers are all about color, and I'm sure reputable breeders don't doctor photos. I'm a true layman when it comes to Panthers, I admit it. I think you have a beautiful animal. I apologize for assuming. It's just that some of these photos floating around look rediculous, whether it's due to Photoshop, or camera settings, or whatever. Panthers may exhibit truly bold colors, but I'm pretty sure they don't glow. Damn RGB monitors!

And, for the record, in regards to your reference to the "teachings of the color wheel", I must point out that you cannot get blue by mixing yellow and green. You get varying shades of green or yellow by mixing yellow and green.
But, I think I know what you meant. Now that I know you didn't alter these photos, my theory as to what happened in your photos was that the camera picked out a little natural blue in the shadows (a slight reflection of light from the sky, no doubt) and multiplied it a little too much.

All this nonsense aside, you have a great looking Chameleon.

Jacksonsrule, if i may add a few comments to this discussion, you said that

"Panthers may exhibit truly bold colors, but I'm pretty sure they don't glow"

I would have to beg to differ. As a matter of fact, Many Panthers do appear to project a "glow" in real life, only because their color is so intense when excited. People who have dealt with many panthers before would not question the legitimacy of Matt's photo.I too have a panther that appears to be "glowing" in pictures, but never have i done any touch up on his photos. He appears in real life as he does in the photos.

Justs out of curiosity, have u ever seen a panther in person?You have to see the colors a panther is able to exhibit to be beleive it. Panther are indeed marvelous.

So am I the only one that thinks a solid yellow animal with red eyes looks cool? I personally think there is something appealing about solid colored animals. Solid Blue, Pink, Yellow etc, etc. When I first saw Mads photo of his Soabana in the gallery, I was amazed. Did anybody else like it? Anybody.....?

Here is a pic of Mad's Soabana if anybody missed it.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.pl?photo=104227

Heck, i think the're awesome. I would kill to get one of those...okay... not that that extreme. But i would be interested in aquiring one of those.

but they are not even yellow, they are green.
-----
From Sunny Florida
Jovana's kids listed below
1.0 Veileds
1.1 Ambanja Panther
1.1 Tamatave Panther

I am with you gyus, soabanas are totally awesome!!! there is nothing ordinary about soabanas, they totally rule in my opinion!

I can agree with the part that when they are young they are green and turn yellow upon maturity... that is pretty cool. But, as Ivan obviously pointed out, after you get over that fact along with the point that they are a "new" local and that there isn't anything too special about them when compared to say a Sambava, Ambilobe or a Ambanja they aren't too "spectacular" when you look at their price. Honestly $650 per import middle manned is... well... crazy to say the least, let alone what the importer is charging to begin with.

I seriously doubt that 99% of the people thinking of picking up one, two or whatever of these guys can keep them alive longer than a month and that is atributed to the simple fact that WC's will die for no reason. I can certainly attest to that fact very, very easily. But hey, if someone wants to spend $650 an import go right ahead. Experience failure on a level you never have known before because at that price good luck for your chances of bouncing back after it, especially for an animal that shows the same colors as a $20 Veiled.

-Matt

Still love them. Great neon color.

Buy a 3.6 then. That's $5850 of "coolness".
I personally think they are nice looking but not $650 nice. As a matter of fact, I do not think any panther is worth that much when the importers probably pay $100 tops for them.

Karleton

I will. However, I will not need to buy $5,000 as you suggest to be satisfied. Thanks for your suggestion, it was a very smart comment and very well taken.

FORTUNATELY WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT TASTES AND OPINIONS OF BEAUTY, OTHERWISE WOULDN'T LIFE BE DULL? WHY IS GREEN LESS BEUATIFUL THAN RED OR ORANGE? THE COOL COLORS CAN BE JUST AS BEAUTIFUL (OR DULL!) AS THE WARM COLORS CAN BE. ISN'T A PERFECTLY VIBRANT BLUE NOSEY BE A GOOD EXAMPLE? THE GREENS ON THE MAFANA/SOABANNA/MITSEU HAVE THE SAME GLOWING INTENSITY AS THE OTHER PANTHER COLORS. PANTHER GREEN IS DEFINITELY A MORE VIBRANT GREEN THAN VEILED GREEN. LOOK AT THE GREENS ON THE AMBILOBES - THEY ARE PRACTICALLY NEON. I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR PEOPLES OPINIONS - IS THIS TRULY A BORING UNWORTHY ANIMAL? AND EVERY ONE OF US THAT HAVE TRIED TO CAPTURE THE INTENSITY OF COLORS OUR PANTHERS DISPLAY KNOW THAT NO PICTURE CAN DO JUSTICE TO THEIR BEAUTY. IT SOUNDS LIKE A COME ON BUT THAT IS THE SIMPLE TRUTH.
THE PICTURE I'M POSTING IS COURTESY OF ALINE REPTILES

I can't say that these animals are "boring" but are way too expensive for what colors they show. I mean, all high end Panthers are a bit pricey but these guys are taking the cake and the aren't even captive bred animals. At least with say an Ambilobe you can justify it a bit more because they will show lots of red, yellow, orange, blue, green and white colors - you get a little bit of everything. Whereas the Soabana is green when they are young and become yellow when mature. Not too much bang for your buck with them if you ask me. I still don't think that the Soabana's color is that much more intense than a premium Veiled which is why I doubt that this will be a coveted local once the hype wears off as Ivan said. But, hey if you've got to have one and paying $550 and above doesn't make you grab your chest and gasp for air, by all means don't let me stop you.

Sure, I would love to have one for display purposes but would only consider it for a fraction of the cost. Now, I do agree that rarity demands a higher price but even what they were going for when initially imported was WAY too high. Bottom line though is that there is no new ground broken and nothing to fresh with these animals other than their name(s).

-Matt

What I am wondering now is if Mads paid $650 for each one when he was one of the first people to get them. My guess is that he didn't but I'll ask him.

It has been well known that one of the hardest and most difficult colors for any reptile to achieve is blue. Therefore, any reptile that has blue tends to be more coveted because it is a true rarity. Why else would true blue Nosy Be's will always be in such demand? Ambanja blue are a staple in the hobby and seems like Ambilobes will soon become another staple just because of their colors.
The Mitsios are nice and all but there is really no novelty on a green lizard that turns yellow. Almost all panthers have green as part of their array of colors which doesn't make for the Mitsios to be a spectacular animal at all. The change to yellow is a plus but nothing new either as it "has been done" by other locales.
The chameleon itself looks wonderful but the price is downright ridiculous. I do hope that these guys prove to be hardy in captivity and that the CB generations get established. At $650 the market will be very limited for a green panther but once the hype dies down and the price drops then they should be a good seller.

While $650 is a steep price to pay, as an introductory price it is not bad at all. When the Ambilobes were new they went for $800. The Turquoise Blues went for $700. I don't recall breeders getting upset over those prices at that time. How much the animal originally cost the importer/exporter really isn't an issue. Of course the markup is large. Everybody has to make a living and the animal has changed hands several times from Madagascar to its final home. This is true of all things -food, cars, clothing, whatever. Somebody desiring a Mafana always has the option of waiting a coule of years for the pricing to drop - and people that are inexperienced should do exactly that. Wild caughts are challenging, and some won't acclimate. Perhaps I have been lucky as I have not experienced high death rates with mine. If you really want to be shocked over the price of a new lcoale/morph consider leopard geckos. I realize many panther breeders look down on geckos, BUT, when a new morph comes around you are looking at pricing from $1000 -$3000 per animal. And they aren't even wild caught so there is no mark up due to other people being involved. I consider $650 for a new locale cheap. But then I also breed "lowly" geckos and have a different perspective on what is expensive for a introductory animal. Again - green/yellow/red is not a plain animal. There are a lot of people that actually desire this color combo. Just because your tastes run in a different direction does not make the animal less beautiful and desirable in another persons eys. Consider Legend Chams Neon Man. He was a solid color morph of Ambilobe panther, and other breeders were absolutely HOT to get a hold of him. Again - that was a solid green animal.

Your perspective is well taken. However, your perspective is an opinion based on your experience and my opinion is completely different. I can say all I want here based on my opinion and if someone likes the "combo" then they can go and pay $650 a piece. Ambilobes came in as the hottest locale, and probably still the hottest, and they were selling wholesale for $200. It wasn't until after the craze and frenzy started that the prices went up. This Nosy Mitsios do not hold a candle in terms of color to any Ambilobe or an Ambanja for that matter and they are starting out at a price that should be reserved for premium and established locales/animals.

My perspective on pricing, people are trying to milk this locale for every penny they can. Does my perspective differ from yours? Absolutely. Does that make you wrong? Of course not.

Hey all,

I think that the price reflects the simple laws of supply and demand. It really does not matter if the product for sale is premium or not. Its whether or not the product will sell at its offering price.

To put things in perspective, consider this:
Would you believe that a 3 bedroom single level home built in 1954 sells for $525,000 in the DC metro area. The house is in average condition, sitting on a lot that is just a fraction of an acre. This house sold just 4 days after being listed. There aren't enough houses here to satisfy the amount of buyers.

We will know if they were overpriced when we start to see an overabundance of them because nobody wants to buy them.

In my humble opinion, I think these chameleons are awesome. Neon green to High yellow on a screaming lizard is amazing to me. There is something wicked about a solid colored panther. I've seen some solid blue nosy bes that can stand their ground against some of the nicest blue ambilobes. A solid Pink ankaramy is a sight to see. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate every locale and color variation out there. But there is something unmatched about a solid colored, patternless chameleon. And when I see an animal I like, I'd be willing to pay top dollar for it.

I don't have money to burn, and spending $650 on a chameleon does occassionally make me gasp for air. But I enjoy collecting and working with these animals. I plan on starting a Mafana/Soabana/Mitsui project someday, and I think there will will always be collectors out there willing to pay top dollar for them. I admit that I would be one of them.

Bottom line is....lets not get so caught up in how much these guys should or should not cost. Lets let the market establish the price. Lets not close the door on any locale before they've had a chance to show prove themselves. Who knows, we might be even be surprised.

I am very greatful that a new locale has been introduced to our hobby. Just sit back and watch our hobby of Panther Chameleons grow.

Vincent
Screameleons

Just a silly question. Are Mafana/Soabana/Mitsui all look the same? Anybody has the photos of all 3 locales?

Victor and Shelly have made an excellent point: beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I am not saying your points of view are wrong but you two might be the only ones willing to pay that price for these animals. That would obviously affect the price on these guys if nobody else will shell out that kind of cash. Consider if Parson's keep getting imported like they are right now. There are only a very, very small group of select people that would drop that kind of cash on them, so if they keep getting imported twice a year at say 20 animals per import it is inevitable that the price will go down. So, if there are only 2 people right now willing to pay that price for these Panthers there is no way they will maintain this price. My advice if you are die-hard on getting them is to wait 2-3 weeks and then contact the middle man and say you are interested at YOUR price and I guarantee it will be accepted. You know why? Because it is better to cash in on them before they croak and being imported at $125 a shot they are still making a killing even at $250-300 a piece let alone the scalp that is being made at $650.

Just for the record as well, I don't think just because this local doesn't put on the display of say a Sambava or whatever that they aren't worth trying to establish in the States, I really don't think I've run across ANY chameleon I would make that judgment on.

Also, comparing chameleons, basically a luxary item, to housing is a pretty far fetch. If you think housing in DC has a high mark up look in Southern California where the median 2 bedroom crappy Condo goes for $550K. It might be hard for people who are "addicted" to chameleons to live without them, I am one of them, but try living without a roof over your head - especially in the winter of the Northeast - thats impossible. There really isn't any connection, especially when there is maybe at best 5-6 people, AT THE VERY MOST, that will pay $650 for that particular local that is freshly imported. Also, unfortunatly if you paid $800 for a fresh Ambilobe import you might have been had, maybe for an amazing animal such as Anubis but that is probably the only animal I would consider that price for. Now, I agree that Neon Man is pretty nice, Lane did a good job with him, but he isn't an animal that should command $600 or even $650 for that matter and he is an established WC. I seriously doubt that John paid that much for him and that is because, like Shelly pointed out, he isn't a solid blue bar Ambilobe. Bottom line though is I would buy a Soabana, once their price comes down a little from Mars but at their current price it is laughable.

-Matt