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Two Pacman questions

CokeOfMan Apr 28, 2004 10:23 AM

1. Can Pacmanfrogs hear? I know I asked before, but I got no answer. Just to see if I could for example play music in the room without disturbing the frog.
2. How do you do when you change for your frogs? I usually keep him/her in the tank and take out the soil on one side and replace it, and then wait, or try to gently push the frog over to the other side and then replacing the soil there. Is this dangerous or really stressful for the frog? In that case, how should I do when I'm changing for him/her?

Thanks In Advance
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CokeOfMan

Replies (18)

EdK Apr 28, 2004 11:11 AM

Pacman frogs can hear quite well.

I remove the frog to a holding container and then clean/rinse the tank. I also do a quick check over of the frog at that time and if necessary weigh the frog to see if it is gaining or losing weight (or in preperation for treatment). I also clean and disinfect the holding containers between frogs if they are housed in seperate cages. You should also wash and rinse your hands very well between cages to minimize the potential spread of pathogens and/or parasites.

Ed

zuesfrog Apr 28, 2004 02:05 PM

what do you disinfect with?
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2 firebelly toads (Ernie and Oscar)
1 american green tree frog (Booger)
1 four line/golden tree frog (Nugget)
1 Pacman frog (Atari)

EdK Apr 28, 2004 05:00 PM

I do not normally disinfect each time I clean the cage. I do disinfect the cage if there has been a death in the enclosure, an animal has been ill or I am moving an animal into a cage that was used for a different amphibian (unless I am moving animals together for reproduction).

Unless there is some overwhelming reason to use an alternative disinfective (such as a mycobacterium infection) I use unscented bleach diluted to the specifications on the label soaking with a minimum exposure time of 15 minutes. You can also use ammonia as an alternative. Both of these have the advantage of not leaving a residue if they are well rinsed. Plastics and some of the other items can retain residues that are toxic to the amphibians. (For example, iodine based disinfectants have been shown to bind to plastics and be released later on, occasionally at lethal levels.)

If you are in a hurry the items can be soaked for 5-10 minutes in chlorine remover used for fish. This can be repeated until there is no odor of chlorine detectable at which time the item can be dried rechecked (sniff test) and if clear used.
This method of neutralizing chlorine works well if you disinfect gravel or stones as these items can be left to soak in the chlorine remover.

Hope this helps,
Ed

snakeguy88 Apr 29, 2004 08:46 AM

is a bit more expensive, but it is a lot less hassle. It is called chorlorhexidine (Novalsan is one alternative name, though there are many). You spray it (after dilution) onto the cage and allow it to dry. Doesn't harm the animals either. I always just worry about the residue from bleach or other agents that could possibly hang around for a while.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

If you steal in hunger, I will kick you when you try. These stand for me. Name your god and bleed the freak. I'd like to see. How you all would bleed for me.-Alice In Chains

EdK Apr 29, 2004 09:10 AM

Chlorohexadine containing disinfectants are not usually a disinfectant of choice for amphibians as
1) most disinfectants containing chlorohexadine are not effective in killing or removing Pseudomonous (a major causative factor in red-leg), mycobacteria spores (amphibian mycbacterial infections are lethal and to date incurable) and noneveloped viruses.
2) It is toxic and potentially carcinogenic and should not be allowed to come into contact with the animal particuarly one that can absorb many products through the skin

These are the problems I can remember off the top of my head.

Ed

snakeguy88 Apr 29, 2004 09:18 AM

That is the first I have heard of it. We have always used the product at the wildlife shelter and at the vet offices. Do you happen to have citations for it being harmful? I don't doubt you, I would just like to see and read up on it.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

If you steal in hunger, I will kick you when you try. These stand for me. Name your god and bleed the freak. I'd like to see. How you all would bleed for me.-Alice In Chains

EdK Apr 29, 2004 09:25 AM

You state that you let the chlorohexidine dry on the enclosure and then imply that you do not rinse the cage.
You are concerned about skin oils affecting the amphibians (in an earlier post) and the residues bleach leaves (none if you rinse and air dry the cage) but you imply you do not do anything about the residue for this type of disinfectant.

Why do you feel a suspected carcinogen is not harmful to the animals if left in contact with them?

Ed

snakeguy88 Apr 29, 2004 09:28 AM

As I mentioned, I had no indication that it was a carcinogen.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

If you steal in hunger, I will kick you when you try. These stand for me. Name your god and bleed the freak. I'd like to see. How you all would bleed for me.-Alice In Chains

snakeguy88 Apr 29, 2004 09:30 AM

do you honestly think that if I knew that it could cause cancer that I would willingly keep my herps in it? I find that quite insulting. As I said, I have seen no indication with years of using it (not just with herps) that it was in anyway harmful.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

If you steal in hunger, I will kick you when you try. These stand for me. Name your god and bleed the freak. I'd like to see. How you all would bleed for me.-Alice In Chains

EdK Apr 29, 2004 09:41 AM

I questioned it as it seemed very odd that you would be concerned with the effect of skin oils and residual bleach but would leave chlorohexidine it to dry on the cages. I will question anything that causes an appearence of a paradox in stance.

I'll look for the references but it may have to wait until I get back to work (which at the earliest is mid-May) as this is based on the protocols handed out at work, so I need to check with the vet that wrote the protocols.

I do know that it is documented to cause photosensitivity and skin irritation.

Ed

snakeguy88 Apr 29, 2004 09:44 AM

Well, then I will quit using it. I was assured by the wildlife rehabilitation shelter that it was quite safe, as well as several vets. Never mentioned anything about negative effects.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

If you steal in hunger, I will kick you when you try. These stand for me. Name your god and bleed the freak. I'd like to see. How you all would bleed for me.-Alice In Chains

EdK Apr 29, 2004 10:00 AM

You can still use it as like bleach is you rinse it it tends not to leave a residue.
I may be misremebering on the carcinogenic point (partially as I am loaded to the gills with painkillers and have had about 2 hours of sleep so if I have been a trifle too blunt or obnoxious you have my full apologies) and if I am wrong, I will apologise to you again on the forum.
The main reason we do not use it at work is because it isn't broad spectrum enough. Any good disinfectant is going to be at least partially toxic/harmful to the animals if it comes into contact with them. I use bleach at work and at home because it is broadly effective (even destroying many bacterial spores), baceria are not likely to become resistant to it (unlike cyclohexadine) and it is inexpensive.
With reptiles, you may want to consider a 15 minute soak in straight household ammonia as this and live steam are the two disinfectants effective against cryptosporidia spores.

Ed

snakeguy88 Apr 29, 2004 10:08 AM

Sounds good. No apologies needed, even if you are wrong about the carcinogen point. I always enjoy listening to clashing ideas as that is where you learn.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: SurfAndSkimTx04
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

If you steal in hunger, I will kick you when you try. These stand for me. Name your god and bleed the freak. I'd like to see. How you all would bleed for me.-Alice In Chains

EdK Apr 29, 2004 10:27 AM

n/p

CokeOfMan Apr 30, 2004 04:43 AM

You also seem to know things about amphibians, and sometimes mentions your workplace. Where do you work?

Thanks alot for the replys, Andy and Ed.
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CokeOfMan

EdK Apr 30, 2004 06:15 AM

Check your e-mail.

Ed

EdK Apr 30, 2004 09:00 AM

I double checked with PR at work and they okayed my posting my work reference as long as I make the statement that the posts are my opinion and not necessarily the opinion of the Zoo.

I am the Lead Keeper at the Philadelphia Zoo's Reptile House. my main work area and interest at work encompansses most of the amphibian collection there. I work with a variety of species including Atelopus zeteki and Bufo baxteri. I have been working here at the Zoo for close to 13 years now.

Ed

CokeOfMan May 01, 2004 04:13 PM

Np
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CokeOfMan

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