Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Still working on the omelette recipe....J/K!!! My female knob laid 13 eggs on Sunday. That's her largest clutch to date. I think I'll give her the year off next year...I worry that she gets too drained, although she recovers fast, and puts weight right back on--by mid-June, she'll be her old monster self again. Still, 13 eggs is a lot. They are all well-calcified and healthy. I'll candle them in a few weeks to be sure, but she's had a 100 percent hatch rate for years, so I expect no problems.

I never use vermiculite--too sticky, and besides, most if not all of it contains asbestos--bad for the snakes, bad for me. I use long-fibered sphagnum moss, marketed at at garden centers as "green moss", and wet it with distilled water. I squeeze all the water out I can, until no more drips out, and that's the good moisture for herp eggs. The eggs go in an oversized jar (the large pretzel jars from those memership food warehouses are perfect), with about half the volume taken by the moss, and the eggs on top of that. I watch them for a few days; if they start to collapse, I add a paper towel, moistened with distilled water and squeezed out, which I remove when the eggs inflate. The jar goes on a shelf someplace where the temperature stays between 75 and 80 degrees, and except for a brief opening every few days to stir the air, I leave them alone. After about 70 days, the eggs will start to collapse, only this time it's because they are about to hatch. Once hatching starts, the egg mass is moved to a small cage so the babies won't tunnel into the moss and be a pain to get at. A water dish is provided, and most babies drink right away.

Good description of your incubation methods as well. Ive been using sphagnum the last few years as well and it works great.

Keith
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I thought that most mountain kings had relatively small clutches... 4 eggs being a normal clutch size, 6 being a large clutch size....

Should I be expecting more than 3 or 4 eggs for my Pyro pyro? She's been hanging out with her guy three days on, one day off, for the last couple of weeks. He sure gets excited! This will be her first year, but she has some real good size on her. She's almost as big as her mate, and he is old enough to be (and actually IS) her father. Since her name is "Lady" we've temporarily named her mate "Tramp" since he's only on breeding loan and has to be returned.
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~Sasheena

>>Should I be expecting more than 3 or 4 eggs for my Pyro pyro?

I have two or three clutches to go from my pyros, but so far here's the number of clutches of each size:

3 eggs: 3 clutches
4 eggs: 2 "
5 eggs: 4 "
6 eggs: 3 "
8 eggs: 1 "

the average clutch size is 4.8, the median is 5.

also, fwiw, the first two clutches--4 and 3 eggs, respectively--were slugs; in all the rest of the clutches either all the eggs were good or all but one was good.

the really good news is that in all the clutches but one, the father was a homozygous morph animal--i bred from two albinos, a hypo het/albino, and my hypoerythristic "anery" males.

peace

terry

(photo is of the hypoerythristic male copulating with a normal female)

Too bad I can't buy them here in Arizona, so I will never get into the "morph game" with them. Ah well. It's still nice to have them and to breed them. It's also interesting to know that my egg possibilities were a little off. So I won't be shocked when she has a HUGE "litter". Though I'll still count on three or four, since this is her first year breeding. Yours are so pretty. If you ever have any extra high end morphs that you just can't see yourself selling, feel free to give me some.

Actually, now that I wrote the above paragraph, I find myself wondering... in Arizona you can buy and sell Cal kings that are aberrant in appearance, and normal ones if you can prove that the parents were purchased and caught out of state (or something to that effect)... so I wonder if a person can buy pyros ... for some reason I always had this thought that you couldn't.... Ah Jeepers, I hate all that technical law mumbo jumbo. Mostly to avoid it as an issue, I just plain don't deal in wild caughts, and only have two snakes that fall under Arizona laws, though I have them completely legally. 'sall so confusing!
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~Sasheena

In AZ, herps are nongame, and under the management authority of the Game and Fish Dept. Any herp collected in AZ is under the Dept's management authority while it's in AZ. If a herp collected in AZ is removed from the state, breeds, and the offspring are returned to AZ, they are once again under the management authority of the Dept. The Dept has management authority over AZ wildlife and its progeny while in AZ, regardless of where the progeny was produced. While the Dept's authority ends when lawfully taken, held and transported wildlife leaves the state, UNlawfully taken, held, or transported wildlife crossing a federally regulated jurisdictional boundary, such as a state line, national forest boundary, indian reservation boundary, or international border, is a violation of the Lacy Act, and a federal crime, so illegally taken wildlife is always contraband from the moment a crime was committed with it.

The Dept also considers it unlawful to intentionally take herps for the purpose of exporting them to another state to breed commercially. Prosecution of such cases is problematical, but not out of the question.

>>The Dept also considers it unlawful to intentionally take herps for the purpose of exporting them to another state to breed commercially. Prosecution of such cases is problematical, but not out of the question.

So I breed and raise snakes as a hobby, but not as my full time occupation. As a hobbyist I make a little bit of money by selling the hatchlings. Then I move out of state, bringing my entire entourage of critters with me, but not really planning to change the way I breed and raise my critters... then since I would be bringing my solitary wild caught (and legally obtained) California King, and my Pyros (captive bred), would I be in violation of the law as I would most likely want to sell them if it was legal and allowable? I just have to ask, though hubby and I have no plans whatsoever to move out of state any time soon.

I've been to lectures by the field and game people (or whatever their name) and I've read their little brochure over and over, but still I find myself confused ever so much!!! Bottom line, I don't want to break the law. And I want to TEACH the law to my students. But it is so complicated. I think the biggest reason this is so complicated for me is due to the CAlifornia Kings. The pyros I consider unbuyable, unsellable, no questions, no problems. But Cal Kings are a whole different ball of wax. I have bought them here, and I have sold them here. But all the ones I've bought and sold are NOT natural looking Cal Kings. they are all wildly patterned. Someone gave me a "natural looking" cal king and I've been told she is not one that can be sold or bought--mostly because her actual history is unknown. I've seen the cal kings from the desert around here, and she does NOT look distinctively like the cal kings found in this area. They are dark brown or black with a very light creamy white. While she is very black and VERY white.

Anyway, my current plans are pretty simple in any case. I am planning on giving away the pyros I don't want to keep (and I will not exceed the limits set forth by law on how many I can keep... 4 per person in the household), and I will also give away the offspring of the possibly-wild-caught cal king. All my designer cal kings and their offspring, on the other hand, will be open game as far as being able to sell them.

Hope I got that right!

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~Sasheena

You're right to try to live within the laws and to teach them to others. One way to deal with it is to just let it go. That's my approach. As far as I'm concerned, there just isn't enough money in it to justify fiddling with wildlife law. What are we talking about here? One clutch of Common Kings? That's a wholesale value of around $100. There must be a side job that's worth $100 a year with no wildlife legal issues associated. A person could learn to shoot good photos and realistically expect to sell at least one a year to a magazine somewhere--that would be worth over $100.

The Dept's mission is to manage the State's wildlife so it will always be there, not to make it available as a cash resource. So far, they are doing a good job, IMO, and pretty progressive compared to some states that either aren't going to have herps eventually due to poor management, or some that don't allow the posession of any natives at all, which might be overmanagement. Arizona is a great place to see and posess native herps, and it's mostly due to the job done by our Game and Fish Dept. By the way, the Dept also invests plenty of resources into basic research as part of their management and educational mission, and a chunk of what we enjoy as recreational learning comes from their work.

By all means, breed all the legal pet herps you like, and become the snake tycoons of the century--why not? But there is so much available to breed and sell and work with in the trade, who needs the Arizona stuff? If you want to enjoy the company of Arizona herps, you can have some wonderful things that few others have access to, and if they can't be included in the market, it's small loss. There are some absolutely glorious knoblochi around, striking (no pun) Cal Kings, and more other species than any of us will ever have time or room for. All captive-bred and ethical to posess. Dig in.

Thank you for your well thought out response. I agree... why do the wild-caught thing when there are so many captive bred! I agree whole-heartedly! I have no desire to go out and catch a california king here in the desert and to keep it. I might, if I found one, take lots of snappy photos with my digital camera, and hope that some turn out, but no need to possess! I have my lovely snakes bred by Kerby, not that natural looking, but that's okay! I do have the one "possible wild caught" who is tame as a lamb, and I've had her since June. The only part of her history that is known is that someone brought her to a petstore to try to sell her, but they refused to take her as she is natural looking and the person selling her could not prove she was captive bred (nor did that person even make that claim, I believe). Since they could not sell her, they gave her to the pet store, who in turn gave her to a member of the Arizona Herpetological Association, who in turn gave her to me. Was she wild caught? Possibly. But she's been with us for a year, and I wouldn't release her at this point. I would like to bring her to my classroom as the classroom pet, but from what I understand that WOULD actually be against arizona law. So mostly I bring Florida Kings and my Rosy Boa (whitewater locale) in and leave the cal kings at home.
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~Sasheena

>>The Dept also considers it unlawful to intentionally take herps for the purpose of exporting them to another state to breed commercially. Prosecution of such cases is problematical, but not out of the question.

thanks for such an informed post. i do have one question, re: the sentences above. I go to AZ about once a year, partly just because the Chiricahuas are so great to be in, but also in the hope that i might someday catch a single pyro to include in my collection, it would be nice to have one animal with that tie to the wild. I buy the requisite fishing license. On a couple of occasions I've bumped into Dept people in the field, they've been uniformly nice and helpful--though my "score" remains 4 trips, I think, and 0 pyros. None of them ever suggested that my interest in having one to add to my breeding collection was out of line. I know you said prosecution would be problematical, but is your statement correct?

It seems it would be far more desirable for those legally caught-with-a-license and taken-out-of-state animals to BE bred, to reduce demand on wild-caught stock, than for them to be taken out of state and banned from commercial (read: a breeder sells the babies he produces) use. Did the state really write the law to the animal's disadvantage? Or ... ?

peace
terry

the Dept's thinking on this is that they are not in a position to manage situational legalities. They should take a position and enforce it. Exploitaion of wild-caught wildlife can be detrimental to the wildlife under certain circumstances. Arizona has decided to allow the posession of native herps, but not the sale or barter. There are some exceptions, like a taxidermist is allowed to carge a fee to mount a game animal you lawfully harvested, as long as the animal does not change owners as part of a financial transaction.

As to your example of searching for a Mt King: I begin by making sure you know I support your efforts--what you are doing is legal and allowable under the Dept's managemant, and they have the last word on the matter, as they should. Also, I hope you come to the Chiricahuas as much as you like, and have a wonderful time each trip, seeing all the herps you could possibly want, and collecting any that you are allowed, and will live a good life in your care.

I do notice, though, that you suggested that captive breeding reduces the pressure on wild populations. I agree, and CB herps are the salvation of this hobby, but you are still seeking a WC one for yourself. Again; go for it, and all the joy of the experience be yours, but that CB Mt King off the Internet is a sure thing (unlike the wild ones you have still NOT seen), and no loss to the wild. I've seen several wild Mt Kings, but the only ones I posess are descended from a pair I legally imported in the 70's after asking the opinion of the Law Enforcement Division at the Dept. I still don't sell them or their babies, and I don't take wild ones, just photos.

Good luck in your Kingsnake hunt. Maybe next time will be your lucky time.

I do notice, though, that you suggested that captive breeding reduces the pressure on wild populations. I agree, and CB herps are the salvation of this hobby, but you are still seeking a WC one for yourself. Again; go for it, and all the joy of the experience be yours, but that CB Mt King off the Internet is a sure thing (unlike the wild ones you have still NOT seen), and no loss to the wild. I've seen several wild Mt Kings, but the only ones I posess are descended from a pair I legally imported in the 70's after asking the opinion of the Law Enforcement Division at the Dept. I still don't sell them or their babies, and I don't take wild ones, just photos.

Point well made. On the other hand I said captive breeding "reduces" pressure on wild populations, not eliminates it! I bought or produced all 37 pyros I own, and the hatch data on the ones i bought asserts correctly, I think, that all of them were captive bred. So captive bred: 37; wild caught: 0. One wild caught specimen in that collection would prove the point of "reduced" pressures, don'tcha think?

On the other hand, you effectively pointed out the irony in my position (to catch one animal in the wild to have in my group). And you did it without insult: don't you know this is the internet?!

Speaking of ironies, you agreed that captive breeding can reduce pressures on wild populations, yet you don't sell the babies of the pair you own. Isnt' that missing an opportunity to contribute to what you called "the salvation of this hobby"? Or maybe you're in Arizona, which makes my point regretfully moot.

* -- if you've owned pyros since the 70s, can you reflect on the breeding results as they aged? I have a friend who's reported good eggs from a pair more than 20 years old. Did you ever experience anything like that?

peace
terry

Az Mt Kings do indeed have smaller clutches than knobs--my largest ever (or, more correctly, a female snake I owned) was six. Five is about average. Pyro hatchlings are considerably larger than hatchling knobs, too. I hope you have luck with your breeding. Hatch days are better than Christmas!