Reptile & Amphibian Forums

It seems we are no better then they are. I'd Like to hear you justify this...

One must not look far in the U.S.'s case to see monsters, We breed them here daily...

This also calls into question the lack of training received by such immature, and very SICK individuals, and the responsibilities placed in their obviously unfit hands.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/27/60II/main614063.shtml

As I do not agree with the mistreating of the Iraqi prisoners, you have to understand that just because they are acting like that doesnt mean all of the military is. No where in that article does it say anything about the Iraqi prisoners in Iraq, were and probably still are throwing venomous snakes, scorpions, and human waste on the guards or military police is that right? there are two sides to every story and though it doesnt justify beating, or torture of prisoners i think it is a little insane to say that the whole US military is disgusting or that we are all pieces of crap.

froggy
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The next time the shuttle lands, lets all get dressed up in ape suits and charge at the astronaughts yelling and ranting. That way they can try to figure out where they took a wrong turn.

From what we have seen of their hostage executions and abuse of our dead....Sorry, I'm dry eyed about it.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

... to say the least. You will live to see that the effect of these photos will be like gasoline sprayed into the fire.

Many people will think that this is only the tip of the iceberg. These soldiers were unlucky because they had been stupid enough getting caught.

Maybe many others who behave in a similar way are not getting caught, who knows?

This is what the people in Iraq will think. Surely they sense the contempt they are regarded by the US soldiers.

You went to Iraq claiming first to rid the country of weapons of mass destruction. When none were found you pretended you are the good ones and want to free the country from Saddams atrocities.

And now this...

Exchanging the plague for the cholera, huh?

The problem is...The feeling of contempt is mutual.

I don't hear tears falling for the innocent journalists that have been kidnapped and killed.

Sorry, I am no fan of this war but as earlier stated...I don't see any saints here either.

The critisim would be more believable if it was for the victims of both sides.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I think the problem is that it discredits our mission, which has been to liberate the Iraqi people from a brutal man, a brutal government. When "we" behave like cruel beasts we fail to distinguish ourselves from the cruel beast we are liberating the Iraqi people from.

More directly, this irresponsible behaviour will lead to fury against other coalition soldiers. It is also demoralizing for many troops to think that they are part of a brutal, cruel gang of hooligans that the locals rightly loath. Thats not a fair thing to do to their fellow soldiers, to the American people, to their commanders trying to win delicate battles, etc.

Here's a question. How many of you would contribute money or "things" to a collection going to innocent Iraqi victims of this war?

First, we don't treat Iraqi civilians this way, like Saddam's regime did. We treat prisoners of war this way.

Second, we don't condone this treatment. After all Saddam ordered and participated in physical torture, we on the other hand are prosecuting those soldiers that do this.

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And on a side note, I heard that the box/wires/electrocution thing was a way to mentally threaten them with harm in order to get information that would save American lives. I see no problem with this technique as long as no actual physical damage or torture is done. After all, the police are allowed to lie to suspects in order to solve crimes in this country, and I see little difference between the two.

If this was being done for reasons other than interrogation (like someone's sick idea of fun) then I condemn it completely.

Rodney

The big difference is that when an atrocity is discovered...We don't sweep it under the rug. The people involved are punished and the news media makes sure every home in the world knows about it.

In Iraq the perpetrators are called "Heros". In certain other countries everybody turns a blind eye and pretends its not going on -while millions die.

Enough with the moral bit.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

You have invaded a foreign country without any sensible reason!

Don't tell me the crap now about Saddams cruelty. Because following this reasoning you need to invade China and North Korea first and afterwards a truckload of countries in Central Africa where genocide took place and still takes place.

In view of this one could easily see you as the bad guys in this film. Nobody invited you to go to Iraq. Initially Saddam was not even your enemy. He even asked the U.S. for consent invading Kuweit then and got a reply that was either misleading or thought as a trap.

And now you are wondering why the people In Iraq are committing atrocities to your troops and other strangers?

Would all of this take place if your butts were still where they belong: In the United States of America?

Summary:
1. You invaded a country that had no quarrel with you (at least no quarrel that would justify a war).

2. Thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians (women and children) died because of your attack.

3. Many of your sun-glassed soldiers on their tanks behind the machine-guns are sneering to people which they regard as towel heads and second-class human beings.

4. And then you are wondering about the echo? And you dare to explain the cruetly to the Iraqi POWs with the attacks on mercinaries and journalists?

As far as I know in your country someone who shoots a burglar to death that breaks into his house will not be punished by law.

Hmmm... maybe you should think about the term "United States of the Hypocrates"

Since I was and am oppose to our being there I am going to ignore the first part of your statement (as obviously not directed at me).

That Sadam was not our enemy...That was wrong at least since the first Bush took office.

I don't wonder why the Iraqis are commiting atrocities. They have been doing it to anyone they disliked since the first hordes of Moslems settled in that region.

That we (implied) just belong in the United States would be a question of how many of our allies can survive and protect themselves and our interests overseas. Good thing for most of the world that we thought different in WW 2.

3. Those "towel heads" sneer at us as infidels. The Koran teaches them that we should be destroyed for not beleaving in Allah. No love lost on either side...Even without our sunglasses.

4. Who the ----Do you think you are to stand in judgement? I don't hear anyone in Iraq condemning their people for murder and torturing civilians. No, they praise those men who hide behind masks as Heros.

On the other hand, our general immediatly investigated and made arrests. Our media broadcasted and condemned the whole affair. I think that is a big difference.

Correction: In our country you can only shoot a burgular to death if it is in direct defence of your life.

Land of the Hypocrites...? I suggest you take a ride out and visit an old concentration camp or two. Then tell us how we are such monsters as you say....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Excellent pints made, but one fact left out. The United States prides itself in its"Image" as both a) Democratic and b)Humanitarian or peace keeping. This image, one of the rights of individuals, is not shared by most other governments nor military organizations in the world. Many are exrememly barbaric and adhere to no code of ethics. THAt is precisely why these actions of these few solidiers is particularly hineous. It doesnt fit the IMAGe we try so hard to show the world. but then ..neither does the invasion of a country and occupation for money and oil. Oh welll

Fred alburty

If you read my post again you will not find that I wrote you ONLY belong in the U.S.

I wrote you DO NOT BELONG in Iraq.

The people there are hating you? It's their right to do so because they are hating in their own country. But you are hating in THEIR country. That's the difference.

I agree with you that they hate from the beginning. But as long as they hate in their own country I don't care. And when they decide to come like we did during the crusades then we have the right to fight them, but not before.

You mentioned the medias? Do you know when the whole mess took place? It was at the end of last year (September, when I recall correctly - according to the German TV news)!!!

The U.S. army begged (or odered?) CBS to conceal it until now!

So the pathetic attempt of justification that the Iraqis dishonored the dead bodies of U.S. soldiers (in fact it were mercenaries) failed because the atrocities to the POW took place months before...

And it only turned out because these fools made photos. How many cases do you recon happened without any photos been taken?

Since you mentioned WWII: The reason why you went to Europe then was because Hitler invited you to go there by declaring war on the U.S.

I don't recall that Saddam declared war on the U.S.
But I recall that Saddam had been supported for years by the U.S.

And I also recall that he asked the U.S. before he invaded Kuwait.
The answer was that the U.S. would not interfere in internal affairs of these two countries.
Afterwards Bush sen. forged an alliance and went to war. Sounds like a major trap that Saddam put his food in it.

And when you (as it happens regularly in a discussion with a german citizen) bury in the German history and pull out the concentration camps then I need to pull out slavery and discrimination of the black people until the 70ies and the genocide on the indians. You see, you better don't open the book of history.

Regarding the correction of your law: Thank you for the information.

Actually you are arguing to the choir as far as our reasons for being there. That is why like I said, I did not address that issue. my earlier posts on other threads show my opinion of this war.

As to the slavery issue. No arguement; my point was not to say we are spotless..My point was, Niether are you. The difference reguardless of your claim is that inspite of the efforts of a few to cover it. We eventually find the truth and admit it. Unlike our critics.

I'll open any door on history...Hey lets go back to the crusades or the Jewish assault on Jerico. Much worse things have happened in the past...and are happening now than this...I make no excuse for the fools who did this. Jail would be good for them.

But what other country so readily brings it's own troops up on charges for atrocities. At this point 6 soldiers are up for courtmarshal and a general has been removed from his post. What country does that?

Show me one effort by the Iraqis to censor or bring to justice any of their so called freedom fighters and I might be more sympathetic.

The pathetic as you put it...justification is not what I offered. I really don't care about justification-there is no justification for this kind of thing.

But for people to scream that we are Hooligans and brutes because we occasionally step away from our halo when we are the only ones that even try to fight by civilized rules (the Geneva convention), is the deepest Hypocrasy of all.

I will mourn those who are innocent, but I cannot condemn my entire country for less than 20 bad apples That didn't even kill any prisoners...Or that kill and maim civilian enemy (which we all know happens in every war by accident (we don't target civilians).

I should point out that the Time that we did (In Viet Nam) we fully prosecuted the offenders.

...When the Iraqis have shown indiscriminate DELIBERATE bombing of THEIR OWN PEOPLE is acceptable to them...Again, I will not feel sorry for them

Big difference.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I find the hypocrasy of those who expect Americans to hold a high standard that their own peoples refuse to accept as contemptable.

As I was watching on TV Moslems using their own mosques* as storage places for weapons and staging areas for attacks. ..Putting Americans at risk because they know we won't fire on their churches* How dare you call us Hooligans?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

YOU ARE IN THEIR COUNTRY AND ATTACKED THEM WITHOUT ANY REASON, YOU KILLED LOT OF INNOCENTS.

You are the agressor and they fight with every dirty trick. They have no other possibility because they are like ants fighting an elephant.

The #1 military power of the world occupies a thirld world nation that is weakened by two wars and 10 years of sanctions.

And afterwards the #1 military power is complaining about dirty methods to fight the invader I call this hypocracy.

All these things would not happen when you would have remained in the U.S.

And now tell me I am wrong.

Large print doesn't work when I have repeadedly told you that I opposed the invasion of Iraq (to paraphrase a Bush (senior)...READ MY POSTS. I DIDN'T BACK THIS WAR.)

A country has a right to oppose an occupying force. However, there are certain things which this right of self defense does not cover. Like Killing your own people indisciminatly to get at your opponent. And the torture of hostages. (never in this have I said I approve of what the US soldiers did as represented in those photos).

Dragging charred corpses of your enemy thru the streets and abusing them does not win a battle for freedom...In fact it has the opposite effect as it stiffens your enemies resolve. So where is your justification.

If the people (on either side) act like savages. How can you expect anything other than contempt?

Americans won't fire on a church if they can possibly avoid it. Do you think it is right for our troops to be killed by an enemy that shoots us from those churches (mosques)because they know we won't shoot back?

Or do you think that(if you were in command of American troops and needed to capture the town) that we should fire on those Mosques and defend ourselves...knowing that we will be condemned for an atrocity?

Step outside of your bias and answer that one.

Sorry....Your arguements on the issue of attrocities does not justify any of it. They have the right to revolt against an occupying force....But there are limits that should be honored by both sides as to treatment of Civilians and prisoners/hostages. That is why Iraq did sign the Geneva Convention.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Of course we agree that strafing the enemy out of churches, taking hostages and abusing dead bodies is nothing else then acts of savages.

But:

The dead-body abusing thing worked very well in Somalia. Afterwards the U.S. retreated. Do you recall? So I totally disagree with you that this heartens the enemies resolve (particularly when the enemy is the U.S.).
Such footage put a public pressure on the government to leave the country (as it happened in Somalia). I think that is one thing that was intended with the abuse of the dead bodies.

And: Your government should have asked some Middle East specialist before going to war. They would have predicted all these happenings (including the mosque - thing).
Or maybe they should have cast a look on the Israel - Palestinian conflict. This would have been very educating.
The lesson would have been not to meddle with these savages there.

What I want to tell you is that you are dealing with lunatics. You can't expect them to fight after the Marquis of Queensbury rules. And: For the second time, you should have known this before.

But your government decided to send troops to Iraq (I know you also regard this a wrong). And this is their way to attack the enemy: With the most dirty tricks one can imagine. Again: Middle East specialists would have told it to you before (to tell it to you for the third time). Therefore one can say you asked for it by going to Iraq.

Geneva convention rules:

U.S. violated it in the war
Israel violates it almost daily
Iraq violates it

Seems that it is just a piece of paper...

As endlessly stated....

Read my earlier posts when I tried to explain the additude of the Moslem mind. It is all here just as I wrote it. I expected nothing less than the savegry they displayed. Unfortunately...I don't run this country and those who do chose not to listen to simple old me.

Our civilians might grow weak in the knees when facing the reality of war. I assure you our veterans view it differently. As Germany learned in WW 2, we dont take attrocities lying down.

I don't justify anyone who commits such acts. Just condemn the singling out of Americans when they stoop to the level of their attackers. For the common American (not the government)The hostage situation in Iran was the first big insult. 911 was the first atrocity.

Our soldier in the field is the common man...not saints. That is why i don't look for halos.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I hope that a thorough investigation is done to clarify exactly what happened. P.O.W.'s shouldnt be treated in this manner, IRAQ or not. Part of military training seems to be dehumanizing the enemy or stereotyping them, i.e. statements and descriptions like"Camel Jockies, towel heads etc" that way killing them and rationalizing that they too arent human beings, with familes. I'm not saying that the IRAQ soldiers would give U.S. POW's even a modicum of respect, and that too is TRULY wrong. The world is watching the U.S. as it continues to stumble in IRAQ, and many enemies have been created from actions such as the ones in this article. Peace cannot be won by force. Ask Israel. They will never have peace. but they exert quite a bit of force.

Sincerely,

Fred Albury

Fine...let the same investigators look into the attrocities that have been comitted not only against our troops but also,against foriegn journalists and civilians.

I don't buy that we should be the "moral compass" in a world where no one cares.

The double standard is enough to make me want to puke.....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I agree, the atrocities commited against OUR troops should DEFINETLY be loked into.As far as foreign journalst,the two that were shown on telivision turned out to be mercenaries that volunteered to go for profit.

Puke now

Fred Albury

What about the two Italians....and also, what about the two Japanese journalists that they were going to behead? Have they returned them yet?

War is Hell.....few saints fight them...far fewer win.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

AS far as i am concerned part of the problem is having journalists and photographers in war (no such thing as a impartial journalist). that does not say kill them it just says that like our soldiers there is an assumed danger you take when putting yourself in that position

Again there is a difference between a civilian (or civilian journalist)who is accidently killed by enemy fire (there is still the Geneva convention and it's rules about non-combatants)and the deliberate kidnapping, torture and execution of these people. There is a risk but also there are international agreements governing treatment of civilians.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3669331.stm

You say don't judge our military by the actions of a few...

I say our military is only as good as its worst soldiers....

... according to current German TV news these things happened last year.

U.S. army asked CBS not to make it public until now.

So why does the U.S. army indict these soldiers now and not when these things turned out half a year ago???

Np
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I say that is the most pathetic response I've ever heard.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Soory, but it is true, anyone with a ounce of sense knows this...

As a veteran I will not accept that the fine people I served with are to be discounted because of a few warped individuals. To measure us by our worst is totaly unfair to the millions that have served honorably and died (in many cases) serving honorably in defence of this country.

Not only My grandfather and father but myself and both my nephews served. One nephew saw combat in Iraq. You say we are no better than those punks?

That is why I find your previous post so offensive.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Yes really. Each and every soldier serving, what ever country, REPRESENTS that country and their military. Their actions reflect not only their training, but the training of their commanders etc. etc.

This also is a problem larger then just a few whacked out ppl, under stress. They have managed to to totally destroy that "Trust Us" image, we so desperately count on.

Bottom line. A Military is only as good, as the WORST person in it.. Get with the program....

Thar would depend upon who's program you're reffering to....I'm not famous as a joiner.

As to your response....I stand by what I said. Your statement is biased and totaly unfair to the generations of people who served this country well.....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."