Reptile & Amphibian Forums

to be perfectly honest, though it has only been a week, I sort of don't like the dirt setup. I only have space for a couple inches of it, so she isn't burrowing in it or anything, and it dries out much too fast (even with something covering the top). I also am really nervous about the size of some of the particles in the top soil. There's rocks that range in size anywhere from tiny fragments to pebbles nearly the size of her head, and every size rock in between. I know, you dirt users have never *experienced* an impaction, but it does happen, and I just don't want it to happen to my little (fat) girl. I think I may try something else in about a month, when I figure that I should be changing substrates anyways so as not to let bacteria build up (once again, though you haven't experienced it, it happens). Maybe I'll give sand a try or something. There's still a risk of impaction, but mostly just chronic impaction, which is less likely since an active reptile will usually pass the sand at a rate that it can't build up and clog them up. An impaction on a rock is basically a fatal impaction. The reptile will die right away because the rock will be blocking food from going through.

Just things I've been thinking about. Also, the dirt seems to get dusty quick. I have also noticed today that sam didn't even bother waking up for some reason until I woke her up this afternoon. Once I had waken her, she started eating some new greens I gave her since the ones in there were awful looking and she's basking now, but I am wondering what might have caused this sudden strange thing. She hasn't passed up a chance to eat since 4 days after I got her.

-ryan

I just have to add that my soil mix (top soil and sand) smelled funny after a couple days too.

I also had to go and dig Spike out to get him to come out of his cave. He wouldn't eat either unless I put it in front of him. Spike wouldn't burrow either.
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Lisa

1 Mali Uro - Spike
1 Leopard Tort - Herman
1 Shih Tzu - Jake

lisasmith@optonline.net
Monroe, NY

why did u switch to a soil setup if u where not able to provide enough substrate for youre lizard to dig in?!?! were talking about at LEAST a feet of dirt if not 2. a thing that cannot really be achieved in a regular glass aquarium. you need a BIG and DEEP enclosure( i would say at least 4x2x4). you also need to have to right soil mixture(that robin mentioned about 1000000 times) it need to be compact anough to hold a burrow, you need to experiement a lot with the right amount of water, and THEN you lizard will burrow. you cannot just trow a few inches of dirt at youre uro and expect him to eat more and grow be faster and burrow like crazy!believe me i tried that setup with my savannah monitors and it just worked so great! i notice a total change of habit and activity and they doing so much better since then!

that's what I thought too, but robyn kept telling me that even a couple of inches of dirt would be better than any of the other substrates. I'm just not really impressed with it right now I guess. Even if it was in a huge enclosure an a foot or two deep, I still don't think I would really like it all that much, but that's just me.

Sorry it didn't work out for you Ryan! But I would agree....I'd be more concerned with impaction than anything (esp with little pebbles). I had a uro that ate a piece of food that was slightly too large and he couldn't pass it. $300 later from xrays, vet visits, and pumping up with vitamins, he passed it 3 months later.

So I too just will stick with my normal stuff that works for me.

Renee

i dont seem to uderstantd something. if you have a dog....or a cat, do you remoove everything from the ground in the house just in case he eats it?!?!if you have fish, you dont put rocks and plants in the botom in case he grab one?!?!if you have a bird do u remove all the electric wires around the house in case he bites one and get a shock?!?!if you have a kid that like to play hockey, youre gonna tell him:no i dont want you to do any sports because you might get injured?!?!Yes lizards like any other animals can get impacted and injured by eating something too big, but HEY! birds need to fly, fish need to swim, dog need to bother us all day long, kids need to play hockey and uromastyx need to DIG AND BURROW! that seem pretty simple to me....tell me if iam wrong?!?!

Well Uro_Jay your not wrong, but your not completely correct. Not all species of Uros exhibit a need to burrow. In fact, I have one geyri who could care less about burrowing. On the flipside, my malis dig and dig and dig. I think Ryan was just trying to relay his experience with the soil mixture, pointing what he liked and did not like about the substrate.
Personally, if I had my specimens on this dirt substrate, I would sift thru it until I had every potential pebble out of it. Why might you ask? Because I try to maintain a reserve of funds for emergencies such as a visit to the vet. No large pebbles, no impaction, no visit to vet. But thats just my observation.

Best regards,

Carson

I agree. You have to treat uro's like as they would be in the wild- to the best of our ability. But my thought is that I have no idea what the soil/sand/clay is in the Northeast region of Mali, Africa and have never been there myself. There is not much literature besides saying that the northeast region where Mali's are found is dry, hot and sandy/dusty. Here is a link to what I had found on yahoo. There is 1 picture taken from the arid region. I have no idea what it would be like to burrow in that or what the mixture consists of.

http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-2275465-mali_slideshow-i

My uro had A LOT of soil but chose not to burrow. Instead he went to a burrow I had made for him and NEVER came out. I had to dig him out myself. He wouldn't eat and everytime I added water the humidity would shoot up and then come down, then shoot up again and then come down. I agree that there is some sort of humidity in the burrow since it is under ground but the rest of their enclosure shouldn't have drastic changes in humidity like mine was doing. Plus, we have no idea what the humidity is in a burrow in Mali Africa.

I am not sure if my was a CB or a WC. I rec'd him and he was 8 inches from head to tail. Some say that when you receive one as big as this they are WC. I am torn because I tend to believe that you are most comfortable in what you are used to. I switched from the soil setup back to sand because Spike was showing me signs telling me that he didn't like it. I'd much rather see Spike eating, enjoying himself, and basking than hiding in a cave, not eating, basking, and not coming out of the hide at all. He doesn't seem as if he is lacking anything being on a sand substrate. He actually seems more happier than he was on soil.

It could be that my soil mixture was not right but he didn't even try to burrow. How do I make a mixture if I have no idea what they burrow down into in Africa? Plus, from the looks of that picture - it doesn't look like much but sand to me. I am sure they have hides and caves and such that they can hide in but I haven't come across anything online to tell me what those look like and what the Mali uro's make them out of.

Anyone have any literature on this?
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Lisa

1 Mali Uro - Spike
1 Leopard Tort - Herman
1 Shih Tzu - Jake

lisasmith@optonline.net
Monroe, NY

I played around with dirt in a different setup just like I was told by everyone for several months before setting up my Ornate tank. I couldn't be happier with what I ended up with and my uro's seem to enjoy it very much. I am not sure what kind of soil Ryan bought but its not hard to get soil without rocks in it. I could probably go on for a long time about this but I only have about 9 inches of the mix and it is completely dry on the surface for about an inch and half deep and then you can see the moisture (clearly since this is an aquarium). I have pipe system that starts above the cage and runs along the back of the bottom with a few tiny holes in it that seems to work great. It sounds to me that the people that don't like soil don't experiment with it first and just try to make it work with thier uro on it and that is completely the wrong approach to take on this. If you are not ready to invest the time to experiment with this setup then please do not just throw dirt in a tank and put your uro's on it.
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1.1 Ornates (Lindsay Pike)
0.0.1 Mali

I agree with you. I am learning. I am a new owner. Everyone makes mistakes. How am I supposed to know what is the right mix besides experimenting with it and the most important factor is whether or not the mixture that I "think" is good is what my uro thinks is good? You don't know that until you put him on it.

But what I want to know more is where can I find information on the soil content in Africa? How do you know the soil that you have come up with is even close to what they have in the wild and how do you know that the humidity is what it should be in the burrow? I want to know what they would have in Mali Africa (their natural habitat) compared to what we are "thinking" is the correct setup for them. I want to know what I am experimenting with is close to what is their natural habitat. Is there any information/data on this somewhere?
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Lisa

1 Mali Uro - Spike
1 Leopard Tort - Herman
1 Shih Tzu - Jake

lisasmith@optonline.net
Monroe, NY

I agree with you in theory; it would be interesting to see exactly what the soil makeup in Mali is...But, natural habitats are much more complex than they appear, or that we could ever reproduce in captivity...what appears to be nothing but hot, dry, sandy soil may have many micro-habitats within it..Conditions such as heat and humidity may be significantly different on the lee side of a sand dune or at the base of a bush or in a pile of rocks, and in the wild animals can move freely from micro-habitat to micro-habitat during the course of a day or over the course of a season...

Common water snakes spend 99% of their time in water or mud, but in captivity if they're kept on a wet substrate all the time they develop nasty skin conditions..At least one factor in this is that in the wild if they move briefly to a drier area the hot summer sun dries them out completely and almost instantly...they may go through half a dozen of these quick dries during a day; so far we haven't been able to reproduce this in captivity and they must be kept on a dry substrate with access to a normal size water bowl to do well...

It's probably most useful to study the conditions under which the successful breeders (as in two or more generations) keep their animals..So far it seems to me that there are a number of different options that work well, with the only constants being hot and dry, with access to slightly more humid hides or burrows..

Just my 2 cents worth (well, maybe more like a nickel)..

SR

and what, for you is a successful breeder?!?! it is still verry hard to get a CB uro(of any kind)and they are still verry expensive. most of them are easy and inexpensive to get from importation, so why arent their more cb specimens available?!?!

Uro_jay,
In regards to the question on the difficulties in obtaining a cbb specimen, two of the most reputable and successful breeders are sponsors of this very forum. Deer Fern Farms(Doug Dix) and Urotopia(Lindsay Pike). In my estimation, the cost of cbb specimens is not that expensive. If one takes the amount of money required for vet fees, fecal exams and other ancillary items when procuring a wc specimen, the price is close to that of cb specimen. As to availablity of cb specimens, Uros are not the most prolific species. To date they have one clutch of eggs averaging around 12 to 16 eggs per year. In comparison to a bearded dragon, that can lay up to 4 clutches within a year, with an average of around 22 eggs per clutch. IF Uros proliferated at the rate of a bearded dragon, then I am confident the reasons to procure wc specimens would diminish accordingly.
How one determines who is a successful breeder is very subjective in nature, but I view a successful breeder as someone who given the stock he/she has produces sustained results yearly. A successful breeder is someone who provides quality specimens, not a quantity of specimens. Again, just my observations.

Best regards,

Carson

I know what you mean! It would be extremely interesting. I'd love to know. I work in pharmaceuticals and this is an experiment... Natural habitats are much more complex than they appear, I concur. We can't reproduce the natural habitat but a good part of trying to reproduce something close to the natural habitat in captivity - you would have to know the basics like what the natural habitat consists of and the conditions of which those habitats are derived. I am going to research what conditions other breeders are using. I am also very determined to find information about the Republic of Mali and find out what the arid region is made up of. I am not "rocking the boat" or saying that what works for others is wrong. I just want to know details of their natural habitat. I think it would be interesting to compare to what my captive set up is currently to that of a natural. Thanks for your nickle! It's greatly appreciated!!!
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Lisa

1 Mali Uro - Spike
1 Leopard Tort - Herman
1 Shih Tzu - Jake

lisasmith@optonline.net
Monroe, NY

Hi Lisa

We all experiment with our reptiles just to make them happy and we all had our ups and downs. I don't have the time to sit and observe my reptiles with this dirt mix for uro's and I wont use it, that's just me. But I'm not going to say it doesn't work for some. All it does I think really is give it some kind of so call "Natural Look", not to say I don't think it looks pretty. I keep my Uro's on white millet wild bird seed because I know the person that told me to use it experimented with it a long time and it works. Ok it doesn't look Natural but my Uro's are happy. I don't know Robyn but I give him prop's for taking the time to experiment with this mix for Uromastyx's. All I'm saying is if you have the time/months/years to sit and watch your uro's try new things. But if you don't, try things that are proven to work to keep your pet/breeding healthy. But this is what I think.

DragonChuck
I wish I did what Steve Irwin does

Hi,
I concur, I just wanted to know where I could find information and data. I haven't been able to come up with this information from my own searches. I tried something that is working for others (very well) but I too don't have the time to experiment. I also don't want to experiment on my uro and I am sorry that I did. I agree with you, don't try to fix what isn't broken. If mine is happy on sand and yours on millet, they are both happy and that is what matters. I am just saying that I don't have enough information besides the posts archived by Robyn and even with that I don't have enough experience with uros to determine what soil mixture works.

Thanks,
Lisa
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Lisa

1 Mali Uro - Spike
1 Leopard Tort - Herman
1 Shih Tzu - Jake

lisasmith@optonline.net
Monroe, NY

that's a great looking gecko, what species?
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Thanks
It's a Red Blotch Gargoyle. She is young and getting better looking with every shed.

Dragonchuck

i think a couple of these posts show that indeed the soil setup is not for everyone, for it takes time, patience, and applied thought, and some folks are definitely not down for that.

i have said many many times in the past, that it may take a few MONTHS to learn about the soil, how a particular mix works, how water content and humidity works, how well it burrows, and how well the animals make use of it.

Ryan has shown his own peronsal pattern a few times (and it is not an uncommon ks.com forum poster pattern). he makes a change in the morning, declares it the best thing ever by 10 am, starts to have misgivings at noon, and by dinner, he is 180 degrees opposite of his morning thoughts. the next morning, he starts with something new again.

Ryan, you gotta stick with something. SOMETHING. you can't learn about ANYTHING if you don't stay a course. millett, soil, or peanut butter, pick a substrate, and AT LEAST give yourself time to learn about it. really learn about it, don't just repeat something else you have heard on a forum, but really spend time and learn about it, gain intimate knowledge.

i have seen you call me everything from a genius to a dolt, all based on your current enthusiasm (or lack thereof) for our particular husbandry. all you have shown is that you truly lack the comprehension necessary for a soil setup. that's not a bad thing, but at least give yourself time to actually learn about it before bailing in, out, in, and out again. the one who pays the highest price for waffling is the poor animal that has sky high stress from constant change and inadequate care.

if a keeper is having trouble achieving the most basic aspects of a setup, like a decent temperature gradient, then i would not recommend tackling a more difficult subject like burrowable soil.

a good soil substrate is not an "advanced" technique, but it is not a beginner technique either.

good husbandry skills come with time, we all have to put that time in, so give yourself some!
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robyn@proexotics.com

Pro Exotics Reptiles

Well said Robyn
Ryan’s posts have made me realise that not everyone is ready to tackle with natural substrata, no offence Ryan I mean this in a good way!
However I really think one should not do any testing using animals without allowing them to adjust; it is stressful even if the uromastyx don’t show it. Therefore whatever we do must be in accordance to the animal’s welfare.

On an other note; for those wishing to sift there dirt, rocks in dirt helps retain moisture and keeps borrows from collapsing.

Rgds

I am also guilty of this. I jumped on the bandwagon so to speak because I was intrigued by making my uro happy and perhaps healthier in the long run. There he was one day, basking out on his sand, and I thought "maybe he isn't as happy as I think he may be". So I jumped in, got some dirt, mixed some up, played with water, watched it dry and thought my end result was something that my uro could use. Anyway, in the short, I tried soil and the soil setup is not for everyone because it definitely takes time, patience, and applied thought. I am down for it but I need to spend more time and more money on rubbermaid containers and topsoil to figure things out minus Spike. Spike isn't hurting on just plain ol' sand. He is quite happy and it's something he is used to. For the time being, I have to set up a "play area" and play with different mixtures. I also want a larger enclosure for Spike and the soil mix.

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Lisa

1 Mali Uro - Spike
1 Leopard Tort - Herman
1 Shih Tzu - Jake

lisasmith@optonline.net
Monroe, NY

I was all set with what substrate I was going to use (I think it was millet) before I started reading up on the soil substrates. That's when I started going back and forth and back and forth. When I first started researching on it, you seemed to have a different attitude than you do now. It seemed like you were saying anything besides soil is a bad substrate, and then anyone else I talked to locally that was breeding or raising uromastyx seem to say the opposite. Then I start doing research on uromasyx substrates in general, and the general consensus was sand or millet. So then I decide to do research on mali and wild uros, and it's obvious that they have sand and use burrows. So it's basically everyone's opinion against everyone else's opinion, and I've not had my uro for very long so I have no opinion. So now I'm trying to form an opinion on something, but there's still the dilema of what substrate to use and form my opinion on and all that, so forgive me if I seem to be running in circles with this whole mess!

By the way, my post was misleading in a way. I basically meant that I was a little disappointed in the end results of the soil substrate. I didn't mean I was going to go and take all of the soil out right now and replace it with sand or millet or something. I just meant that in a month or so when I do my substrate changes (mostly the bearded's sand...it seems to be getting dirty by now), I might do sand or millet instead, but then again I might stick with dirt. I still have to get the watering figured out and everything and it's just confusing. I'm supposed to be reading my animals right? Well, here's what I saw. I put my mali uro on soil substrate with some new stacks, and the first day everything was great. She was running around, the soil was still looking and feeling good, and she was a nice eating and pooping machine. The second day, still basically the same, but sort of sinking back into her "normal" self I guess. Then the days after that she's just been eating, and only basking enough that she [bleep]s every other day or so, and recently she hasn't been coming out of her hiding spot to eat or anything. I checked the temps and they're great. The basking spot is the top of her stack that's setup so one side of it is a nice consistent 140, and the other side is about 120, so she can choose between them.

So sorry if I'm a little confused. I've been running around with my bearded dragon who's never been quite right, mainly because of the place I got him from, so I'm still getting rid of parasites, but he's getting much better now so I might have more time to work on the dirt thing.