Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Why is it that geckos like AFTs are so popular and expensive? I know that they're cute and all but they aren't all that interesting. I just moved my Tokay into a 65 gallon and he is lovin it!

On the same subject, why are Tokays 10 dollar geckos yet when an albino or amelinistic is born they are suddenly worth thousands of dollars? I don't think people should be flaunting genes that are potentially dangerous to most animals (albinos are sensitive to light, most likely won't take in proper UV and develope MBD). The only reason I say this is because my albino leopard is suffering from MBD and it really bothers me to think that people mostly just see profit. I know, they are bred for their beauty and originality, and I admit, I own 2 albino reptiles and love each of them the same. But we need to stop seeing genetic flaw like albinism as a way to make a profit.

I know if I were selling Tokays to people they would be a 10 dollar gecko, but I wouldn't sell it to anyone that doesn't have at least a 65 gallon minimum, the proper lighting, the proper supplements, a well planted environment, and a nice little care sheet to go along w/ it. To me, that seems like a better way to make a profit...

I have 2 AFTS and 2 LEOS(1 normal and 1 ghost)and love them the same though my favroite of the 2 species are the AFTs.I also have 2 tokays which are normal and I love em alot. People who buy super cool phases and morphs though are people who want to spend tons of money on a reptile and if they do they probaly reasearch there purchase first.I think morphs are good because only the people who wan to spend lots of money on a lizard probaly nows som estuff about lizards.
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Tarentolas@hotmail.com
Geckos
1.1.0 Gekko gecko
2.1.0 Eublepharis macularius(blizzard,ghost and normal)
2.0.0 Hemitheconyx caudicinctus(normal and striped)
1.0.0 Tarentola mauritanica
1.0.0 Hemidactylus turcicus
Other Lizards
0.1.0 Basiliscus vittaus
1.0.0 Physignathus cocincinus
0.1.0 Anolis carolinensis
1.0.0 Chamaeleo calyptratus
1.0.0 Iguana iguana
Boidaes
1.0.0 Python regius(Lenny)
0.0.1 Boa constrictor imperator(Carl)
Turtle
0.1.0 Chrysemys picta

Some Elaphe guttata soon!

I agree, I do like the AFTs for their higher tolerance to humidity which makes setting up a cage pretty fun. But I still don't believe that albinism should be so hyped up. You don't see people in the world that are albino get praised. Anyways, if you're going to praise albinism in reptiles, remind people that it's not a very good gene to get. Remind people about the risks that your animal takes by being albino. And please, let's not charge a couple thousand dollars for an albino Tokay. It is a genetic mutation, not a dollar sign. If you think you can take something you got for 10 dollars, get lucky while you breed them, and turn it around and sell it for thousands? Something is wrong with you. Look, breeding and getting Tokay eggs to hatch is a hard task, so congrats to those guys who are attempting to do this (pats myself on back). But God, if you truly love the animal, see it for what it is, not how much you can make.

I don't think you should be getting angry on this forum becuase no one on this forum is complaining or agreeing on albinisim.

There are very few herp breeders out there that do it just for the money................................face it they love herps!
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Tarentolas@hotmail.com
Geckos
1.1.0 Gekko gecko
2.1.0 Eublepharis macularius(blizzard,ghost and normal)
2.0.0 Hemitheconyx caudicinctus(normal and striped)
1.0.0 Tarentola mauritanica
1.0.0 Hemidactylus turcicus
Other Lizards
0.1.0 Basiliscus vittaus
1.0.0 Physignathus cocincinus
0.1.0 Anolis carolinensis
1.0.0 Chamaeleo calyptratus
1.0.0 Iguana iguana
Boidaes
1.0.0 Python regius(Lenny)
0.0.1 Boa constrictor imperator(Carl)
Turtle
0.1.0 Chrysemys picta

Some Elaphe guttata soon!

I hear ya, no doubt they love 'em. I just wanted to let off some steam. It's really frustrating sometimes when your spaz lil leopard suddenly doesn't move very much. It hurts me to see her in so much pain. On top of that I have a vet who keeps telling me that it's probably not MBD. I do appreciate the calcium shots he has given her though. Once again, just letting off steam. Please disregard.

A couple of responses to your points:

I think that certain geckos become popular for a couple of reasons. This hobby is just as susceptible to fads as any other, and when something like an AFT comes along, with it's potential for a large number of morphs combined with relative ease of care, there are going to be breeders who produce them in hopes of capitalizing on people's need to posess the newest unusual color or pattern. Personally, I happen to agree with you that AFT's are not all that interesting or attractive, any more than most varieties of leos. That being said, there are plenty of people who think these guys are Da Bomb, and market forces will dictate the price of getting the Latest and Greatest morph.

With respect to Tokays, the reason they are so cheap is that 90% of them in the pet trade are WC, obtained for almost zero cost. I would hazard a guess that demand for these guys is lower than for AFT's, for example, because of a) reputation for agressive behavior and consequent un-handleability; b)greater care requirements and larger appetites, making them less apt to be desired by beginning herpers; and c)lack of captive breeding programs, resulting in fewer aberrant color or pattern morphs.
That's why an albino Tokay is such a rarity, and the price so much higher.

I agree with you (and Ingo) that larger tanks are better for Tokays, but I would disagree with your contention that albinism or other genetic variations pose a significant danger to the animals' health. As Italvital points out, dietary supplementation should address the animal's health needs without regard to skin pigmentation, and as Tokays are nocturnal anyway, UV sensitivity should not even be a concern.

If you are offering to sell CB Tokays for ten bucks, let me be the first in line. I'm not sure how you can guarantee that the person you sell to meets all of your minimum standards for housing, lighting, etc. without personally delivering the gecko yourself. Generally speaking, CB animals cost more than WC, and every CB Tokay I've ever seen has been about twice the cost of WC. I'll buy CB over WC any time I can, but sometimes it's just not possible.

Please don't take this post as an attack, just my 2cents. You raise a good point that breeders should be in it just for the love of the animals. Unfortunately, pure altruism is about as rare as an albino Tokay.

Chris

If the quantities of calcium and vitamin D3 are monitored and altered accordingly, no animal should have MBD (with no regard to morphs or phases). Your gecko mostlikely is having trouble processing the calcium, so up the D3. Also, what about those who cannot afford to buy a 65 gallon for a tokay (a 65 is not necessary)? Just remember when you start selling your own geckos like everyone else, know that if you are discriminatory to who you sell to, you may limit someone's chance to experience and learn about these animals. Actually, you would not sell anything...And look deeper... every animal has its beauty whether physical, behavioral, etc. I love house geckos. They make me smile more than U. phantasticus. Why is new technology so expensive? High demand for new STUFF...Remember we humans are a bit materialistic and superficial so new phases, morphs, species, etc., appeal to herp nuts like the new Mac computer would appeal to a computer nut.
Hope this helps,
Ashton

ya I know tokays don't need a 65g cage,in the Tokay Gecko Manual it says 2 in a 20g is fine,though i have my 2 in a 55g.....................i had the cage so why not.....eh

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Tarentolas@hotmail.com
www.freewebs.com/reptiles4sale/
Geckos
1.1.0 Gekko gecko
1.1.0 Eublepharis macularius(ghost and normal)
2.0.0 Hemitheconyx caudicinctus(normal and striped)
1.0.0 Tarentola mauritanica
1.0.0 Hemidactylus turcicus
Other Lizards
0.1.0 Basiliscus vittaus
1.0.0 Physignathus cocincinus
0.1.0 Anolis carolinensis
1.0.0 Chamaeleo calyptratus
1.0.0 Iguana iguana
Boidaes
1.0.0 Python regius(Lenny)
0.0.1 Boa constrictor imperator(Carl)
Turtle
0.1.0 Chrysemys picta

Some Elaphe guttata soon!

I haven't read the book, but putting a Tokay in a 20 gallon is rediculous. Would you put your 14 inch Beardie in a 20 or 10 gallon tank? I don't think so. Tokays get big, and they need space. Remember this, nature is always bigger. The bigger the tank the better. This does not apply to all species, but for arboreal species it is a necessity. Why do you think Tokays are so aggressive towards you? Maybe because the small space you put it in is stressing the hell out of it. Maybe that's why they're only expected to live for a short time because people follow advice like yours. Ever since I put my Tokay in my 65 gallon, he has been a doll. Go talk to Ingo, and tell him that a 20 gallon is fine for a Tokay. He even says that 65-100 is small for them. I kind of feel bad for him in his 65, but I will wait a few years til my hydroponics starts to fail, then I will put him in a 175 or larger.

People have there opinions.......................I am not going to argue with you,I am not the kind of person.
-----

Tarentolas@hotmail.com
www.freewebs.com/reptiles4sale/
Geckos
1.1.0 Gekko gecko
1.1.0 Eublepharis macularius(ghost and normal)
2.0.0 Hemitheconyx caudicinctus(normal and striped)
1.0.0 Tarentola mauritanica
1.0.0 Hemidactylus turcicus
Other Lizards
0.1.0 Basiliscus vittaus
1.0.0 Physignathus cocincinus
0.1.0 Anolis carolinensis
1.0.0 Chamaeleo calyptratus
1.0.0 Iguana iguana
Boidaes
1.0.0 Python regius(Lenny)
0.0.1 Boa constrictor imperator(Carl)
Turtle
0.1.0 Chrysemys picta

Some Elaphe guttata soon!

Do you mean Leopard Gecko when you say its suffering from MBD? Leo's dont require UVB...so it cant be from that. Are you offering enough calcium? I doubt it has anything to do with UVB absorbtion, and more your husbandry skills,...unless this is an animal you've just aquired, and had MBD when you aquired it.

~Crystal
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Crystal Light (Yes..that's my real name)

*Whenever you lose a gecko, just think of it as God building on his own Leopard Gecko collection

The Gecko Barn

...

I didnt mean to make it sound like I was trashing your husbandry skills...I was just referring to something that might not be right, eg: calcium, heat...or something of that sort.
Sorry! Didnt mean for it to sound so bad!

~Crystal
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Crystal Light (Yes..that's my real name)

*Whenever you lose a gecko, just think of it as God building on his own Leopard Gecko collection

The Gecko Barn

Obviously my husbandry was off. The calcium I was using was not phospherus free and I did not know that a positive phospherus to calcium ratio would result in MBD. Nor did I realize that I had a positive ratio. Obviously when I looked back on it I found my mistakes and I can guarantee they will never happen again.

Pleas keep in mind, that this is my first year ever trying to breed anything, and I have not owned a reptile since I was 6. Of course, everything is all relatively new to me, and I'm glad to see that reptiles are living very long nowadays.

So rather than people pointing out the obvious (which was not the topic of this forum at all), I was simply saying that albino Tokays shouldn't be so overpriced.

One thing I do not appreciate was that comment about how people would never buy anything from me because I would make them have the requirements for the animal. Look at it this way fello. You say that people aren't gonna have enough money for a 65 gallon tank, plus a tokay, plus a light, and what not. But yet people have money to get a couple Leopard geckos, plus tank, plus light, and what have u?

Let's do some math.

1 Tokay gecko $10 1 65 gallon tank plus screen top $75 light and bulb $20, plus spray bottles, decor, and all the other goodies $20 = $125

2 Leopard Geckos (since most people can't have just one) $100 1 20 gallon tank plus screen top $50, plus light and bulb $20 supplements, decor, water bowls and what else $20-30 = ~$200

So which costs more man? Don't go making accusations about how I will never sell anything because I care about my animals well being. I pray that you never sell anything BECAUSE you don't care about the people buying your animals. YOU raised those things man. You are the perfect example of what I hate.

Man you need to chill out, don't go attacking people on their husbandry skills when yours aren't even up to par yet. Next time you come onto this forum and plan on maliciously attacking people, do some research before hand. Also take into consideration of what people have an interest in, don't go knocking leo's or aft's. Just because you don't like them doesn't give you any right to go and say they are a pointless herp to keep. Your opinions of people and color morphs should have been kept to yourself, if you truly realized how many top notch breeders are on these forums, you woulda bit your tongue on that one. Most breeders aren't in the business just mearly for profits, but more for the hobby and to see what cool morphs they can produce. When you say you won't sell to anyone that has anything smaller than a 55, good luck. Many people want to keep leo's in a 10g, but i think a 20L should be the minimum, but truth being, you can't control the size of habitat once that herp leaves your hands. Next time you come on these forums to "blow off steam" or whatever you call it, go somewher else, noone here wants to hear it.

Normally, I wouldn't reply to a message on a forum I started about a week ago, but this case is different.

Honestly man, do you know how to read? Because you obviously did not read anything I said, and if you tried you did not understand the concept of my argument.

Let's start with point 1. This topic was never started necessarily about Leo's, it was started about AFT's and Tokay's that are 20-25 dollar animals on the market and are suddenly costing thousands of dollars just because they are albino. Now, them being nocturnal, I know albinism is not a big concern with them. And thank you for your extremely immature remark about my husbandry skills. I realized my mistakes, and have sinced corrected them, and have also begun rehabilitation for my Leopard suffering from MBD. And am very pleased to say that she is doing much better. Although the effects of MBD are irreversible, she should be fine and live a long life. But, in reality, albinism could prove dangerous to any species that requires UV light to prosper.

Point #2. No where, did I ever say that a Leopard gecko should be kept in a 55 gallon tank (nor did I ever mention a 55 gallon tank). Once again, this was mostly started about Tokay geckos. Let's not get all crazy and defensive of our beautiful ground geckos for nothing, k guy? Then kay.

Point #3. Bashing others husbandry skills? When? Could you clarify that for me? Thanks a lot!

Point #4. What I am asking is not unreasonable. Ask any breeder and they will tell you that as a breeder, the most important thing is to make sure your animal is going to have a good home. You raised that thing, it represents your heart and soul and the love you put into caring for it. Why let all that go to waste when you're gonna sell it to some yokel that will let it crawl around on his wall for insect control. Sounds like a great home, eh?

FYI, I currently have over 20 breeding adults which will be missing next season do to me moving. Yessir, over 20 Leopards that I think are "bad herps", as you put it. Projects including: Tremper, Tremper Giant, Las Vegas, HT, SHCT, Hypo-Striped, Hybino, Blizzard, Patternless, and Blazing Blizzard.

For future reference, read the posts over again and make sure you're understanding what I am saying before you start making rediculous accusations.