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ghost pyros? super-ghosts? audience participation required!

rtdunham Apr 30, 2004 03:08 PM

Jason Baylin and I initiated a project this spring to take the first small steps towards eventually producing ghost -- or "super ghost" pyros. Jason put his female "Sentz" line hypo pyro on breeder loan with me to breed x my "anery" (hypoerythristic) pyro male (which i got from ric blair, who got it from the person who caught it). The results to date are shown below: she laid a clutch of six eggs this morning, all of them apparently good.

(Jason's female is of the very pale type of hypo originally referred to as "memmo" hypos because of frank memmo's involvement, and more recently referred to as "sentz" hypos because of steve sentz' earlier ownership of the foundation stock. They're also sometimes called "cover" hypos because of jack cover's earlier involvement. They're much lighter coffee-and-cream brown than the hypos produced by brian barczyk, which i'm also working with. But it's not yet known with certainty whether the two are unique morphs or variations on a single hypo morph: early breedings by jeff teel and mark petros suggest strongly that that might be the case, but a few more test breedings are required before that can be established as fact. This same uncertainty and testing is also underway with the new "extreme" hypo Honduran milksnakes first produced by mike falcon, btw.)

So the babies from the eggs shown will be double het for sentz hypo and "anery" hypoerythristic (again as explanation for those who haven't been following pyro morphs, the "anery" is more accurately called a hypoerythristic, because as can be seen in the photo i posted yesterday of it copulating with a normal, it's really a pale pink...some red, or color from erythrins, is still present, so "an"erythristic--meaning NO erythrins--is incorrect: A true anery would be only black and white and possibly gray. But the anery term is also incorrect for "an"erythristic hondurans, most of which clearly retain a very pale pink or pale orange coloration, and efforts to call that hondo morph the more accurate "hypoerythristic" instead (first proposed by Louis Porras) have not cuaght on. The pyro "anery" retains even more pink than the hondos, though, so whether or not the hondo nomenclature catches up with accuracy, someday the terms for the pyros may have to be refined. Right now I try to use the terms in combination, to increase awareness of the distinction--maybe eventually we can drop anery in favor of the more proper and descriptive term.)

But these difficulties show how important it is to pick the best names right from the beginning.

All of which leads to several questions: The expectation is that the 1/16 of babies from these double hets will be BOTH hypo and "anery" (hypoerythristic) -- very pale versions of the anery (hypoerythristic) -- they should be pink and light creamy brown and white. But is the term "ghost" the right term to describe those animals? It's usually used to describe the double-homozygous offspring of hypos and true anerys (but it's bastardized to use with the "ghost" honduran, too). If not "ghost," then what? If a true anerythristic pyro shows up someday, totally free of pink or red or orange (no erythrins) IT should properly be called anerythristic, and the double-morph babies of it and hypo should properly be called ghosts. PLUS, if there do end up to be TWO different hypo morphs, how do we distinguish between what might ultimately be two different types of "ghosts"? So there are some challenges here, and the forum is as good a place as any to pursue the best answers.

Personal opinions: As is being proposed with hondurans, if there turn out to be two diff types of hypos, the lighter ghosts, with greater degree of melanin reduction, would be called "extreme" ghosts; that same distinction might work with the pyros, if the ghost terminology is adopted--there could be ghosts, and "super" ghosts or "extreme" ghosts. Yes, "sentz" hypo and "blair" anery would communicate what animals we're talking about. But there are a couple problems: 1) look how the "sentz" line was formerly something else, and is also now sometimes referred to in yet a third way, referencing a potentially even earlier owner of the line. So name-based terminology has its shortcomings, most especially the fact that... 2) Neither term is descriptive--neither tells how THAT hypo or THAT anery is different visually from other forms of that morph that already exist or that might turn up someday.

If the barczyk and sentz hypos prove to be the SAME allele, then they'd both simply be hypos and i guess there's nothing wrong with distinguishing LINES of a morph by referring to the owner's name. But what happens when they're inbred and animals appear showing features of both lines?

And you thought our challenges as herpetoculturists were merely to get the animals to breed!

Meanwhile, besides hoping that all six of these eggs hatch, i'm sure jason's hoping along with me that we end up with 2.4 !

peace
terry
Image

Replies (9)

Sasheena Apr 30, 2004 06:52 PM

Phantom Pyros. Sounds nice.
-----
~Sasheena

rtdunham Apr 30, 2004 11:37 PM

>>Phantom Pyros. Sounds nice.
>>-----
>>~Sasheena

Sasheena, the "phantom" pyros are the ones I keep going to arizona for on unsuccessful hunts!

terry

Sasheena May 01, 2004 08:40 AM

Ah I told you it was a good name.

I doubt I would ever have the perseverance to find one in the wild. I'm quite happy with my little captive bred female, and her on-loan long-ago-wild-caught beau. I'll be sad to give him up, but excited by the anticipated eggs. Just hope I didn't breed her too late in the season.

And still the waiting game continues... when oh when are these fat snakes gonna lay?
-----
~Sasheena

shannon brown Apr 30, 2004 07:50 PM

Terry,Extreme gets my vote for the sentz line as does the falcon line?
Until we can prove it is differant then we need to assume that it is just a refined example of the hypo line that already exsists.
Extreme ghost would make sense if the falcon or sentz line was used in conjunction with the anerys/hypoerythristics?

I still find it very very odd that the B.H.B. line produces both amels and hypos from the same clutch?????I think we may be overlooking something?
Maybe,just maybe the sentz line is the only real hypo and the B.H.B line is a differant type of albino and thats why there has been no dbl-homo come out of that breeding?Maybe one masks the other?

As far as the applegate x others are concerned you are in the drivers seat?
You should be the first one to produce them and since there is no name for the applegate morph???????????
I could see albino candycane,hypo candycane etc.?

Anyways,Looks like we are going to have some fun in the next several years.

Why hasn't anybody put the sentz and B.H.B lines together to put it to rest???

Shannon Brown
King of Honduran bling bling

Tad Fitzgerald Apr 30, 2004 10:06 PM

Terry,

That's a tuff one! I don't think I would put a definite name to them yet. I would probobly call hetero offspring double het for a new "ghost type morph", yet unnamed. Then describe the genetics behind them as you have done.

As far as the nomenclature "experts", you can't possibly satisfy them. I would simply honestly represent them as what they are and name them according to what I felt best described them.

What an exciting project! It temps me to get back into pyro's again. Hmmm....

Tad

rtdunham Apr 30, 2004 11:58 PM

I still find it very very odd that the B.H.B. line produces both amels and hypos from the same clutch?????I think we may be overlooking something? Maybe... the B.H.B line is a differant type of albino and thats why there has been no dbl-homo come out of that breeding? Maybe one masks the other?

Yeah, but think about it, albino pretty well "masks" hypo anyway--if melanin's eliminated from an animal, how could you tell if it were also showing the effects of a morph that REDUCES melanin? Like subtracting something from nothing!

However, i've got an animal that very probably IS a double-homozygous "hybino" (hypo and albino) from brian's animals: it came out of animals capable of producing such a genotype/phenotype, and it sure looks like one. I was hoping to test it this year (the amelanistic nature of the animal is obvious; i was going to breed it to a hypo and if i got all hypos, that would strongly support the belief that it is hypo as well, and thus a double-homozygous specimen. (it got a mouth infection in brumation and spent the last two months at the vet's--ka-ching!--but it's fine now, i got it back today, it actually put on weight while it was there, great vets, but it did miss this year's breeding season)

And I know there are red and "orange" hypos, but the diff in this animal is far greater than any red/orange diff i've seen on wildtypes. I post this pic reluctantly, it's a year old and not a real good picture. I'll try to post a better photo tomorrow of the animal i'm describing.

>>

>>Why hasn't anybody put the sentz and B.H.B lines together to put it to rest???

NMostly because there are so few of each kind in existence, i guess. I'll let them post the details here, but i think both jeff teel and mark petros did that cross, perhaps using hets, and produced small numbers of animals suggesting the two hypos are different alleles, but they didn't produce enough babies to prove it. (jeff, mark--pitch in here, have i got that right?!)

>>Shannon Brown
>>king of honduran bling-bling

"bling bling" LOL!
Image

jeph May 01, 2004 12:18 AM

Hey Terry,
As for Mark and I's breeding experience with the 2 different hypo lines, it went like this. I dont reallt want to speak for mark here, but I'll just put diwn what hetold me. He bred his BHB hypo x a het-Sent hypo and got 8 eggs from the het-sentz hypo and all 8 hatched normal.

Now, I bred a Sentz hypo female x a het-hypo BHB line male-(also remember that these hets are hets from Brain, and I've heard that some of the hets may or may not be het for waht they called hets for. It would be easy for that to happen though, as when Brian first started producing hets and hypos, he had a sentz line hypo that he bought from Frank memmos at a show-at that time Farnk didnt know what it was but realized what a mistiake it was and kept the other pair, he had got 3 hypos and 2 normals from a clutch of 2 normal pyros on loan from Steve Sentz) well back to the breedings, that breeing I did produced 6 eggs, within a week or 2 all 6 rotted, but my sentz line female hypo is pretty big, she quickly put weight back on and was paired with the het-hypo BHB male only once and went straight into shed again-(her 2nd clutch) and she laid 3 good eggs. tehy hatched 2.1 and all were normal. So with those breedings we can only think fo the 2 hypo lines being different. But as I've said before untill we breed a BHB hypo x a SENTZ hypo we will not be 110%.

But from most all pics I've seen of BHB hypos, they are darker than sentz line hypos, the dark bands on sentz animals are like a coffe-cream color, when they are hatching they are almost lavender-(for any one wanting to see a pic of a sentz hypo hatching go check through the kingsnake photos on the kingsnake.com photo gallery, Steve Sentz had posyed pics of the male he hatched out last year- a super nice looking hypo) but then BHB hypos are lighter than normals. The pic you have Terry on your site would be a good one to post here, the one with your BHB hypo male, Jason baylins Sentz hypo female, and the normal with it, you can realy see the difference between all 3 of them in that pic well. Anyways, heres my picthing in, and also- shannon- Honduran bling-bling-, thats hilarious , snake breeders man, you gotta love them,lol.
Jeff Teel
"IE represent-baby pyro bling-bling...lol"

shannon brown May 01, 2004 12:32 AM

I had never seen that pic before but I would have to say that it does look like a dbl-homo.
I would guess that the real hybino honduran will be pale or orange as well?
We should know this year right terry?
Terry is the pyro pimp daddy.

shannon

rtdunham May 01, 2004 10:46 AM

"pyro pimp daddy" --
shannon you get funnier & funnier!

NOTE THE REST OF THIS DEALS WITH HONDURAN ISSUES, NOT PYROS:

you wrote:
>>I had never seen that pic before but I would have to say that it does look like a dbl-homo. I would guess that the real hybino honduran will be pale or orange as well?
>>We should know this year right terry?

Well, i wish, shannon. The male in question (SEE TWO PIX at bott of this post) a pale tangerine albino with 25% chance of also being hypo and thus hybino, was a slow feeder, slow grower. He's at about 240 grams now (I kept feeding most of the winter and brumated him only a month, to get him to that size). I wanted to breed him x a hypo, see if all the babies were hypos then he'd very likely BE a hybino. (1) But he never pursued the female i put him with, and i eventually bred her x a different male instead. (2) It's ironic both of my potnetial hybinos, that i wanted to test-breed this year, couldn't be tested. (3)

peace
terry

about the "footnotes"
(1) remember that even if i breed him x a hypo and get, say, six babies, and they're ALL hypos, that doesn't PROVE he's a hypo, because you COULD breed a het/hypo x a het hypo and get all hypo babies. Odds would predict 3 of 6, but it's not that much of a stretch to imagine 6 of 6. Anybody here ever hatched six babies, all of which were males? I have. So it takes a pretty good sized sample or data pool to really prove the animal is a hypo...the "hybino?" hondo is a male, so i could breed it x 3-4 hypo females next year, and that should reveal the truth. Of course, it only takes one NON-hypo baby to prove he's not, that's the simpler test! The "hybino?" pyro is a female, and with their smaller clutches, it's gonna be a while before she can be proved. PLUS the male i planned to use with her is hypo HET/ALB, so half the babies would be albinos, so even fewer chances for obvious hypos to emerge & provide insight into her genetics.
(2) I preach on here a lot about not drawing false conclusions--when i say he didn't show interest in the female, i mean I WATCHED EVERY SECOND AND AM ABSOLUTELY SURE he not only didn't copulate, he didn't even react to her. I stood there with the box open. Otherrwise--and this is what gets me on the pulpit--if you leave them together for a couple hours and afterwards still don't SEE any signs of breeding, that does NOT mean they didn't breed, and putting the female with a diff male and assuming the 2nd male is the fatyher of her offspring would be a risky and inappropriate assumption. (I know YOU know this shannon, i'm just reminding some of the newer breeders of this...i've run intoi plenty of incidents where people THOUGHT they knew who the father was, thought a prior male didn't breed, and the resulting babies made quite clear that the early one did after all. In fact, i had this happen last year with one of my ghosts, it had been left with a female but i strongly believed had never bred, but because i couldn't be sure, the second male i used with the female was a different genotype that would produce babies that could be told by sight which male produced them...and as it turned out i got one or two babies fathered by the ghost, though i was 99% sure he'd not done the job. BTW, the lady i sold the ghost male to dirt-cheap before the babies hatched was delightyed to hear she'd in fact bought a proven breeder at a bargain-basement price!)
(3) No, the fact both hybinos failed to breed this year does NOT suggest any weakness in the morph (there's always someone who volunteers, "I heard xxxx are weak" every time someone says, "gee, my albino laid slugs this year" or whatever. Taint so!) In this instance, facts are that the pyro got a bone infection from substrate lodged in her upper jaw during brumation--can't attribute that to genetics, unless you really want to stretch LOL. And the male hondo was simply one of those animals that grew slowly. I've had it happen to normals. And i have a female like him that was over 500 grams at 18 months, so can't blame his relaxed attitude toward growth on genetics either!

peace
td

NOTE: PIC is of pale honduran i think might be a hybino, not pale pyro
a 2nd look at hybino? hondo--NOT in deep shed, just diff
a 2nd look at hybino? hondo--NOT in deep shed, just diff

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