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"Designer Kings"

kingaz May 01, 2004 12:09 PM

I made a classic "newbie to herpeteculture" mistake a few months back on this forum by calling snakes that were line-bred for mutant color morphs "hybrids". I was kind of flamed and reminded that herpeteculture only considers a cross between species as a hybrid. I still have a question on non-hybrid snakes that are line bred for mutant color morphs that have probably never been seen in the wild(snow, hybino, etc.). Is there a term for them? They are definitly different than the "classic" wild phenotype, but they are not considered "hybrids". I understand that most captive bred snakes of the "classic" look are often line-bred as well for traits such as reduced black, saturated colors, or low band count, etc. But there is a difference between this and mutant morphs. The recent comparison between some of the names of the "designer" corn snake morphs and potential future Pyro morphs Terry Dunham is producing stirred my interest in this subject. Should there be "classic" "designer" and "hybrid" labels for snakes?

Greg

Replies (7)

willstill May 01, 2004 01:09 PM

Hello,

"Designer" snakes are a product of captivity, not found in the wild. Typically reptiles are considered designer if they are the product of two or more mutations taken from nature and bred together. For example, albino x axanthic = animals heterozygous for both traits, when those het animals are bred back together they produce a small number of animals that express both traits =snows. Snow corns, balls, kings etc. are not ever found in nature simply because there is far too much chance involved and the necessary genes would never combine.

Designer herps can also be the product of generations of linebreeding to draw out desired traits, for example I have been linebreeding my S. GA eastern kings for a couple of generations, each time selecting desired traits, such as vigor, bright orange color, and wide band width, and pairing up those animals to create others with a similar traits, or an appearance that is a greater variation from the norm. Nature does not select for the same features that we do in captivity, in fact nature usually selects out those animals with the brightest color or other traits that would draw a predator's attention.

About linebreeding, people have a misconception about linebreeding/inbreeding reptiles. We seem to have an anthropomorphic aversion to the whole idea. Now, such an aversion is a good thing when discussing Homo sapiens, because humans seem to be very prone to inbreeding depression. Reptiles however are very resistant to inbreeding depression. They have been around a heck of a lot longer than humans and have had much of their deleterious genetic make-up selected out over the millenia.

In a similar discussion regarding line breeding in odatrid monitors on the monitor forum a couple of years ago, Mr. Frank Retes described that when he was initially developing some of the cal king mutations back in the 70's that are so common today, he inbred some lines for over 8 generations and in the end he had selected for larger, hardier kingsnakes that were far better suited to captivity that the p1 wild stock.

People also don't understand that most of their favorite herp species such as bearded dragons, leopard geckos, spiny tailed monitors, and Rhacodactylid geckos have been inbred for many, many generations. Virtually any animal from Australia, or any other protected locale in the trade has been heavily inbred simply because the founder stock was a very small number of animals. The result has been outstanding captive bred stock that has been selected to thrive in captivity. Of course there are some exceptions to the rule, bug eyed Leucistic Texas rats, Angolan pythons that get cataracts, and eye deformities in some lines of albino boas. However, these traits could have been selected out early in the game by culling and outbreeding when necessary.With careful selection, the potential dangers of linebreeding/inbreeding can be controlled. Without such practices, we would not have any of the exciting color/pattern mutations or rare species in captivity that we are able to enjoy today. My .02.

Will

kingaz May 01, 2004 02:29 PM

np

mariasman May 01, 2004 02:36 PM

n/p

rtdunham May 01, 2004 03:34 PM

will, i posted my response to this thread before reading yours, figured i might as well see whether i was on the right track or not.

looks like we came up with just about the same answers. which means we're BOTH really smart, or.... well, we don't want to consider the other possibility, right?!

i will readily concede you expressed the ideas far better than i. well done!

peace
terry

willstill May 02, 2004 11:56 AM

We're both just very smart(LOL)! Thank's for your kind words. I also think we came to the same conclusions, even though we attacked the question from slightly different angles.

There is a real lack of understanding out there regarding this topic. It makes snicker (then cringe) when someone at a show will marvel at all of the awesome herps that are a direct result of applied linebreeding. But then, with a holier-than-thou, nose in the air attitude, dismiss them as sickly and inferior because of the linebreeding that allowed their production......then walk away with their prized (although heavily inbred) flame tiger crested gecko resting on their shoulder. Take care.

Will

rtdunham May 01, 2004 03:25 PM

Hi Greg,

Good question.

One distinction is between line breeding in pursuit of gradually improving a particular trait, as you mention, for cleaner colors, for example, on the one hand--and color "morphs" or mutations, on the other hand.

Any trait people breed selectively for has to be passed on genetically, but many of these influences are apparently the result of interaction of multiple (unknown numbers of) genes. Gradually, by continuing to select cleaner and cleaner animals, in this example, one moves toward achieving an animal that's extremely clean. But it's a point on a continuum--as is the case with tangerine and tricolor hondurans, to mention an example existing in wild caught animals. And in the process some will be worse than the norm ("culls"?) and others will be better than the norm and retained for subsequent breedings.

On the other hand, the morphs or mutations you're referring to, and that i work with--amelanistics, hypomelanistics, anerythristics, and the combinations of those traits--are simple recessive traits or the combination of two such traits. Any of these may occur in the wild; when they occur in captivity, that probably proves the gene existed in the wild beforehand. ( Just for background info, the first anerythristic honduran was wild caught, for example, as was the first hypoerythristic pyro pyro.) But more importantly, the trait in question--albinism, for example, will be produced in predictable numbers, and always produced from two homozygous parents. You can't take two animals that are the result of line breeding and which show the desired characteristic, and breed them together and predict that ALL the babies will show the particular characteristic.

Maybe that makes the line-bred animals a bigger challenge, one more deserving of praise, i dunno.

I prefer to think of "designer" as an appropriate term for that tinkering in the lab, LOL. Doing so produces something that perhaps doesn't exist in the wild--that's certainly true of hybrids (ignoring for the purposes of these comments the fact that there may have been a handful of wild-occurring hybrids historically: those animals are notable not because they show something routinely happening in the wild but rather because they're so uncommon and exceptional). And it produces something lacking the predictability of the simple recessive morphs. I think in general usage people sometimes use the "designer" term not only for hybrids but also to refer to line-bred animals that haven't been found in the wild but are perceived by some people as improvements on nature--is the 50-50 cal king perhaps an example? Perhaps someone can post some better examples.

Morphs, recessive color mutations, are traits often, and perhaps almost always, existing in the wild, singularly determined by the actions on a single gene pair, and managed in captivity to increase their numbers. That's important: managed in captivity not to gradually change their appearance to something else, but rather to reproduce more of the particular phenotype (appearance). Yes, we can then breed selectively to produce tangerine albinos, and tricolor albinos, and at that point we're combining the two different breeding practices, i suppose!

Crossing two morphs and managing the pairings of the offspring to produce animals that show the effects of both of two recessive morphs may seem like tinkering with the genetic building blocks, and in a way it is. And unlike the "designer" animals which typically produce a wide range of offspring, only a few of which show the characteristics being sought (those points on a continuum again) any of the morphs, bred as homozygous pairs, produce babies precisely like themselves. And double homozygous pairings would produce babies ALL of which show both traits. This difference from the line-bred animals that are the products of managing many, many genes to shift appearance in a desired direction is an important distinction.

At least that's the way the terms seem to me to have been used. Does that lead us to any useful framework for terminology?

peace
terry

chrish May 02, 2004 06:02 AM

I was kind of flamed and reminded that herpeteculture only considers a cross between species as a hybrid.

Technically, that is the biological definition of the word, not just the herpetocultural definition. As many herpers are trained biologists, we tend towards that bias.

I would rather see hybrid reserved for natural hybridization events and the term "mutt" be applied to things like Jungle Corns - .

I still have a question on non-hybrid snakes that are line bred for mutant color morphs that have probably never been seen in the wild(snow, hybino, etc.). Is there a term for them?

I like the term "line" or "phase" for some cases. Will Still's stunning line of south GA kingsnakes are a great example. He (and others) have taken a population with phenotypically pleasing characteristics and line bred it in order to "improve" the appearance of the snake and to produce a true-breeding line.

Once the line has been established (they are true-breeding), then I prefer to call them a "phase".

I don't like seeing "lines" or "phases" named for people however (sorry Will). I prefer to see them named for their appearance or for the geographic which they typify, if one really exists.

Desert Phase Cal Kings or even Okeetee Corns are good examples. Sure there are corns from all over that look like Okeetees, and many corns from Jasper Co. SC don't look like that, but we all know what to expect when we hear "Okeetee corn". The name Okeetee has transcended to simple locality of "presumed" geographic origin.

Should there be "classic" "designer" and "hybrid" labels for snakes?

This is a tough distinction to make. Classic is in the eye of the beholder. What does, for example, a "classic" eastern king look like? Are they the narrow banded northern forms or the big, wide banded southern forms?

Designer is a term I would like to see reserved for "impossible" morphs that were deliberately produced in captivity, i.e. things that couldn't be produced in the wild. So for example, a Jungle Corn or Jurassic Milk (both incredibly stupid names, IMHO) is a snake that can't be produced in the wild and was deliberately produced in captivity so I regard it as a designer snake. In reality, the same could be said for the snow Honduruns. The first two examples are also hybrids, of course.

This topic has come up on these forums repeatedly over the last few years and the only thing that seems consistent is everyone like the terminology they use and don't see why everyone else just doesn't get it! Thus, there will be no resolution.

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Chris Harrison

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