Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi
I just received this little one yesterday and he seem sick. I don't know if its just me being to worry. Can someone help me out? He is only 8-weeks and 3". Do baby make little sounds from there nose?

Charlie
Do his eye's on the pic look ok? Thanks

He either looks sick or waking up, its hard to tell from the picture. You have to monitor his activity. Try soaking him for a few minutes in a warm bath. If he becomes more active and his eyse open up then you know that he is most likely ok. When they are hatchlings they sleep a lot. When my hatchlings sleep and get disturbed their eyes look the same.

Can you describe the sound you hear? Also, do you see any bubbles or mucous coming from his nose, any open-mouthed breathing, runny eyes, anything like that? Also let us know what kind of setup you have, temps, lighting, etc., and someone will be able to help you out. It's a little hard to tell from the pic if something is going on.
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

Hi
I thank you both for helping me out. She has a nice set up hot spot is 100f cool side is 85f. I did gave her a warm soak today and she was lively. After I took her out she had a little bit of bubble that can out of her nose but now I am thinking it was from her being in the water. First day I didn't soak her but she ate some veggies. You say they sleep a lot when they are small? Here are some pic's of her set up. Please let me know if anything looks wrong. I wish I can take her to a vet but I don't have the money now because I am fixing my new house to move in to. I don't know what to do. I don't even know if the baby is sick or not. Sad
The person I bought her from is telling me she will be ok. He told me not to take her to a vet and let her acclamate to her new house and let him know what happens in a few days. I told him I don't want to play with the baby's life if it is sick.

DragonChuck
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.pl?photo=141053
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.pl?photo=141080

Sorry

About the sound, I only heard it maybe a few times. I was like a squeak sound and he open his mouth a little also.

Dragonchuck
She is not doing it when she is asleep.
pic of her sleeping, she is so cute

I'm not a sulcata keeper, but your setup looks OK for a hatchling for now, although of course you will need something bigger before you know it. Air circulation is important, so an open-topped enclosure is good. Make sure it isn't drafty where you keep it, though. I couldn't tell, but a small dish of water should be in there, too, big enough for the tortoise to get into, but not very deep--about 1/4" at this size.

Keep up the soaking daily for now. You don't want the baby to get dehydrated. A bubble from the nose after a bath is normal. The breathing may or may not be normal, it's a little hard to tell. Keep an eye out for any changes, especially bubbles or a runny nose. If she is active and eating, that's a good sign.
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

I wish I can take her to a vet but I don't have the money now because I am fixing my new house to move in to.

umm. not to come across as a troll/flamer or anything, but you shouldn't get a pet that you can't afford to take care of, plain and simple. you have a *responsibility* to your pet the same as though it were your child. do you have children? do you avoid taking them to the doctor because it's financially inconvenient for you (and i'm having my doubts about this part if you're getting a new house)? even if your tort isn't exhibiting much of an indication of illness, you should get a vet check for parasites regardless, as these can really knock out a little one *fast*. if you cannot or will not provide such to your tort, you may as well go ahead and look into donating him to a reptile rescue.

What does hell have to do with my baby sulcata?

I have more then 90 retiles in my collection and they are all in great shape and health and eating, I also work with WC that are great doing fine. I am not new to reptiles maybe tortoises alittle and yes I have to fix my house, I need some were to live and the baby also I'm in the north and living in the street will not be good for me or this little one. I didn't get the sulcata from a pet store I never buy from a pet store, not even my supplys. I got the little one from a breeder that is telling me that she will be fine and to let her acclimate to her new house for a few days.
unchikun have you read all my post? I can afford my hobbie and have love for reptiles and I feed them everyday for some and everyother day for others, I just didn't expect this to happen now when I'm in the process of moving. It does sound messed up but that is life and I am not going to donate her. I paid for her and the food I order, set up, lights,books etc. I don't have kid's and its not the same. If I did have kids and they were sick, I'll take them but thats a different story, I would have health coverage on them. You don't know me and how I am, I love all my reptiles, you don't need to have doubts about my house, I been waiting for this for a very long time. I want to take her to a vet,but just can't do it right now. sad I know and I hate myself for it. I am trying to see if the breeder will give me half the money I paid so I can take the time and get the rest of the money to take her. The vet charges $90 just for office visit.

Dragonchuck

I'm not going to get into this argument, but is your vet a good herp vet? Are there any others in your area equally qualified? $90 for a visit is really high--I'm in CA and I only pay $48, which I thought was about the limit. How much do you pay for fecals?

If you let us know your exact location, maybe someone can direct you to another good herp vet in your area. You really will need to take the baby in for an exam and fecal check, at least.
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

i read your post, yes. i read it all. and regardless of how many pets you have or how well you are educated about them, i nevertheless hold the very strong opinion that it is terribly unfair to purchase pets (or have children, for that matter) when one cannot absolutely be certain than one will be able to pay fir their expenses, including medical. i'm not the only one wh us telling you that you at least need to get your pet to a vet for a fecal examination even if everything else seems kosher.

i'm not trying to be insulting to you or anything of the sort. i just happen to highly respect animals and want the best for them, and i cannot relate to those who want to take financial shortcuts in their care.

unchikun,
I appreciate that you have an opinion on this matter. However, I am a bit insulted. I'm sure others will be as well. Who do you think you are that you can judge me or others that are not in the best financial circumstances at the moment. Do you honestly believe that only the rich should be parents or keep pets, because they are the only people who don't have to worry about their finances. Most people have to live paycheck to paycheck and can't always afford the surprises that life throws at them. I'm sure there have been circumstances where you were short of cash for awhile, did you get rid of everything you own because that would of made you an unfit guardian for your pets or children? I'm sure you didn't you just got through it.

As for the advise on my baby sulcata, I will do the best for her and I'm sure that she will turn out fine. I will take her for a fecal exam very soon.

Thanks again for all of the help from everyone. I appreciate it.

All the best,
Charlie

P.S. I didn't expect this to be an argument or judgements against me. that was not my intention when I posted her pic asking if she looked sick. I just wanted to see if she looked normal.

he/it looks chipper as ever except for the start of pyramiding.
solution = humid hide, 80 to 100 temperature range, good hydration and varied diet. (With a varied herbiverous diet, protein is not a factor)
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Thanks Ed

Charlie

Do you honestly believe that only the rich should be parents or keep pets, because they are the only people who don't have to worry about their finances. Most people have to live paycheck to paycheck and can't always afford the surprises that life throws at them.

don't put words into my mouth, please. i'm saying you have to be "rich" to have kids or have a pet. but i do have a problem with people who put their pets or children at risk because of their financial irresponsibility. if you have 90 reptiles in your "collection" (i find it interesting that they seem to be materials for a "hobby" to you and not "pets", and you can't afford vet bills, why the hell do you buy number 91? i cannot see the logic in this, sorry.

I'm sure there have been circumstances where you were short of cash for awhile, did you get rid of everything you own because that would of made you an unfit guardian for your pets or children?

no, but then again, i hadn't put myself in a spot where i had any expenses i couldn't handle. see, i take into account what i make, and i make my financial decisions accordingly. that's called "not living paycheck to paycheck." it's nice, you should try it sometime (for your pets' sake if nothing else).

"no, but then again, i hadn't put myself in a spot where i had any expenses i couldn't handle. see, i take into account what i make, and i make my financial decisions accordingly. that's called "not living paycheck to paycheck." it's nice, you should try it sometime (for your pets' sake if nothing else)."

My, aren't you a bit self rightous. Do you enjoy tooting your own horn? Maybe you should take that show on the road, you know kind of like Tony Robbins. You might make a lot of money, that way you can be even more fiscally responsible.

"... but i do have a problem with people who put their pets or children at risk because of their financial irresponsibility."

First of all, you don't know me or anything about me so the fact that you call me irresponsible is a bit premature. Not that I have to explain myself to you but for the sake of this argument I will. Under normal circumstances I would have had the money to take my tortoise to the vet. However, being that I am renovating my home, so that my pets and I have a place to live, all of my cash is tied up for about two more months. So please don't assume, as I'm sure you know what happens when people assume, that I went out and bought a big screen tv "you can't go out and buy the $3000 big-screen tv you'd like" instead of taking my animals to the vet.

Now that all of that is said, I do not wish to continue with this argument.It is pointless and futile

All of my animals are healthy and doing fine. I have an appointment to take my tortoise for a fecal exam on saturday and we'll see what happens from there.

Thanks to everyone for all of their help and concern.

Have a great day!
DragonChuck

"My, aren't you a bit self rightous. Do you enjoy tooting your own horn? Maybe you should take that show on the road, you know kind of like Tony Robbins. You might make a lot of money, that way you can be even more fiscally responsible."

i don't call it self righteous to explain to someone that they need to at the very least take into account the cost of a vet check before getting a new animal, especially when one already owns so many. trivializing my argument with attempted sarcasm does nothing for your attempted argument.

"First of all, you don't know me or anything about me so the fact that you call me irresponsible is a bit premature. Not that I have to explain myself to you but for the sake of this argument I will."

i used what i *do* know about you, which was what information you provided to me with your posts: that while going into a situation (renovating a house) that would render you financially unable to take a new pet to the vet, you got the new pet reagardless. i fail to see where you can defend that as not lacking in responsibility.

"Under normal circumstances I would have had the money to take my tortoise to the vet. However, being that I am renovating my home, so that my pets and I have a place to live, all of my cash is tied up for about two more months."

see? you could have waited to ensure that you would have had the money and you would know for sure that you could immediately take your new baby to the vet, but you didn't wait.

"So please don't assume, as I'm sure you know what happens when people assume, that I went out and bought a big screen tv "you can't go out and buy the $3000 big-screen tv you'd like" instead of taking my animals to the vet."

no, you got a new pet while you were renovating your house (which i'm sure cost *more* than the big-screen) instead of waiting until you knew you could afford it. that's the thing i keep coming back to, and that's what you seem to keep diverting this attempted argument away from: that you were irresponsible in not waiting.

"Now that all of that is said, I do not wish to continue with this argument.It is pointless and futile"

you've made no point whatsoever, but fine.

"All of my animals are healthy and doing fine. I have an appointment to take my tortoise for a fecal exam on saturday and we'll see what happens from there."

i *am* very happy to hear that you are going to be able to get her to a vet after all. i hope that she is well and free of parasites.

Most people have to live paycheck to paycheck and can't always afford the surprises that life throws at them. I'm sure there have been circumstances where you were short of cash for awhile, did you get rid of everything you own because that would of made you an unfit guardian for your pets or children? I'm sure you didn't you just got through it.

What you wrote up there is beautiful but it is irrelevant because life did not throw you your current situation as a surprise. I just find it to be irresponsible to purchase a pet and then say that you are lacking the money to take her to the vet for a checkup so soon after she arrives.

But in the words of the Great Gump... Life is like...
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

If you have not had kids or have not calculated the minimum cost of a kid I really don't think you are qualified to make such a judgement because if you have done any of the above you will come to the realization that there is no one on earth who can afford haveing kids if they intend to provide for those kids in the fashion in which they are accustomed to.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

'...nobody can afford having a kid...'

Does that mean,- get the kid / pet first and worry about supplying for it later? Or does it mean, nobody can have a kid / pet and keep the standard of life the same. Meaning,- you might have to make sacrifices when you want to supply for a kid / pet (that would be very true in my experience)?

Get ready to make those sacrifices... in the case of a kid born today.
http://www.babycenter.com/costofchild/costs.jhtml?_requestid=402977
(thought I'd check it out)(I have done it before and came to the conclusion that we will never 'afford' a kid, let alone 2 so you jump into it and deal with it as the situation arrises. Anyone who has the marbles to judge what should or should not be is either lying or has not been there in terms of the reality of the the actual situation.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

and i know that i can afford to pay for whatever needs my tort may or may not have.

i also know that at my current income level i cannot afford children, and i am not married, so, therefore, i don't have kids. that's a kooky situation, yes, not doing something you can't afford to do.

i'm getting the distinct impression that people in this thread are trying to make my statement seem as though i'm coming from a financially elite point of view, which is not the case. i'm fully aware that when one has children, for example, one must realize that one's personal living standards will change. but there's a world of difference, and you cannot deny it, between having kids and knowing that you can't go out and buy the $3000 big-screen tv you'd like, and having kids and not being able to take them to the doctor.

it's simple-- if you can't afford to take a pet to the vet (and you have 90 reptiles in your "collection" already), wow, what a shock-- sounds like someone should be more prepared for the expenses of their "hobby". what happens if more than one gets sick?

90 Reptiles that's from years of collecting and breeding.That's what I do captive breed. I don't do it for the money I do it for the love of Reptiles. Yeah I might sell one or two here and there but that goes right back to them.I didn't say I couldn't afford my pet's you did. I only said I couldn't take my little one to the vet right now. Yeah some times we do get low on cash but we get over it. I haven't had one of my reptile get sick on me for over 18 years of collecting, knock on wood. 90 reptiles and I will keep getting more if I want.

Best

I didn't say I couldn't afford my pet's you did.

You did say you couldn't afford your pet. No one has put words into your mouth. See--> I want to take her to a vet,but just can't do it right now. sad I know and I hate myself for it. That pretty much says it all. Of course you'll get some criticism when you post complaints about an easily avoidable situation that places your tortoise at risk, not to mention the other 90 reptiles you have. If you cannot afford to take your latest reptile to the vet, what if some of the other ones get sick? Also, you leave yourself open for more criticism when you pretend that you were not the one who said something that we can easily trace back to your original post.

Here comes another one

I didn't say I couldn't afford my pet, I said I couldn't afford to take him to a vet now. That pretty much says it all. I have nothing to say to you. I made an appointment with the Vet for Saturday for those who did try to help me and understand were I'm coming from.

Dragonchuck

I didn't say I couldn't afford my pet, I said I couldn't afford to take him to a vet now.

That makes a world of difference. We are supposed to feel sympathy for your situation because you order a new tortoise while you are short the money to take it in to a vet if she arrives sick or even to take her in for an examination. I just don't like that you place yourself in a situation like this and then cry about it in one of your posts. I'm glad that you found a way to take her to the vet after all.

That's great and all but anyone who is expecting to get a new tortoise should be responsible enough to have the money necessary to take it in for a checkup. It should be checked for parasites and anything else out of the ordinary. And we are talking about someone who has over 90 reptiles here. He knew he would be short of funds while getting a new house, so I think that is really selfish to get a new baby tortoise when his money situation is tight and already has 90 reptiles to take care of as it is.

Wow!! Ed, you hit it on the head!
I'm the proud father of 2 girls. Together my wife and I make a fair living. Our #2 was born in Jan. 9 wks after getting out of the hopital, we had to put #1 in the hospital for an illness she may have(90% sure) caught at daycare. Oh, and by the way we pay around $1,100 per month for that daycare service. When you add up the hospital bills for this year they are around $12,000. Lucky for us we have insurance, and we only have to pay about $1,000. I know that some feal you should have kids or pets until you can afourd them. This logic sounds good until Murphies Law comes into play.
Having said the above I do believe that when considering the cost of buying a pet, one should also inclued the cost of a vet visit.

.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Hey Ed was it W.C. Fields who said, " I don't like babies -- They're noisey and leak at both ends."??

I know what you are saying bud.

Dragonchuck

God bless them all.

Ha...we were one of those couples who figured we'd wait until we could afford kids--never happened, so we had them anyway, lol. Hospital costs for the first delivery: $10,000 (C-section, had insurance). Husband laid off for 6 months one year later, didn't expect that! Hospital costs for second delivery: $7,000 (complications due to big-headed kid, had insurance). Other unexpected expenses: stitches, fractured skull/concussion, fractured collarbone, a stay-at-home mom, and private school (eek, definitely not anticipated). We are somehow getting by just fine, despite getting a good dose of the unexpected. Things do tend to work out, and of course it helps that we are too tired to do anything fun like going out by ourselves!

BTW, we were out looking at houses/land this weekend, and it actually looks as though we will be able to realize our dream of having about an acre of land in a very desireable community (no easy task, this is California, very $$$$). We won't be able to be too picky, and we'll have to wait another year or two, but it looks doable. That means spacious, year-round accomodations for the torts, lucky guys!
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

"Only 10 grand," lol. Never in my wildest dreams did I think I would end up with a C-section, but there you go. The second time, I stupidly decided to be tough and not go for another CS, which I deeply regretted later. Recovery was much longer than with the surgery. The kid still has a head like a bowling ball (hope that means he's Ivy League material, hahaha).

I guess my point is, you're prepared for as much as you can be, but things don't always work as expected.
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

I want to take her to a vet,but just can't do it right now.

It bothers me that you did not take into consideration the vet expenses for your new tortoise. You obviously knew that you were going to buy/fix a new house, so I do not understand why you would not just wait a bit longer to get a new tortoise when you can have the extra funds for emergencies and exams. You already have 90 reptiles, which had to have given you an indication of what their expenses would be before you made the decision to order a new baby tortoise. It just makes me a little angry when I read that someone complains that they cannot provide for their new pet and writes about how expensive the vet visit will be as though they had no idea what they were getting into. It's not as if you were lonely and needed a new pet right when your money was getting tight... YOU HAVE 90 ALREADY!!!

Yep, 90 of them from Breeding the ones I have and I love them all.

Most of us are here to learn and to help other tortoises whose keepers are trying to learn.
While I agree with a lot of arguments in this thread, as they exactly verbalized my own thoughts, I think it is important to remember,- even if we get upset at times, that this and many other forums of that kind are primarily there to improve the lives of our tortoises.
Many experienced keepers here are spending a lot of time answering questions that they have already answered a lot of times before. And this is, because they want to make a difference for the specific tortoise in trouble. If we start to attack members that look for help and advice, maybe because they cannot afford a vet or do not have access to a good herp vet fast enough, we might discourage people, who have problems with their animals from posting here.
And while no forum can replace a vet, I am sure, that many tortoises have been helped, because somebody on this forum took the time to share his / her experience. Even if the answer was: This is a serious situation,- you need a vet ASAP.
Many people buy pets that they can afford to buy, but they cannot deal with vet bills or supplies that are more expensive than expected. I would personally call this irresponsible.
But I believe, that the mission of this forum is to help. And I believe, that we should not attack members in the way it has been done in this thread, because the result will be, that we won't hear about torts that are in trouble but can't get to the vet anymore.

Gaby

HELLO?????
GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have got one tort, and I have many other pets, and 3 children...When my tort got sick, my car also decided to get sick and my dog decided to eat a porcupine!! You can not plan for illnesses or breakdowns.. You have just got to roll with it...Don't sweat the small stuff or PEOPLE, just do the best you can!!! I live paycheck to paycheck, not by choice, but because I refuse to wait till I can "AFFORD" anything to have anything or to enjoy life!!!...
I enjoy my life, GET ONE>>>>
Have a NICE DAY!!!!!! shawne1_

We are not talking about the average pet owner. This person has 90 reptiles. He posts that he feels bad that he cannot take his new tortoise baby to the vet because of having money problems associated with fixing his new house. I criticized him for not waiting until he was through his present financial trouble before ordering another baby reptile. I just find it to be very selfish of someone to purchase pet #91 while realizing that they cannot afford to take it to a vet, which is what he posted about. I was hoping that a little criticism would make him stop and think, and perhaps slow down on adding to his collection. I live paycheck to paycheck and everyone I know lives paycheck to paycheck, but we would never say something as immature as I refuse to wait till I can "AFFORD" anything to have anything or to enjoy life!!! when we are talking about living creatures and the financial ability to take them to a vet if need be, which was the case in his post.

I'll keep getting what I want. And with this baby it makes 90 the others I have are geckos I bred and Uromastys. So keep talking what you want because you are no one to me. I am sorry I even post in this forum for help. I mean there are some great people in here that help me out and still do and I thank them a lot from the bottom of my heart.

So step off

AKA DragonChuck
90 can't wait to have 100
This will be my last post for help.

90 can't wait to have 100

Wow, what a surprise. I would have never figured you to be the type who wants to show off his large reptile collection. You posted that you could not take care of your latest reptile, so I thought it would be helpful to the ones you have that you maybe think about them before adding to an already out of hand collection.

You absolutely have a point. Leaving the original poster out of it (he is, after all, taking his new tort to the vet), and bearing in mind that the ultimate goal of most/all of the posters here is to see that tortoises are well and properly taken care of--how many of us have seen posts or talked to people who have just gotten a new tortoise/snake/lizard/whatever that is now obviously ill, and the first thing we hear is, "I can't afford a vet, how can I cure it?" Raise your hands! We all know that at times a new herp is going to need a vet visit, and a new tortoise especially should see a vet, whether or not it shows signs of illness. Of course it's unreasonable to expect everybody to have money stashed away to pay for large and unexpected vet bills, but really, a vet check for a new tortoise isn't something unexpected. It's something I take into consideration, and then I also assume there'll be extra costs for worming, additional fecal checks, etc. None of these expenses should be considered a surprise, but rather the cost of the hobby. There's no harm in waiting a bit longer if you can't afford the basic costs of owning any pet, or anything else for that matter.

It all goes along with doing research before you buy, educating yourself, and preventing abuse and neglect. None of us wants to see tortoises suffer, and we don't want to see them ending up in rescues because people aren't prepared to care for them properly. That's what it all boils down to.
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

I just thought that it might help if someone pointed this out to Dragonchuck, so that maybe in the future he will be more likely to be prepared before he gets a new pet. I am glad that he found a way to come up with the money to take her to see a vet, but I think that is only because of the critism he got for his initial post.

i'm glad that i'm not the only person who feels this way. it wasn't my intention to come across like i was attacking the guy or trying to insult him or anything; i was just trying to give some criticism that would hopefully make him *think* in the future. of course you can't plan for each and every financial problem life might throw your way, but at they very least one can take certain things for granted and plan accordinly and responsibly.

Agreed 100% about THINGS. But not LIVING THINGS. Ya can't say oh screw it let it die because I felt like I wanted it and can't find the money to get it the help it needs. You do have to take a that into account a little at least if we are talking about a living creature.

I don't mean you need to have thousands tucked away in case your animal gets sick but at least be able to say "can I afford to put a vet bill on plastic and worry about paying it off later if a Murphy throws me a curve."

So I guess that would be called "Moderate" not sweating the small stuff.