Reptile & Amphibian Forums

here latley in the classifieds i have seen several ads for cricket free babies. I just dont get it.. why cut out an essencial part of there diet and behavior?

some people would rather feed them worms than crickets becuase crickets can carry disease alot easier

at all, and either serve pellets or suppliment powders that provide the necessary protein.

Personally I can't imagine my beardie having nearly as much fun chasing down a pellet or a turnip leaf dusted with suppliments as she does with crickets, but to each his/her own.

At least part of this is probably directed towards me, so here's my answer. A lot of people hate crickets. This gives them an option because the dragons are already started on other things, like repcal pellet, salad, and worms. Crickets are not a necessity as long as you substitute this part of the diet with other things. As for the people who feed no live prey, I don't think there are very many of them, but repcal, and from what I understand the new trex formulas, are formulated to be a complete diet, they don't need anything else. After carefully watching how other peoples dragons responded to this new diet I decided to try it on my last 2 clutches. I've fed repcal, salad, and worms and am very pleased with the results so far. It has made far less work for me without compromising my babies health in any way. I've also noticed that they are less agressive towards each other on this diet. I think this is because food that they recognize is always available. I did end up with some nips, but they were mainly due to a poor cage design that I was trying out at the same time. Anyway, that's my answer. Hope it doesn't start one of the forum wars.

Sean
Heart Mountain Herps

waxworms? mealworms? earthworms?.....
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**KILL 'EM WITH KINDNESS**

Baby superworms & silkworms mainly. Mealworms have too hard of a shell that's hard to digest. Waxworms are nice and soft, but it's kind of like feeding them candy bars, they're really high in fat. Earthworms is a good question, I don't feed them because the basic question of whether or not they are good for bd's has never been answered. Nutritionally they look fine, but there have been reports that they harbor parasites badly so I've never used them.

Sean
Heart Mountain Herps

I use pellets and t-rex because it is a healthy diet, a cleaner diet, it does not smell or escape and chirp in my bedroom all night and it is CHEAPER!!! WAY WAY CHEAPER. last season befor I switched to pellets and powder, I was going through 28,000 crix, 2,000 supers, 1000 roaches and a lot of salad every week. I still give all the live food but instead of a beardie eating 30-50+ crix a day, he gets 5-10. If a cricket shipment is lost or delayed, my BDs don't have to starve either. It is a lot more convenient.

From another point of view (Lisa, you can confirm this), some people find it inconvenient to get to a pet store and buy crix regularly or they find it gross and disgusting to handle bugs. They would never consider buying a pet that ate any live thing. It allows those folks to have a BD and not have the animal suffer from malnutrition. So if a breeder raises the BD for 6-8 weeks that way, the new owner has a choice of what to feed. More sales to people who would not otherwise opt for a BD.

some of last seasons babies

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Bennett

Home Of The Florida Orange
www.beardiedragon.com

but dosent that cut out them hunting anything for food, i think that in a captive enviroment, then need to be excersized somewhat, and what better way than for them to have to work a little for the food. and for people that dont like animals that eat life food or bugs, then maybe beardeds are not the pet for them to have.

I was not trying to point anyone out in my first post, just wanting to get a general idea why this was being done. I do understand the cost factor, but to me having crickets is just part of having a lizard that thrives on insects.

It's all a matter of perspective. Look at dogs and cats. They are meat eaters, they are hunters. We feed them pellets and food from cans. not much of a hunt there either. Becoming a domesticated animal has its pitfalls. Obesity in dogs and cats has become a problem.

Right or wrong, good or bad, those are the reasons it is being done. Like I said, I have not cut out bugs, far from it. I have cut way back though.
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Bennett

Home Of The Florida Orange
www.beardiedragon.com

some people find it inconvenient to get to a pet store and buy crix regularly or they find it gross and disgusting to handle bugs. They would never consider buying a pet that ate any live thing. It allows those folks to have a BD and not have the animal suffer from malnutrition. So if a breeder raises the BD for 6-8 weeks that way, the new owner has a choice of what to feed. More sales to people who would not otherwise opt for a BD.

My opinion on the above statement is that if one thinks bugs are disgusting or two inconvenient to buy then they should buy a guinea pig, ferret, hamster. Or adopt a cat or dog. I am not saying that dragons cant be raised on just salad and pellets. The staple for my dragons is a large salad with 4-8 different ingredients every week and several times a week I feed insects. Roaches are the main insect I feed, with superworms, crickets, waxworms, etc being fed as treats once in awhile. The dragons LOVE insect time and go nuts for it. I got over my yuck factor with roaches (which wasnt easy) and I believe if a person truly cares they could get over their yuck factor of at least one species of insect out of the many available on the market today. Like I said, I know many people raise their dragons without live prey (for different reasons other then the 2 reasons stated above) and their dragons are fine. I am not dogging any of you, so please do not take it that way!

I know in your case beardiedragon, you switched their diet because of expense in breeding and that is understandable. If it works for you and your dragons are healthy and happy then that is all that matters. I believe you do still feed live insects just not in the quantities you were feeding before, right? I think it is you who has all those neat pics of deathheads eating a chicken bone? But to market bd babies fed non live food to people who would have turned the other way had they been fed insects is not a good idea in my opinion. I am not sure these are the people that can accept the dragon for what it is (an exotic pet) and give it the care he/she deserves and NEEDS.

Just my opinion though

As to the "Marketing of BD's and no live food"... Nobody ever said we do not feed any live foods. I myself breed my own mini mealworms, silkworms and superworms. People who buy our dragons often times do introduce crickets to them. It is far easier to get a BD to eat crickets than it is to get a BD off crickets. We simply make this easier and give the new owner a choice on how to raise the new dragon and what foods to feed.

Someone on here posted a while back saying cricket free leads to small "midget" Beardies and that we are starving them. This is also not true. I have babies here that have just turned 5 weeks old today and are averaging 7 - 8 inches and over 12 grams in weight.

Since going cricket free I have found many things to support it. Ofcourse some "die hard" keepers who stick with the old tried and true methods would argue most of these points, but until someone can PROVE to me that I am harming my dragons in any way, I will stick with what works for me and my dragons.

My 2 cents
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
LIVE hatchling web cam 8 - 8 EST
www.beginnersbasics.com

How many times have you seen people on here posting about their dragons and that they will only eat crix and that they won't touch their salads? TONS of times.

Think of this... a baby BD that will eat salads from day 2 after hatching... makes life a heck of a lot easier doesn't it? It also makes it a lot easier to make sure your BD is actually getting EVERYTHING it needs to grow and thrive!

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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
LIVE hatchling web cam 8 - 8 EST
www.beginnersbasics.com

several posts from people with BDs of ripe old ages upwards of 8 years have attributed their longevity to a diet of salad and the lack of animal protien!
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Bennett

Home Of The Florida Orange
www.beardiedragon.com

Very good points. Its not that I disagree totally. I just dont agree with doing it for marketing reasons or convenience!

You are right! You should stick with what works for you! I am not arguing that. I just dont agree with making the dragons insect free for the convenience of the possible new owner! How dedicated are these people really going to be if you have to change the dragons diet to market to them? Bearded dragons are wonderful pets but they are not the cheapest to care for nor the easiest! With the housing, heating, uvb/uva lighting, supplements, food, vet care and so on. Its scary to think what else will need to be adjusted regarding the dragons care, in order to compete with the numerous breeders and make a sale.

>>You are right! You should stick with what works for you! I am not arguing that. I just dont agree with making the dragons insect free for the convenience of the possible new owner!

But we are NOT making them insect free. I feel like your missing the point here. We are providing insects, just not crickets.

Silkworms for instance are quite possibly the worlds most perfect insect (food) for dragons
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
LIVE hatchling web cam 8 - 8 EST
www.beginnersbasics.com

I have owned and bred dragons for years.....

My 6 year old daughter developed such a severe phobia of crickets that I had to adjust or just "give up" my beardies. She would actually strip down naked, run around the house screaming that crickets were all over her, when indeed.. nothing was on her. She would wake up several times during the night, screaming about crickets being on her and in her bed.

Mealworms, silkies, etc she actually helps with. No fear and happy, healthy dragons.
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
LIVE hatchling web cam 8 - 8 EST
www.beginnersbasics.com

Sorry to hear about your daughters phobia. I can definitely understand seeing as I am extremely afraid of spiders but I am slowly trying to overcome it. Maybe when your daughter becomes older she can overcome her fear w/ crickets.

I hate crickets, I used to like the sound of chickets chirping in the backyard on summer nights, now it drives me insane. I hate the smell, their icky soft poos, the fact when they jump loss from my hand or their cage, they instantly vanish into fat air (doesn't help that the tiles are splotted in multi colours, mostly browns, greys, black, with a smattering of actual colour, perfect camoflage for a cricket, unless it moves), the pain of catching them, dusting then hand feeding them so they don't get lose in the cage before my dragon eats them (the new cage has plenty of hiding spots and cracks were they could get out). Or spending time crimping their legs so they can't jump out of the ceramic container....the reasons I hate them goes on and on. I certainly don't fear crickets, don't fear any insects (well except for bees, hornets and wasps, but it's a controllable fear).

Silkworms on the other hand, are so user friendly, they will practically feed themselves to your bearded dragon. They are more filling, more water content, mmore protien, more calcium, don't smell (well, maybe like mulched mulberry leaves which to me, is much much more pleasant than crickets). Silkworms don't jump, won't snack on your dragon if left over night in it's cage, won't try and escape if you drop them on the floor, heck it probably won't be more than a few inches away if you leave it there over night (I suppose it can be messy, if you step on it before finding it). They dont' disappear completely into the pattern of my tile floor..though pretty close LOL...I have almost stepped on silkworms that managed to crawl up the temp probe wire and onto the floor (the probe wire was quite long, the worm just climbed up it out of the container and to the floor).

I haven't used superworms, to me they are just mealworms, only bigger and possess the same tough chitin. Also, I would have to order them myself to get any, none of the petstores near me carry them, and even then, their worms just don't look healthy.

Ok, back on topic. Cricket free dragons is different from prey-free dragons. Though I have yet to have any success getting my dragon to eat pellets (haven't even succeeded in her getting to eat T-Rex dusted salads, though she eats the salad plain, most of the time), I certainly like the fact my dragon is eager to eat silkworms, though I think she gets much more excited with crickets as they move much more than silkworms.

I would love to be able to feed my dragon pellets, it would be so handy when I want to go away for a weekend. Just leave a dish full of pellets, some water and she will be fine for a weekend. (wouldn't leave her longer than that, because of the mess she could make if nobody is there to clean out her poo). Or even if I have somebody clean up after her, and feed her, must easier to get them to pour a tablespoon or whatever of pellets, soaked in water or juice once a day, than a couple dozen crickets.

Though I don't think any dragon should be 100% insect free, but feeding proper diets can happen with a blend of properly designed pelleted foods for bearded dragons, the t-rex powders, other insect foods (silkworks, roaches etc) and of course, proper greens. Nothing is 100% perfect but the more variety, the better, mixed in with balanced foods. Sure cats and dogs get premade food, whether dry or moist, but alot of people are getting into making their own dog/cat food, using cooked chicken, etc. You can get recipies for home made dog/cat food online fairly easily. It's all really a matter of personal taste, what the creature likes, money and availability in each bearded dragon owner. With the diets out there now for dragons i do't think there is any real wrong way to feed a dragon. Sure, hunting crickets does give dragons exercise, but taking it out of it's cage and lettting 'run' in the living room or bathroom once or twice a day, certainly will ensure it doesn't get obese. A large cage with plenty of room to climb, jump, run around helps as well. My girl is often stomping about her cage, jumping on her log, log to the screen, from rock to rock, even one time, she tried to jump onto the florescent light fixture, but missed it completely....fortunatley she hasn't done this again, as it would be a pain putting a wire cage around it.

Ok, I will stop typing now...

I am not missing the point! The statment said:

"some people find it inconvenient to get to a pet store and buy crix regularly or they find it gross and disgusting to handle bugs. They would never consider buying a pet that ate any live thing"

In my opinion those people should not buy a omnivorous reptile! Why you are taking it so personally I have no clue. I never said you did or didnt feed live prey! Beardiedragon made the statement but he still feeds insects just not as much as he used to.

Its the marketing factor I dont agree with. Making things easier and more convenient. In the end it will be the dragons that suffer. But that is no real surprise seeing as almost everything we domesticate ends up overpopulated as a species, with more and more health problems and less and less quality of care. Do I think this applies to you or the other bd forum members! NO! We are all here for the same reason, to learn, help others learn and to better the care for our dragons. But unfortunately the world isnt full of pet owners like us! THAT IS THE PROBLEM. You dont want to market to those people, trust me.

I see your point about the way that statement was written. It didn't sound good that way and probably did come across wrong.

Now, as to me taking offense and taking it personally, maybe because when I first went cricket free I got hammered every time I showed up here on the forum. Whenever I see anyone saying things such as "insect free" etc, I get personally involved. Bad habit of mine and VERY hard to break at times.

Fact is though, I DO market mine as cricket free (Not insect free) as this does open up the wonderful world of BD's to other Moms and Dads that may also have a child at home with such a phobia as mine.
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Lisa
Cricket free babies!
LIVE hatchling web cam 8 - 8 EST
www.beginnersbasics.com

Sounds to me we are on the same side. Cricket free and insect free are completely different Mine are cricket free (well last time they had any was 8 months ago and then it was only for a treat).

Right or wrong you can't change it. You wanted to know why so...

yes I said insect free and here is the point. pet stores are in business to make money as is anyone in the "full time" reptile business. I dont know if you realize this but a lot of the people in the business, know very little about what they sell. (another reason people should buy direct from breeders.) there are people who will tell the customer whatever they need to hear to make a sale. I actually heard a salesman tell a customer that the baby sulcota they thought was so cute would get to be about a foot long and 10-15 lbs., I heard a salesman tell a customer that the baby Ig the child wanted could live in a 20 gallon tank and another person told my son that the rhino Ig he was looking at ate mice and rats. So if a salesman wants to sell a BD to someone who wants a vegitarian lizard but does not want a 6 foot green Ig, this is their option. Right or wrong, good or bad, it is a pellet and dusted salad diet or death by malnutrition. And BTW there are people who raise BDs INSECT FREE with proper suplimentation that live long healthy and happy lives.
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Bennett

Home Of The Florida Orange
www.beardiedragon.com

I didnt want to know why! Someone else asked.

I am fully aware of the realities of pet stores. I worked at one a few years back. I didnt last long obviously because I couldnt see eye to eye with their reptile/animal care or lack of nor their business practices. Although not ALL pet stores are like this.

Also I do know that there are people who raise their dragons without insects. I already stated this in a previous post. Its not so much the act of not feeding them insects, it is the why? To put them on a pellet diet because its just convenient is wrong in my opinion! If they want convenient let them have the ultimate convenience! Not to have any pets at all! That way they dont have to worry about the costs, space, housing, feeding, time consumed, vacations, blah blah blah!

Please dont take me wrong. I am not saying that pelleted diets with supplements are not enough to keep bds healthy nor am I saying they are enough. I have not looked into these diets in great detail as I have no intentions of feeding them to my dragons as this time.

All I know is mine love insects. They love catching them, they love eating them and they seem happiest on days when I am feeding them insects. I wouldnt take this away from them because it might save me time, a little money (I dont breed so tons of eating machines isnt a problem on my end), from having to touch live insects, etc etc. You see what I am saying? I am sure there are tons of valid reasons for people to cut out insects, I cant think of any, but I am sure there are some and they are valid to them. But to cut out insects as part of their diet because it is convenient is wrong in my opinion. To market the bds that way in order to sell them to these people searching for convenience is wrong too. But you are right. It is going to happen whether I think it is wrong or right! I was just stating my opinion

Throughout history, each labor saving invention was met with warnings and ridicule. To say that is is wrong to make animal care more convenient so that we may spend more time enjoying them is a questionable premise at best. What about salad chopping? I use one of those automatic salad choppers instead of terious chopping greens, sometimes; is that wrong?
I think attaching a moral component like right or wrong does a disservice to the whole lizard community. What is important, IMHO, is the health and life if the dragon. I suggest that you find a breeder of traditional cricket fed dragons, and a cricket free breeder. Weigh their respective dragons at a month, six months, and finally weigh them and vet them at a year and see if there are any measurable differences. Do they have fun getting and killing their crickets? Who knows? Perhaps they ultimately have just as much 'fun' with the extra attention they get from their owners who have extra time because of the cricket free diet. As there are no registered lizard psychiatrists, it is hard to really make an informed judgment on their reptile mental health, but surely more time with their ownders counts for something.
I am not taking a stand one way or the other on crickets per se, but I am saying that the words 'right' and 'wrong' are inappropriate and inflammatory.

And that is your opinion! If you think I am doing the herp community a disservice because I feel changing their diet for human benefit is wrong, then that is your opinion. As for chopping greens, my spouse and I chop by hand and it takes us about an hour to two hours each week. Not really seeing what this has to do with anything?

Dragons are considered omnivorous therefor their diet should consist of both plant and animal/insect foods. As for not feeding crickets because it allows you more quality time to spend with them? So feeding time isnt quality time? I think my dragons would have a different opinion Feeding time isnt the only time I spend with them but it seems to be one of the times they enjoy most! Also how many people are really going to spend that time they saved not feeding crickets or chopping greens by hand with their lizards? Instead they will watch their favorite show, talk on the phone, play on the computer, go shopping, spend time with human family, and the list goes on.

Obviously you didnt think this conversation was too ridiculous as you too replied. What you seem to forget is that we all are entitled to our own opinions and have a right to express them. Why does it always have to turn into a forum war? BTW I dont feel I am doing the lizard community a disservice. Thanks, LM

One last thing. So this doesnt escalate anymore I will drop the subject. I am pretty sure I added my 2 cents enough All that matters is that each persons dragon is HEALTHY and HAPPY. If your dragon(s) is both healthy and happy on the diet you are feeding than that is great! Do what works for you! Sorry for causing any issues. Lindsay

That was the point I just made, LOL.

Same point I was trying to make several posts ago! I just added my opinion on the other statements as well. Unfortunately people were only seeing my opinion! I think the conversation has well been covered. Or at least by me anyways. Will be interesting to see others opinions as long as it doesnt turn into a WAR! I hate that.

You bring up a very valid point lucille...do the BD's really "love" chasing the insects, or are they simply reacting to a stimulus directed by instinct. To say they love to hunt is to say that they get a "euphoric" feeling form it, a sense of satisfaction from it. I don't thin that is the case, I just think the the movement of the insects makes them react...it is just instinct. If the stimulus in not there do they have this sense of missing it? I doubt it, but that is just my opinion. To think that you BD will be bummed out by not getting insects or that you are depriving them of something they "love" is anthropomorphizing. When deling with reptiles, to anthropomorphize is a foolish path to travel , as it will lead you further away from really understanding your captives.

>>Throughout history, each labor saving invention was met with warnings and ridicule. To say that is is wrong to make animal care more convenient so that we may spend more time enjoying them is a questionable premise at best. What about salad chopping? I use one of those automatic salad choppers instead of terious chopping greens, sometimes; is that wrong?
>>I think attaching a moral component like right or wrong does a disservice to the whole lizard community. What is important, IMHO, is the health and life if the dragon. I suggest that you find a breeder of traditional cricket fed dragons, and a cricket free breeder. Weigh their respective dragons at a month, six months, and finally weigh them and vet them at a year and see if there are any measurable differences. Do they have fun getting and killing their crickets? Who knows? Perhaps they ultimately have just as much 'fun' with the extra attention they get from their owners who have extra time because of the cricket free diet. As there are no registered lizard psychiatrists, it is hard to really make an informed judgment on their reptile mental health, but surely more time with their ownders counts for something.
>>I am not taking a stand one way or the other on crickets per se, but I am saying that the words 'right' and 'wrong' are inappropriate and inflammatory.

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Bill DiFabio
Garden State Herpetoculture...website to follow...
Email Me
"The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense,
not between right and wrong." - Carl Jung

claws in anticipation of a cricket drop, to be sure.

On the other hand, *I* enjoy watching mine get into the chase. I feel it's about as close to natural behavior as I'll see (OK, basking is natural behavior, but it's not exactly exciting to watch) in my home, in a glass enclosure. I feed mine supers too, but watching her chase crix around is the most entertaining.

Just wanted to share this with you as food for thought.

The first reptile I ever got was an 8 foot columbian redtail as a birthday present for my wife. Neither of us had ever owned a snake before because we did not want to deal with the thought of feeding live food. The breeder I got her from told me she ate cornish hens from the grocery store about once a month or so.

fast forward a few years... My first BD was to be a pet for my son. The thought of reaching into a deli cup of worms was not thrilling to my wife or to me(we used tweezers). Handling those crickets and having them jump out at me was not a pleasent thought. I did not want an Ig in the house so if it was a BD my son wanted, we had to deal with it.

fast forward a few more years... I now feed a couple dozen snakes every week so I learned to deal with rats and to kill them. I have over 100 lizards (not counting babies) to feed daily. I have adapted. Sometimes it takes a little getting used to in order to be willing to make the initial sacrifice. It's like easing into the shallow end of a pool instead of jumping in the deep end.

sorry it was a long story, hope it filled in a few gaps...
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Bennett

Home Of The Florida Orange
www.beardiedragon.com