Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Albino Burm Python-$169
Albino Corn-$50
Snow Corn-$40

Piebald Ball P-$8500 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is up with these high morph prices compared to other snakes? Other snakes' morphs are far less expensive. When will these ridiculous and un-payable prices ever go down so they are buyable? When their prices be decreased to the point where its no big deal? A rare quality albino boa constrictor is also no where near a ball p morph

Don't hold your breath - it'll be a while - probably never. To some they are unbuyable to others they are a investment. If you are looking to compare and wait for the price of a pied to be that of a albino burmese or a corn - it will never happen. Just my .02
BT

Albino Burm Python - first captive hatched 1986, average clutch 30?
Albino Corn - first captive hatched 1959 - it's possible to get a 20 egg first clutch and a 10 egg 2nd clutch each year from a corn.
Snow Corn - first produced "1980ish"
Albino Boa - first produced 1992 - average clutch 15 - 20?
Piebald Ball Python - first captive hatched 1997, average clutch 6?

It will just take a while but eventually they will be more reasonable, probably not ever as reasonable as a corn snake though. Sure, some ball morphs are over priced but those high prices will spur on the work to produce more of them.

.

....also, a female ball python will not normally be in here prime with respect to reproductive potential until after 3 or 4 years of age..... even a clutch of 6 is abnormal until the female is older.

Dont hold your breath, there are plenty more morphs to come that will keep prices high. Also Ball Pythons have smaller clutches, a Boa can have a ton of albino babies. Its all supply and demand, you cant find an albino ball in a regular petstore but you can find albino corns n burms. Balls morphs are just harder to come by so prices can be high.

>>Dont hold your breath, there are plenty more morphs to come that will keep prices high. Also Ball Pythons have smaller clutches, a Boa can have a ton of albino babies. Its all supply and demand, you cant find an albino ball in a regular petstore but you can find albino corns n burms. Balls morphs are just harder to come by so prices can be high.

Actually the petshop by my house has an albino ball. "Only" $4000, lol.
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Jeff H.
http://www.jandsherps.com
http://www.pareptile.org

Maybe I'm speaking out of line, but I really hope that they even go higher. This way they have more "value" not just to you, but in everyone’s eyes. Balls, from what I understand take longer to reproduce than other snakes. It's like going to the mall and being able to buy gap jeans, or being able to afford a pair of Dolce and Gabbana, Armani, or Diesel ones; just to name a few.
If the prices stay up, the value, especially if you can acquire one, is much higher. Another example would be a Rolex or a Citizen. The Rolex has more sentimental value and class in the consumer’s eyes, even though they are both reliable in telling time. This is how I see the ball python should be; this is what differentiates this snake from all the other pet snakes. For the average person, go with a normal, for someone who wants to make an investment or have a unique pet that has special value go with a morph. I honestly hope that the prices stay up and even go up, if it's possible. For those people who can afford them, or don't mind committing to producing their own morph, more power to you.

P.S. these are obviously my views, don't meen to upset anyone.
Dave.

Alot of people post on here complaining about high dollar morphs.so let me try to covor most of the replys. Besides the most obvious and most common answer SUPPLY AND DEMAND.
There is also reasons why supply and demand are so high for bps. Lets compare BP's with cornsnakes. One female corn snake can have up to 20-30 eggs. BP's some of the biggest clutches rarely see double digits let alone 20. What does this mean well if you get hets to start a project a 50% ratio is good when you get 10 out of 20 in corns. But 3 out of 6 or 2 out of 4 in BP's well your looking at rarity. Even if you get actual homozygous animals you only get 6 of a morph wich is still less than the 1o morphs from corn snake hets.
Now lets compare it to other things. Why do some comics worth more than others..rarity. Any collector item is judged on rarity and originality. Same with reptiles..sort of I know its a stretch.
Or how about cars why is a lamborgini worth so much or a hummer. Honestly they dont cost much more to make...not three digit figures more anyways. Or Why does a Tommy Hilfiger shirt go for so much more than my wal mart T- shirt..its just a name right.
Well all these things are based on what people are willing to pay for the items and those people are willing to pay more for a collectible or investment.
Why would someone spend 7,000 dollars on an animal..well to be really superfical most would just so they can sell their babies for the same price. Two piebalds..14,000 Six piebald babies 42,000 dollars.
Well I hope a covered alot...help me out guys with anything I left out.
By the way I dont have high dollar morphs or much money to go out a buy some..although made my first investment with a pastel and I still feel this way.
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

The way I see it, it is mostly just supply and demand...pieds are cool looking, but since ball pythons don't produce alot of offspring, it's hard to get a pied. Hence breeders can mark whatever price they want and since alot of people want them, for whatever reason, they are willing to fork out huge amounts of money.

Personally, I feel the best way to bring down the price is to either flood the market (not likely giving the rate python's reproduce) or 95% of the people or more, who want pieds, refuse to buy them at current prices. Again, this isn't likely to happen either. This goes for any other morph as well. I find the prices of ball python morphs, many of which I can't really tell apart from a normal, even if I have the pictures side by side (only real difference I see is darkness/lightness of body color, different tint to it (ie more yellow, more black) and pattern variation), rather rediculous so have looked to other smaller python/boa speices to be my second snake. I am just not willing to pay that much for a snake, when I can instead by a car or put a nice down payment on a house instead.

When will the same questions ceased to be asked over and over and over and over and over again in these forums?

Supply in demand. You don't like what's for dinner? Cook it yourself. Don't be an armchair breeder. You don't like the price? Breed them yourself and DO something about it. Telling people what to sell the product that THEY invested in and work for is nothing short of silly.

I totally agree.... this question comes up way too often.

They were $25K a couple of years ago, around $15K a year or two ago, and now, you are complaining about $8.5K?

How would you feel if you paid $25K for one a couple of years ago, and now they were just $8.5K? Would you still think the prices hadn't come down?

A reduction in price of $16.5K on an item that cost $25K a few years ago seems like a pretty good price drop to me! Imagine if that happened to car prices? Would anyone here want a nice new sports car (say, a new Nissan 350Z) for $8.5K?

Rodney

Could not have said it better myself. You are 100% right. And this coming from a guy who is dying to get a Piebald. I have been collecting Balls for 1 1/2 years now and have seen a small drop in Piebald prices, but i think its still pretty fair. Its got a lot to do with demand, they are in demand because of their look. So far does not seem like they mix with other morphs, yet people want them. I am sure they are wanted for breeders to try and be the 1st to mix that Piebald with another morph. Anyways, good luck on seeing them at $2000 any time soon... John

Just wait a season or two....you'll see some "mixes" with other morphs!!!

Here are some possibilities:

axanthic pied
albino pied
spider pied
mojave pied
Genetic Stripe Pied
Platnium pied
pinstripe pied
pastel pied
super pastel pied
and on and on

Tons of options......!

Let the fun begin

Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles

Yes, it looks good on paper, but like everyone knows, what is on paper does not mean nature will follow. I have heard that certian morphs do not mix with each other if they come from different strains. So what makes everyone so sure Piebalds will mix with all that you list.

I think its a wish list so far. If some of it comes true, great, there will be some really wild looking Balls. But that's part of the fun(besides making tons of money) the hopes of making something new.

I Do hope too, so lets keep our fingers crossed and see what comes out the next few years.

I am not knocking your wish list, but as of right now, its all a dream(unless someone out there already got a few dreams to come true)... John

It will be fun to watch others and try on my own.

I hope something crazy does kick. If it does....the hope of the prices coming down for this poor gentleman that started this thread will be shot for a few more years....if ya know what I mean.

Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles

I know at least a couple of those are already in the progress.

I know more then a couple....we will find much out if not this season then next......

Man I love Ball Pythons......It's like a box of chocolates.....you never know what your gonna get inside. Isn't that what the craze is really all about.....it's about "possibility"! It's about....."what if"! It's about "anticipation"!

Let the good times roll........

Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles
Link

Jim,
Have to agree with you. That is the fun thing about this. Never know what you might get. Even the little guys in this can fair well with a little luck. And if this does hit, $8500 for a "normal" Piebald might be cheap.

Good luck with your projects... John

Let's go have fun!

np
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Cathy Hrusa
poetichusky@hotmail.com
Future Ball Python Breeder
~My Ever-growing herp Collection~
0.4 Normal Ball Pythons
1.0 Albino Green Burmese Python
0.1 Bearded Dragon
1.0 Red Eared Slider
0.1 FL Cooter
1.0 Sunburst X Blue Veiled Chameleon
0.0.2 Firebelly Toads
0.0.1 Pixie Frog

I wonder how much of the Mojave price increase was the ghost Mojave combo and how much was speculation that a super Mojave might be a blue eyed leucistic. The phantom line that mothered the leucistics was originally thought to be Mojave and I've seen a pic comparing a Mojave to a lesser Platy (the father line of those leucistics) and they looked a lot alike. All three have very broad pattern elements. There does seem to be differences in color and variation in each line and between the three. Maybe other genes influence the color and the three are all the same mutation or perhaps they are at least closely related mutations (alleles?). Hopefully some of the female Mojave’s will be ready to breed this year and we can finally find out if there is going to be a super and what it looks like.

What a about a Mojave Pied or a Super Pastel Pied? Or even a Spider Ghost Pied? There's so much more to come. I hope we are graced this season or next with a Pied combo morph, just to see how spectacular they are.
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Cathy Hrusa
poetichusky@hotmail.com
Future Ball Python Breeder
~My Ever-growing herp Collection~
0.4 Normal Ball Pythons
1.0 Albino Green Burmese Python
0.1 Bearded Dragon
1.0 Red Eared Slider
0.1 FL Cooter
1.0 Sunburst X Blue Veiled Chameleon
0.0.2 Firebelly Toads
0.0.1 Pixie Frog

Just playing devils advocate…

Don't be surprised if you do NOT get positive replies on this forum. Many before you have asked this question and it seems that a few who own & breed piebalds SLAM anyone who questions pricing.

Piebald owners take immediate offense and jump all over these posts. WHY? Well, there are several reasons. Some have to justify why they have paid so much. Meanwhile, others would like to continue overcharging. Its simple. The Piebald gene has somehow developed massive greed among SOME herpers, while others just go along for the ride.

I like to refer to Angolan Pythons or the Boelen’s Pythons. Both are very rare in the wild and in collections and not readily available in captivity. YET you can buy either of these animals for less than a pied AND they are sure to be EXTINCT way before BP’s. If it’s a supply and demand issue…then why don’t these others sell for more? They are in just as much demand. Hmmm…

SOME Piebald BP breeders want nothing more than PROFIT. Long gone are the days when people kept herps for the pure joy of the hobby and sharing this joy with others. Its all about profit anymore for SOME people. People can try to say that its b/c BP's produce small clutch sizes, yet ball pythons in general still seem to be the 2nd largest available species for sale at herp shows. Can’t be that hard to produce large numbers since farms in Africa are doing it with much less knowledge of husbandry than some breeders in the U.S. Proof is in the 100's of FH babies for sale as we speak. Some will create clever analogies to other products and industries but when it comes down to it, animals are much different.

Please don't get mad at me for my opinion.
Am I jealous? YES. I'd love to own one.
Can I afford it? NO. I am a teacher and will probably never be able to afford it. BUT just b/c you pay more for something, doesn't mean its valued more or you're more serious about it. I bought my dog for $60 at the pound….some people buy pure breeds for thousands of dollars….either way, do they love, value or appreciate their dogs more than I? NO WAY! I think the argument behind valuing something b/c you pay more is ridiculous and has less merit than anything. It is quite insulting.

There are MANY people out there that IF they had piebalds or HETS, they would be willing to sell them much cheaper. I think its only a matter of time before piebalds fall into the right hands, as opposed to those who simply want profit. Meanwhile, we must indulge the few who wish to be the next Trump from producing Piebalds.

In the near future, some may be forced to sell cheap. Very few herpers can afford these high prices. Those that can, will start breeding their own. There are only so many out there willing or able to pay current prices. This small pool of customers will soon dry up. Its just a matter of time.

Once again, I am sorry if I offend anyone…that is not my intention, especially since I realize my comments are generalized and should NOT be applied to ALL BP breeders, as I tried to indicate by using ‘some’ in my comments.

Can’t be that hard to produce large numbers since farms in Africa are doing it with much less knowledge of husbandry than some breeders in the U.S. Proof is in the 100's of FH babies for sale as we speak

Ha ha yeah, raping ADULT females from the wild and waiting until they lay eggs is totally the same as raisng hatchlings from CB parents in North America and then CAPTIVE BREEDING those to get babies for sale.

The only proof in the HUGE numbers of WC babies for sale is that Balls are easy to catch in the wild and many people are doing it.

As for Angolans, well they are easier to breed (they actually EAT) and have larger clutches (sometimes) and Boeleni still has a steady stream on WC's coming in. You don't think that a PIED Boelen's wouldn't command more than $8,500. And I never heard any numbers of Boeleni being near extinction in the wild. Not at all.

You beat me to it Jeff ...

The African's are not "farming" balls they are harvesting them, digging up eggs and gravid females. Apparently there are a ton of wild ball pythons doing well in the crop lands over there. However, from what I hear, it's not all that easy (ever try digging out an animal burrow with hand tools?) it's just that there are few enough ways to make a living over there that lots of people are willing to work very hard for the very little they get.

It's also a lot of work to captive bred enough of an attractive ball python morph such as piebald to meet the demand. The high initial price is the incentive to get lots of breeders to work hard at getting this job done with slow maturing animals that produce small clutches. We've come a long way in the 7 years since this morph was first captive produced, just be patient Carl. Due to the attractive appearance and the small clutches they will always be somewhat expensive, but I suspect generally affordable within the next decade or two.

BUT....you prove another point...if this 'raping' of wild ball pythons is occuring on a mass scale to please american reptile hobbyists...then shouldn't breeders in the U.S. work to offset this by making all ball pythons more readily available & more affordable (regardless of morphs).

In fact, I think SOME (once again, not all) breeders have contributed to the negative impact on wild populations. Many people see how breeders are making money on new morphs and they want in. To accomplish this, some feel they need fresh imports to try and score the next big morph/craze with fresh/new bloodlines. This hope/desire of getting wild-caught BPs with a strange new look or new genetics can be a major contributing problem. Also, how many dealers are guilty of using wild caughts to outcross with the intention of bringing in new bloodlines? I think this type of scenario is an added root cause to the problems associated with dwindling wild BP populations.

I'll admit that I am not familiar with the actual farming process BUT since I posted an inquiry about it once on this forum and NO ONE replied to it...I assume that not many are familiar.

However, this still does not account for the plethora of CBB ball pythons for sale at EVERY herp show I've ever been to over the past 10 years. Ball pythons are only second to corn snakes, even despite the relative clutch sizes!

As far as Angolans or Boelens, well, I'm not 100% familiar with their husbandry but make my observtions based on the rarity in which they are offered for sale. I would DEFINITELY argue your comment of how there is a 'steady stream of WC's coming in' ????? Where are they? Is someone keeping it a secret?
My comment on extinction, or maybe I should have said endangerment, was simply to point out that other species are more rare and more beautiful than pieds yet sell for less.

I hope I don't come off as hostile or stirring up trouble...that is not my intention and I'm not that type of person...in fact, if we were in a bar, I'd buy you a drink for engaging me in interesting conversation!
Till then, Cheers!
~ Jason
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www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
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0.2 Green Tree Pythons
2.2 Ringed Pythons
2.3 Ball Pythons
1.2 Hog Island Boas
1.1 Argentine Boas
0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
7.8 Corns (various morphs)
1.1 N. Pines (Pituophis)
0.0.1 N.Diamondback Terrapin

I'm also interested in how morphs fit into the import picture. Are the normal captive hatched (wild bred) babies just a byproduct of the search for captive hatched morphs? I really don't think so. I think even without the occasional morph jackpot they would still be digging up as many eggs and gravid females because things are just that tough in Africa. I have noticed the price of imports creep up the last few years (you used to see $3 each in 100 lots). I wish I had good export numbers to know if it's increased demand or decreased supply (maybe they are finally starting to run out).

I don't think there is much short of a tariff we could do to possibly compete with imports in the normal market. I've heard that Africa exports as many as 150,000 a year worldwide. At 6 eggs a clutch it would take 25,000 females successfully bred a year to produce that many and I bet the price would just go down to $1.50 each and Africa wouldn't slow down at all. I don't think there are ten thousand captive breeders willing to dedicate 5 females (2 or 3 to produce and 2 or 3 to decide to skip a year) each to purposely produce babies at $1.50 in a probably hopeless cause.

I do think that at least morphs will offer a readily distinguishable alternative to imports. Your comment about seeing "plethora of CBB ball pythons for sale at EVERY herp show I've ever been to over the past 10 years" was interesting. Almost no (relatively) normal ball pythons where being captive bred only a few years ago much less 10 years ago. I bet even now the number of captive bred normals is pretty small and almost all are byproducts of morph projects (or new breeders warming up for morph projects). Very often imports are sold as CBB so I bet that the vast majority of the ones you saw where misrepresented imports. Eventually, today’s high morph prices will result in enough production of morphs to go around at a more affordable price. Then the average Joe can either pay $200 for a 99.9% chance captive born and nice looking say ghost or pastel or purchase a 20% chance captive bred normal. Morphs may not stop the imports but at least consciences buyers will have a choice they can feel confident about.

First off I want to point out that I haven't done much study of the natural history of Angolan pythons. It is my understanding though, that the geographical range is small and isolated. Thus, the total number in the wild may be relatively low so the animal is protected. The same is true for MANY animals here in the U.S. and anywhere else in the world. However, in their limited range, the populations of these animals can be quite stable and healthy with absolutely no threat of impending extinction. If I'm wrong about the Angolan's fitting this description, I'm sure somebody will be more than happy to educate me. I will appreciate the information though, as someday I would like to own Angolans... Maybe I'll trade a piebald for a few
Paul

I want to agree with you, but then i don't. Most things in the world are controlled by "supply and demand"property and goods). Yes, some is controlled by desire or greed. But in general, its about wants/needs and supply.

I am a gun collector(among other things) and i am shocked at the prices some guns go for. Are they worth it(maybe, maybe not), but the market is based on "REALIZED" prices. As an example, a gun could have a pre auction estimate of $2000-$3000, but you get 2 bidders who want that gun. After a back and fourth battle one collector gets that gun for $5,000. Was it worth it? Must have been. Now all guns similar to that one just went up in value all because someone had a brain fart and paid $2000 more than its estimated value was. Is that good, well if you own one or 2 of those guns, HELL YES. If your wanting to add one to your collection, HELL NO.

Is it wrong or right, who knows. But thats the laws of nature, been that way for 1,000's of years.

Also, supply and demand is not always what people think. just because something is rare, does not mean the supply is low and the demand is high. Ball pythons and in demand in general(from what i see). And yes, if the breeders of Piebalds are asking "Too" much for them, then they are creating the market. Not many can afford them and as more get into the hobby, the more demand there is. Even though the supply is not low, with prices high, the demand stays high keeping prices high and making more demand and so on.

Will new blood in the breeder world bring the price down? Maybe, maybe not. At this time i do not have a Piebald(have 1.1 100% Het. Piebalds). But when i do breed them and i produce Piebalds and the prices(market price) is say $8000 each, why the heck will i sell for $5000? Sure, if i need the money, maybe, but that's what, one or 2 hitting the market at $5000 each. Not enough to influence the market.

So its about what people are willing to pay. If everyone stops buying them at $8000, the breeders will someday drop them to $7500, if no one buys them still, they will hit $7000. And if long enough time passes and no one buys Piebalds(remeber, you would have to contact 1,000's of people to jump on the band wagon), the demand will drop and everyone will buy them and the supply will drop and demand will go through the roof and if you were on vacation and get back and try to buy a Piebald, you will still pay $8000 because there are none out there and everyone wants one...

Just my thoughts... John

Can’t be that hard to produce large numbers since farms in Africa are doing it with much less knowledge of husbandry than some breeders in the U.S. Proof is in the 100's of FH babies for sale as we speak. Some will create clever analogies to other products and industries but when it comes down to it, animals are much different.

That is where you go wrong. The "FH" babies you describe are from wild bred females. They are not farms in the sense of a full breeding operation. They just collect adults the right time of year, get the eggs, hatch them and send them to the USA for money. It is a very nice renewable natural resource for a very poor country.

But they do NOT produce them in the classic sense you mean in your post.
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AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

I'm going to pretty much give the same answer to this question as I did to the same one last week on the same topic......
But with a twist so Carl can understand.
If someone, anyone spends thousands of dollars purchasing a pair of pies, then why in the world would they be willing to sell any produced offspring to you or anyone for a mere $50 ( I asume that is all you can afford to spend on a ball)?
Let me try it a different way...
Bob buys a pair of pies for $16,000 because he saved up and always wanted a pair ever since he saw pics of them on Pete Kahn's website.... He feeds them, takes care of them, and is blessed with a nice clucth of eggs. He has 3.3 pies born.
He keeps a pair for himself, to add to his colony.... and wants to sell 2.2. He places an ad on Kingsnake.com, asking for the "CURRENT" asking price.... will he sell them?????? Will anyone be willing to purchase a pair of Pies from Bob???? Hold the phone, Bill just emailed him and wants pics.... wow, they are so nice.. 75% and 80% pie... and they been eating like champs... Bill lives only one state over... they both have next weekend off... hmmmm.... Bill says he wants them!!!
Now, why in god's name would Bob be willing to sell those pies he produced for $50 or $75 each, so that you could afford them????
That is the question. THAT IS THE QUESTION.
Not everyone can afford to buy pies at the current asking price.
You know what? if the pie market drops another 50% and they sell for $4K, there are still people that can not afford them!!
If they go for $250---- THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO CAN NOT AFFORD THEM.
Is this making any sense to you ???
I want a Hummer, am I going out and buying one? NO, why? I can't afford to purchase a $65,000 toy ( well, if I bought one I would want all the options
So, in closing.... no matter what the animal, car, toy, etc, there will always be some who cannot afford to purchase them.
Pies are priced, albinos are priced, Ghosts, Mojaves, etc are priced at the ASKING AMOUNT that people are WILLING to spend.
Once that has reached it's maxium, then the price will go lower, and a WHOLE new group of people will be motiovited to buy.
You can call it Supply and Demand, Trickle down encomics, Pyarmind Scheme, or Whatever.. it is how it works.
Crying about it doesn't do any good. PIes are expensive, today, tommorrow, and yes in 2010, they will still be expensive to most average "I got a tokay gecko" hobbyist.
That's my two cents worth...

Perfect sense!

First of all ‘bigsqueeze’, you very condescending AND to top that, you missed my point completely. I am relieved that you feel much better thinking you explained EVERYTHING there is to know about the BP market to me. In fact, you wasted a TON of time with what appears to be a simple point….not everyone can afford BP at these prices. End of story! I am fully aware that few can afford them, with the exception of wealthy OR well-established breeders who obtain them in trades. I was not questioning who can or cannot afford them. Also, does it make you feel better to ASSUME that I can only afford a $50 Ball Python? You are comical with your subtle insults. I was not going to contribute to this thread after I realized the person who started it was simply out to cause trouble BUT then you replied in a mean spirited manner.

This further illustrates my point (110%) that whenever anyone (usually newbies) post an inquiry about Pied prices, SOME that have pieds get infuriated (do I need to explain that term to you or your friends Bob or Bill? LOL). Maybe there should be another forum for the FEW Piebald owners that get angered by these threads. Maybe they need a dose of reality to see how nice they have it. Maybe SOME (not all) just get so high off the ground that they forget what its like to have a ‘wish list’ of herps. These questions will NEVER end regardless how much it frustrates you or the few other fortunate pied owners. I think this kind of attitude gives newcomers a bad impression of the overall people that deal in BP’s. It’s fine that we can ALL disagree, but it is NOT fine to BLAST people simply b/c they question it and you don’t like the questions.

I am also amused that you compared BP’s to a Hummer? Yeah, okay?! People can go on and on and on comparing BP’s to cars, guns, or any other material item in the world and it is just not the same. Besides, cars can be financed, leased and insured with much more ease and peace of mind than snakes. You can probably obtain a $50,000 Hummer much easier than you could a $15,000 Ball Python.

The idea of supply and demand cannot always be perfectly applied to herps. At a herp show that I frequent, I’ve seen one vendor attempting to sell the same pied for about two years. Who knows, maybe it sold or maybe its still available, maybe there was something wrong with it. Either way, there was ZERO demand for that highly desirable animal during the two year period off AND on that I saw for sale at that table. Supply and demand is too broadly applied to the concept of pieds when it is not always the case. Its just an easy out for the argument. People use it as yet another justification for high pricing. It is too easy for breeders to stock away pieds in racks until they get the high prices they want for them, regardless of demand. Hey, I don't argue that they shouldn't...I'm just stating what is the more likely scenario. Therefore, demand doesn’t really factor in until breeders wish to start new projects and create more space. Even you stated that if Pieds were half the price, some people could still not afford them so the demand is hardly that high.

Overall, I am sincerely and honestly willing to discontinue this discussion for the sake of others who come here and wish not to see such petty arguments and discussions that will never end. I’ll agree to disagree and leave it at that! No hard feelings, especially since I’m “too busy crying about it?” If you wish to continue…by all means, feel free to go on and on…all I can do is reply and attempt to provide my opinion in a more professional way than you did. And really, they're only opinions, so don’t be so offended by them.

Enjoy this forum for what its worth, life is too short and you seem too angry about it. No worries
Sincerely,
Jason

If you wish to continue this discussion, please reply directly to my email so we don't waste webspace. I think that is the fair and appropriate thing to do since most don't want to see this continue (me included)!

BTW, here is proof that I can afford more than $50 for a ball python... I paid $60 a few years back so who's laughing now...lol.

-Jason
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www.members.aol.com/northeastsnakes
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0.2 Green Tree Pythons
2.2 Ringed Pythons
2.3 Ball Pythons
1.2 Hog Island Boas
1.1 Argentine Boas
0.1 Solomon Island Ground Boa
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
7.8 Corns (various morphs)
1.1 N. Pines (Pituophis)
0.0.1 N.Diamondback Terrapin

My reply to your post was in no way a slam. It was an attempt to relay information. Was it mean spirited?? No, not in any way. I didn't not curse, call you names or under mind what you were saying.
What I did do , was attempt to explain why pies and other morphs are priced the way they are, and why they will never be sold in a pet store for $50.
I truely believe this topic is important, and that alot of folks actually read them. Hence, why I placed this one here, and not emailed it to you.
As soon as you place a price on something (BAll, Hummer, baseball card, etc) then it is fair to compare it to other items. It happens every day, so this is nothing new.
I can not explain why a vendor had a hard time selling a Pie at a swap meet. I can guess, but that would not be fair to him, you or me.
So, in closing, this topic will never come to an end as long as there are people wanting to buy something that they can not afford to purchase, and feel they are not being treated correctly for not doing so.

Well I guess if you want one instantly.....maybe you cannot afford one.

However, if you enjoy the process of raising and breeding ball pythons you can produce your own for minimal cost compared to purchasing a visual animal.

I like to fish. The fish I like to toss in the frying pan the most is a Walleye.......oh yah baby! I have purchased Walleye (fresh) from the store and cooked them up and they are delicious.
But....nothing compares to the flavor/taste of a Walleye I just caught. It should be the same.......but it's not. It's not because I caught it.....with my rod....the bait I chose....the location I picked....and the technique I used to haul it in. It's not as good from the store because my buddy netted it for me.....we got a pic and I put it in the live well. Finally, it's not as good because I trashed talked my buddy for the next hour cause I had the biggest fish in the boat.....

Balls are no different. Producing your own Pied will always mean more then buying one. I have a homo Pied and frankly was very fortunate and blessed to get it. Nevertheless, when I hatch my first one from my own effort, time, calculation, and patience it won't even compare....I will have a heck of a time selling it.....

My advice....get a 2004 100% het male and 4-5 2003 captive hatched female......maybe even some 50% het girls from someone you can trust. Save all your 50% girls that hatch out and send them back into Dad. When that first pied comes out you will go nuts!!!!

You can make this happen.......and I hope you do. the process is just as fun as the results.

There are many tremendous ball morphs on the market and certainly many more to come. But if you line up 30 morphs in front of me........my eyes get immediately sucked to the PIEBALD! What an exceptionally unique animal.

I have people come over that literally know nothing about snakes. Out of all the morphs....There are two that consistently make people go......"Wow!check that out!"

The Pied and the Albino. Spiders are cool....no doubt, Mojave....sweat, Lesser....holy cow...some day I will have one (can't afford it....). But at the end of the day if you line those animals up with a Piebald and you stick them in front of the general public for a reaction, (man I would love to conduct this study) my guess is that people will look immediately at the Pied and say, "what the hell is that....wow!"

Sorry.....got it bit winded

Jim Perron
Python Passion Reptiles

Right on!.... albinos and piebalds... PERIOD. Some of the others will remain, but these two are a sure thing for the long term projects.

The prices are coming down considerably. I purchased 02 hets from Snakekeeper last year for $4000. a pair. I have seen them for $2500. posted recently. I offered a pair personally hand picked by Collette Sutherland from Snakekeepers on kingsnake, one producing sperm plugs and a female ready this season for $4000. and did not get a single request for information. Their offspring would be what I would consider affordable. Piebalds are now selling under $7500. and I expect to see them in the $6,000 range this year. Yes, still very expensive for us hobbyist, but a reasonable investment for the professional breeder.
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